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<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
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<title>Sam Ruby</title>
<subtitle>It’s just data</subtitle>
<link href="https://intertwingly.net/blog/index.atom" rel="self"/>
<link href="https://intertwingly.net/blog/"/>
<updated>2002-01-17T16:32:42.000Z</updated>
<id>https://intertwingly.net/blog/</id>
<author>
<name>Sam Ruby</name>
<email>rubys@intertwingly.net</email>
</author>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/1.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-17T16:32:42.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:1</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>I like Dave's <a
href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0101359/slides/InfoWorld/slide0001.html">
InfoWorld slides</a> very much.  But to me, reality is much
more fractal.  Bridges are complicated structures.  <a
href="http://www.xmlrpc.com/bootstrappingTheTwoWayWeb">Bootstrapping</a> is
definitely the way to go.  But at some point the thin cable
becomes part of a larger intertwined structure that is a thicker
cable.  And that thicker cable becomes part of a larger
intertwined structure called a bridge.  And that bridge's
design is approved by nameless civil servants.  And
inspected on a regular basis by blue collar workers. 
Everybody plays a vital role.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP/">SOAP</a> is such a
thin cable.  What other thin cables will is be interwoven with
to produce the thicker cable that will become part of the massive
infrastructure that we generically refer to as the internet?</p></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/2.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-18T16:17:05.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:2</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>Hmmm.  What the beta of the slides referenced below
didn't mention was that Dave was going to use his <a
href="http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/01/17/020117hnwinertalk.xml">
Infoworld keynote</a> to argue against pulling the <a
href="http://www.w3.org/TR/wsdl">second cable</a> across so that we
can get on with the business of building bridges between all
platforms, static and dynamic alike.</p>
<p>Perl is a reasonably dynamic scripting language, no?  Yet
in that language, parameters are passed by position instead of
name.  What extra information can the <a
href="http://www.soaplite.com/">SOAP::Lite</a> implementation make
use of to provide this added information?  Why WSDL, of
course!</p></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/3.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-18T17:16:18.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:3</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>Chuckle!  <a
href="http://scriptingnews.userland.com/backissues/2002/01/18#l5702fc189772977d46290622ed3b0427">
Dave linked back to me</a>.  I'm new to weblogging, but I can
see how this might become addictive.  Oh, by the way, Apache's
implementations can invoke soap services without a WSDL. 
And any service which is described with a WSDL can certainly be
invoked without referencing the WSDL.  No lock-in here!</div></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/4.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-19T11:53:25.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:4</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div><a href="http://www.donbox.com/rumors2.htm">A mind is a terrible
thing to waste.</a>  Just kidding!  If it hadn't been for
<a href="http://www.develop.com/dbox/combook/">this book</a>, I
would never have done <a
href="http://www.zend.com/zend/hof/sam.php">this</a>.  Of
course, that lead to other <a
href="http://www.activestate.com/Corporate/People/Tech_Board.html#sam">
things</a>, which ultimately got me interested in <a
href="http://xml.apache.org/soap/contributors.html">SOAP</a>
(another product that Don is a co-author of), and, well <a
href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0101679/">here</a>.</div></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/5.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-19T12:41:25.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:5</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div><a href="http://www.washtech.com/news/media/14759-1.html">AOL to
buy RedHat?</a>  Hopefully, this is a precursor to a network
appliance OS.</div></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/6.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-20T12:42:36.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:6</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>Julian Bond in VoidStar <a
href="http://www.voidstar.com/node.php?id=690">asks</a> "is
WSDL <strong>useful</strong>?"  I personally was converted to
believe in WSDL at the <a
href="http://www.apache.org/~rubys/interopathon_planning_meeting.html">
interopathon</a> I hosted nine months ago.  Our goal was to
flush out any compatibility issues between soap stacks.  While
we did plenty of that, where we spent most of our time was
resolving issues where people couldn't follow <a
href="http://www.apache.org/~dug/interop_f2f_04_19_01.html">simple
and clear directions</a>.  People weren't sending things that
weren't important to <em>them</em> but may be of vital importance
to <em>others</em> (e.g. SOAPAction).  There were plenty of
transcription errors (e.g. upper vs. lower case).  And in most
cases, the error messages produced weren't helpful.  We spent
a lot of time looking at wire dumps.</p>
<p>Those stacks that either could make use of WSDL to create a
starting point (proxy, skeleton, etc); or could use WSDL
dynamically to "fill in the blanks" seemed to have the least
trouble.  At the time, Apache's wasn't one of them. We've
since corrected that in <a
href="http://xml.apache.org/axis/index.html">Axis alpha
3</a> with <a href="http://java.sun.com/xml/jaxrpc/">JAX
RPC</a> support..</p></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/7.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-21T11:51:19.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:7</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>Simon Fell has <a
href="http://www.pocketsoap.com/weblog/2002/01/18.html#a40">commented</a>
<a
href="http://www.pocketsoap.com/weblog/2002/01/20.html#a52">twice</a>
on this WSDL discussion, saying that he has no problem with WSDL
the concept, but has <a href="http://wsdl.soapware.org/">lots of
issues</a> with WSDL the reality.  I respect this constructive
criticism.  He seems to like <a
href="http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/01/16/endpoints.html">this
