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<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="562" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?fit=1024%2C562&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Photo of Vina Colley in East Palestine, Ohio, on March 23, 2024. Photo courtesy of Steve Zeltzer." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=300%2C165&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=1024%2C562&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=768%2C421&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=1536%2C842&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=2048%2C1123&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=1200%2C658&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=1568%2C860&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=2000%2C1097&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=400%2C219&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?fit=1024%2C562&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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“Vina Colley was Erin Brockovich before Erin Brockovich,” Kevin Williams wrote in a 2020 Belt Magazine article titled, “The Poisonous Legacy of Portsmouth’s Gaseous Diffusion Plant.” Williams continues, 
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“Colley has become an unlikely citizen-scientist, spending a lifetime researching and documenting PORTS and its sins… Colley was hired as an electrician at the facility in 1980 and worked there for three years. ‘I was exposed to everything. We were cleaning off radioactive equipment that we did not know was radioactive. They never told us,’ Colley told me. Then, she said, her hair started falling out, she developed rashes, and ‘I got really sick and went to the hospital, not knowing that it was my job causing me all these problems. I had big tumors.’ In the four decades since, she’s faced a range of health problems, including chronic bronchitis, tumors, and pulmonary edema.”
</blockquote>
In this episode, we sit down with Colley herself to talk about growing up in Ohio during America’s Cold War atomic age, her experience working as an electrician at the Portsmouth Gaseous Diffusion Plant, and her decades-long fight to hold the plant and the government accountable for what they’ve done to her, her coworkers, and her community, and to get them the compensation they deserve. Additional links/info below…
<ul>
<li>Vina’s <a href="https://www.facebook.com/vina.colley" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Facebook</a> page</li>
<li>DOL Energy Advisory Board Information: Comments for the Record, “<a href="https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/owcp/energy/regs/compliance/advboard/colley_email2_11202019.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">My name is Vina Colley and I am a sick worker from the Portsmouth Gaseous Diffusion plant in Piketon, Ohio…</a>“</li>
<li>Kevin Williams, Belt Magazine, “<a href="https://beltmag.com/portsmouth-gaseous-diffusion-plant-legacy/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">The Poisonous Legacy of Portsmouth’s Gaseous Diffusion Plant</a>“</li>
<li>Erin Gottsacker, The Ohio Newsroom, “<a href="https://www.statenews.org/section/the-ohio-newsroom/2024-04-17/piketon-stopped-enriching-uranium-twenty-years-ago-now-the-nuclear-industry-is-coming-back" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Piketon stopped enriching uranium twenty years ago. Now the nuclear industry is coming back</a>“</li>
<li>Scioto Valley Guardian, “<a href="https://sciotovalleyguardian.com/2024/03/08/residents-in-pike-county-closer-to-justice-and-compensation-for-radioactive-contaminants/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Residents in Pike County closer to justice and compensation for radioactive contaminants</a>“</li>
<li>Sen. Sherrod Brown, Press Release: “<a href="https://www.brown.senate.gov/newsroom/press/release/sherrod-brown-secures-commitment-to-work-to-add-pike-scioto-county-residents-to-radiation-exposure-compensation-program" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Brown secures commitment to work to add Pike, Scioto county residents to radiation exposure compensation program</a>“</li>
<li>Maximillian Alvarez, The Real News Network, “<a href="https://therealnews.com/east-palestine-residents-demand-fully-funded-healthcare" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">East Palestine residents demand fully-funded healthcare</a>“</li>
</ul>
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<li>In These Times <a href="https://inthesetimes.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">website</a>, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/inthesetimesmag/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Facebook</a> page, and <a href="https://twitter.com/inthesetimesmag" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Twitter</a> page</li>
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Featured Music…
<ul>
<li>Jules Taylor, “Working People” Theme Song</li>
</ul>
<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
Studio Production: Steve Zeltzer, Maximillian Alvarez Post-Production: Jules Taylor
</blockquote>
<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Vina Colley:
My name is Vina Colley. I am president of a group called Portmouth Pike, residents for Environmental Safety and Security. We had been, were formed in 1989 or 1987, sorry. And we also co-chair National Nuclear Workers for Justice. We’ve been here, I’ve been working on this almost 39 plus years. I live 11 air miles from the plant. My county is where the plant is, and I live in CIO County. I was born and raised in Portmouth, Ohio. I lived on Tru Street, lived a normal childhood life. I went to school, rode motorcycles, was in the sports and enjoyed my childhood and grew up not knowing about this plant being out there. And so I worked at, when I grew up, I worked at various different jobs and went the high school. And my last job that I worked at was at the Shoe Factory in Portsmouth, Ohio.