article</a>, but from his site I found <a
href="http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2001/12/19/wsdlwg.html">another
article</a> that I like better.  In any case, few people have
worked harder than Simon Fell on making interoperability work,
including <a
href="http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=soap-dev&m=100723899719241&w=2">
two</a> <a
href="http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=soap-user&m=101133132527185&w=2">
patches</a> to Apache SOAP 2.2.</div></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/8.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-21T12:11:26.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:8</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>I found <a href="http://www.advogato.org/article/395.html">The
Rules for Open-Source Programming</a> to be both insightful and a
joy to read.  I especially like Ralph's <a
href="http://www.advogato.org/article/395.html#4">more rules</a>,
and <a href="http://www.advogato.org/article/395.html#5">Sunir's
corrolaries</a> has given me much to think about.</div></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/9.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-21T13:07:30.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:9</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>LOL: Anybody want a <a
href="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2002027475,00.html">free
magazine</a>? <img alt=":-)"
src="http://static.userland.com/shortcuts/images/qbullets/sidesmiley.gif" /></div></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/10.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-21T14:43:14.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:10</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>After a year of being the chairman of the <a
href="http://jakarta.apache.org/site/management.html">Apache
Jakarta PMC</a>, it is time for me to call for <a
href="http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03189.html">
elections</a> to be held.  The two biggest things I am most
pleased with in the development of Jakarta in the past year are <a
href="http://jakarta.apache.org/gump/">gump</a> and the
establishment of a <a
href="http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/index.html">commons
subproject</a>.</div></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/11.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-22T09:48:18.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:11</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p><a
href="http://scriptingnews.userland.com/backissues/2002/01/21#l11dac66b4cfa462946003047c27bf425">
Dave Winer</a>: <em>Speaking of SOAP, and
WSDL, here's something to think about. Look at the <a
href="http://plant.blogger.com/api/index.html">Blogger
API</a>. No IDL. How did it work? It's very broadly
deployed and quite useful. It's gotten a lot of Web people excited
about XML-RPC. No one has ever, as far as I know, asked for an IDL.
Why?</em></p>
<p>Probably the same reason the <a
href="http://xml.apache.org/axis/index.html">Axis</a> link to the
left was added using <a href="http://www.vim.org/">vim</a>. 
<a href="http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/">We</a> are not our
target audience.</p>
<p><em>BTW, it may be foolish
of me to think that Web Services are for Web People, but well, I
do</em></p>
<p>Dave, I guess your target audience is people like myself and <a
href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0100887/2002/01/20.html#a19">Jon
Udell</a> who "have for years been in the game of dynamically
generating statically-served sites".  What about the hordes of
unwashed masses who aren't so inclined and seem to prefer <a
href="http://www.intranetjournal.com/pix/screens/netobjects/sb3_gallery.gif">
Integrated</a> <a
href="http://www.activestate.com/img_iis/komodo-autocompletion.jpg">
Development</a> <a
href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/art/figure6progweb.gif">Environments</a>
(<a
href="http://www.intranetjournal.com/pix/screens/netobjects/sb3_gallery.gif">
IDEs</a>)?  Wouldn't the world be a better place if there was
some widely adopted way to describe the messages in some structured
way ameanable to consumption by such tools?</p></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/12.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-22T10:52:44.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:12</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>Found on <a href="http://www.daypop.com/top.htm">daypop</a>: <a
href="http://www.google.com/corporate/today.html">10 things Google
has found to be true</a>.  Sounds good to me.</div></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/13.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-22T11:03:24.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:13</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>I guess <a
href="http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:e4cgtQpLiS4C:www.summer.com.br/~pfilho/html/lyrics/i/is_that_all_there_is.txt">
that's all there is</a> for <a
href="http://www.austin360.com/aas/life/ap/ap_story.html/Entertainment/AP.V6902.AP-Obit-Peggy-Lee.html">
Peggy Lee</a>.  Thinking about that song brings back pleasant
memories of my childhood.</div></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/14.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-22T21:51:59.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:14</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>Whoa!  Sometime <u>TODAY</u>, <a
href="http://www.google.com">Google</a> changed.  Instead of
providing <a href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0101679/">links</a> to
items that match your search requests, it provides <a
href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://radio.weblogs.com/0101679/">
links back to Google</a> that they will redirect to the correct
location.  This presumably affects referrers and could have
privacy implications.  I'm not quite sure what I think about
this just yet.  <font
color="blue"><strong>UPDATE</strong></font>: they changed it
back!  It was repeatable with different search criteria while
it lasted, but now it is gone.  Something to keep an eye on...</div></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/15.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-22T22:04:23.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:15</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>I'm sure that this is going to hit the tops of the charts on <a
href="http://www.daypop.com/top.htm">daypop</a>/<a
href="http://blogdex.media.mit.edu/">blogdex</a> shortly. 