I lost my jobs due to imports and they sent me to a vocational school and told me that I could either take welding or electrical work. Well, I decided to take the electrical work and as soon as I finished electrical work, and I was working at a place called Osco in town, and I was an electrician there for a couple years. And then I went out to the, what we call the A Plant, which is the Portmouth Gas Diffusion plant in, it’s located in Piketon, Ohio. It’s the largest facility in the world. It has two of the largest buildings in the world, excuse me. And sometimes some of the workers you wouldn’t see ’em for. The place is so huge and they had different shifts and sometimes you wouldn’t see these workers for a year or more, and sometimes you never saw the same worker ever.
But when I lost my job and went out there, I thought I was pretty lucky to hand this job. It was the highest paying job I ever had in my life. And for some reason they would say, you won’t get as much radiation here as if you would get on a plane and you would fly. So I never thought about anything about radiation, and the plant was called at that time, from 1953 to 1985, it was called With Your Atomic. So I thought they made Goodyear tar and rubber for tires because we had a place in town that had Goodyear tires that they sold. So I felt like it was a safe place to work. They gave me hard hats and safety glasses. They were always watching us to see if we had ’em on. And I thought, man, isn’t this the safest place I ever worked at?
Well, I was hired in 1980. I didn’t know in 1980 until I started reading some of the newspaper clippings back. I had kind of forgot about it. But in 1980 when they hired me, they had 111 significant radioactive releases. I didn’t even know anything about those releases in 1980, but they never had any alarms. The alarms never went off for the workers or the community. So I didn’t know anything about all these releases, but I was only there from 1980 to 83 before I started really getting sick. Had to come off work for a while and I was a healthy worker. This facility hired only healthy workers. They’ve been in production since 1952 until 2001, and were still not for sure if they’re producing anything now or not because it’s such a secret. This facility was a DOE, which is a Department of Energy, but in the background hidden. We were a DOD facility for nuclear weapons.
Maximillian Alvarez:
All right, welcome everyone to another episode of Working People, a podcast about the lives, jobs, dreams, and struggles of the working class today. Brought to you in partnership within these Times magazine and the Real News Network produced by Jules Taylor and made possible by the support of listeners like You Working People is a proud member of the Labor Radio Podcast Network. So if you’re hungry for more worker and labor focus shows like ours, follow the link in the show notes and go check out the other great shows in our network. There are so many, and please support the work that we’re doing here at Working People because we can’t keep going without you. Share our episodes with your coworkers, your family members. Leave positive reviews of the show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and become a paid monthly subscriber on Patreon for just five bucks a month to unlock all the great bonus episodes that we publish exclusively for our patrons.
And please support the work that we do with The Real News Network by going to the real news.com/donate, especially if you want to see more reporting from the front lines of struggle around the US and across the world. My name is Maximilian Alvarez and I am really honored to be the call today with the one and only Vina Colley. And I promise you guys, you want to sit down and buckle in because we’ve got a really important conversation for y’all today. As you guys know and have been hearing from our recent episodes, there’s something really happening here with this coalition that has formed out of the wreckage of East Palestine, Ohio. And we have been there working with residents, working with unions, environmental groups and so on and so forth to try to bring people together to address the ongoing horror show that residents of East Palestine, Ohio are living through.