Seen on <a
href="http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/01/22/2129229&mode=thread&threshold=0">
slashdot</a>: AOL/TW files <a
href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20310-2002Jan22.html">
lawsuits</a> against Microsoft.  More coverage <a
href="http://www.reuters.com/news_company.jhtml?storyid=NEWS.BW.20020122.2700&ticker=AOL&provider=bizwirenews">
here</a>, <a
href="http://news.com.com/2100-1001-820227.html?legacy=cnet&tag=pt.rss..feed.ne_8564303">
here</a>, <a
href="http://money.cnn.com/2002/01/22/technology/netscape/index.htm">
here</a>, <a
href="http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2002/01/22/aol-microsoft.htm">
here</a>, and <a
href="http://www.msnbc.com/news/692302.asp">here</a>.  Get
some popcorn, sit back, and watch the fireworks.  Me? 
I'm just a spectator... no way am I going to comment on this. <img alt=":-)"
src="http://static.userland.com/shortcuts/images/qbullets/sidesmiley.gif" /></div></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/16.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-23T13:36:42.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:16</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>Simon Fell <a
href="http://www.pocketsoap.com/weblog/index.html">says</a> that he
found the building and running of Axis to be pretty painless; What
more can a person ask for? <img alt=":-)"
src="http://static.userland.com/shortcuts/images/qbullets/sidesmiley.gif" />
He's looking to test out <a
href="http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP-attachments">SOAP Messages with
Attachments</a> support for interop with <a
href="http://www.pocketsoap.com/">pocketSOAP</a>.</p>
<p>Speaking of interop, it looks like I've not updates the <a
href="http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ApacheClientInterop.html">Apache
SOAP interop</a> test to run against the latest <a
href="http://www.pocketsoap.com/4s4c/">4s4c</a> endpoint and the
old endpoint has been removed.  Time to update the test script
and rerun...</p></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/17.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-23T13:49:26.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:17</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>What?  Could there possibly be yet another <a
href="http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=101172261800690&w=2">
Apache SOAP implementation</a> looming in the near future?  It
looks like HP is looking to donate a cousin to their <a
href="http://soap.bluestone.com/index.html">HP
SOAP</a> implementation to Apache.  From what I can tell
so far, they have better integration with <a
href="http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/">Cocoon</a>, and weaker support
for things like <a
href="http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP/#_Toc478383520">references to
values</a>.  Looks like there might be a good possibility
for synergy...</p>
<p>I especially like the consise statement of their
requirements:</p>
<ul>
<li>Required use of existing standards rather than proprietary
solutions</li>
<li>Required flexibility and extensibility that allows
adding/removing stages of processing</li>
<li>Required Plug and Play support that enables the customization
of processing</li>
</ul></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/18.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-23T14:43:24.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:18</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>It looks like there is <a
href="http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ant-dev&m=101171210929853&w=2">
motion</a> to resolve the <a
href="http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-ant/proposal/mutant/">two</a>
<a
href="http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-ant/proposal/myrmidon/">
proposals</a> vying for the title of the design for the next major
release of <a
href="http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/index.html">Ant</a>.  I
gave some <a
href="http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/index.html">advice</a> on how
to resolve this, and made an <a
href="http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ant-dev&m=101179450809353&w=2">
offer</a> of assistance.</div></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/19.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-23T21:17:55.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:19</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>Jon Udell <a
href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0100887/2002/01/22.html#a32">writes</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p><em>Richer
descriptions of messages, and tools that exploit those richer
descriptions, will make life even better for "mom" -- if this extra
sophistication doesn't gum up the works.</em></p>
<p><em>Is WSDL gum, or grease, or maybe a little of both?</em></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Answer: WSDL is a roadmap.  Both gum
or grease need to actually touch the moving parts to have an
affect.  WSDL does neither.  Look at a SOAP message and
try to find the reference to the WSDL.  It isn't there. 
Never has been.  Look at the <a
href="http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP/">SOAP specification</a> and try to
find the reference to a WSDL.  It isn't there either.</p>
<p><img height="148" class="floatright" alt="bridge"
src="http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/images/bridge.jpg" width="179"
/>Look at a bridge.  Imagine the
architectural drawings that came first and greatly influenced the
construction.  Can you imagine a bridge of any significance
being built without a roadmap?</p>
<p>Many SOAP stacks these days come with
automatic roadmap dispensers.  Simply append a "?WSDL" to the
URL and out pops the description of the service.  Many alpha
males will tell you that they don't need to ask for
directions.  But I suspect that these roadmap dispensers will
be heavily used.</p></div></content>
</entry>
<entry>
<title>null</title>
<link href="/blog/20.html"/>
<updated>2002-01-24T01:36:03.000Z</updated>
<id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:20</id>
<content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>In response to <a
href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0101679/2002/01/22.html#a14">this</a>,
<a href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0100864/">tav</a> writes:
<em>someone please tell sam that google has been doing this for a
long time now... i've noticed it on around 0.3% (totally random
number ;p) of google searches.</em>  <strong>Got it,
thanks!</strong>  Kinda freaked me out when I saw it, but as a
low frequency random sample kinds thing, it seems OK.</p></div></content>
</entry>
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