After Norfolk Southern’s bomb train derailed and was five cars worth of toxic vinyl chloride were vented and burned in and around East Palestine around February 3rd, 2023. And it was actually through the work that we’ve been doing there in East Palestine that I connected with Vina. And so I’m going to go into a little bit of detail here to explain that. So if you guys will forgive me, the intro will be a little long, but I promise it’ll be worth it, right? Because as you guys have heard from the compilation episode that we put out from the conference that we held in East Palestine a few weeks ago, right? I mean, there was a truly incredible gathering that happened there a few weeks back. And Vina was one of the folks who was there with us. And as I wrote in a recent piece for the Nation Magazine, I gathered in East Palestine with those who answered the call to take charge of long, neglected efforts to get the care remediation and justice, these forgotten residents desperately need a call put out by the newly formed Justice for East Palestine Residents and Workers Coalition.
This alliance includes East Palestine residents, railroad workers, residents of other sacrifice zones like Piketon in Portsmouth, Ohio, people living near other rail lines, labor union representatives, environmental justice organizations, striking journalists and non striking journalists, socialists, Trump voters, non voters, and so many more. We heard and saw firsthand that even though the derailment has faded from mainstream media headlines, east Palestine is not okay. And in many respects, life has gotten worse for the residents there. These people have been literally poisoned by corporate greed exposed to toxins that continue to do irreparable damage to their bodies and their community. Many are still sick, still waiting for answers and aid from Norfolk Southern and the government still fighting not to be forgotten. We discussed how to pressure Biden to invoke the Stafford Act, to mobilize and expedite federal FEMA assistance to residents near the crash site in the surrounding area, and how to pressure his administration to issue a disaster declaration for East Palestine, which would secure immediate government funded healthcare for residents whose ailments and medical bills are piling up.
But what was most powerful about the gathering was seeing this diverse working class coalition of capitalism’s forgotten victims sitting together and discussing the basic struggles, hardships, and enemies we have in common. Everyone shared their own firsthand accounts of the many ways that this country is falling apart at the seams buckling under the weight of more than 40 years of corporate dominance, deregulation, disinvestment, and the systematic devaluing of labor and life itself. We all showed our scars to each other and we realized we’re all fighting off the tentacles of the same corporate monsters, corporate politicians, and Wall Street vampires. Anyone who has experienced tragedy in this country or at the hands of this country knows how quickly this country forgets its victims. When will we rise together to say we will be forgotten no more? So that is the question that we asked ourselves in East Palestine on March 23rd, 2024.
And I believe we answered that question by the very fact of being there physically together in that room at the East Palestine Country Club. The answer is now, now is the time to rise together. No one else is coming to save us, and we do not have any more time to waste. And one of the many incredible human beings standing in that room with me and residents of East Palestine was Vina Colley. And like I said, I could not be more honored to be chatting with Vina on today’s episode. Now it’s going to become clear to you guys as this episode goes on, why it was so powerful for Vina herself to be at that gathering in East Palestine. But if you’ll allow me, I want to give you some more context here by way of reading at length some passages from a really great piece by Kevin Williams that was published in Belt Magazine in October of 2020.
And this piece is called The Poisonous Legacy of Portsmouth’s Gaseous Diffusion Plant. And we’re going to link to it in the show notes. So in this piece, Kevin writes Vina Collie, a slight woman with a bob of thick blonde hair climbs into her white Ford Explorer. Collie is 74, and for nearly 40 years, she’s been fighting the Portsmouth gaseous diffusion plant, known locally as the A plant or ports. Her home library holds scores of totes filled with neatly labeled documents, a paper trail that exposes what she sees as portsmouth’s, darkest and most egregious secrets. The plant nestled on the edge of Ohio’s Appalachia is just a few minutes drive from Pike County, a long hour south of Columbus and 90 minutes east of Cincinnati. It was built during the Cold War in 1952 to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons in the US Department of Energy’s Atomic Energy Program.
Gaseous diffusion is basically a process of enriching uranium through a series of feeds and cascades. This particular process has since fallen out of favor as technological advances have made the process obsolete. The plant stopped enriching uranium by diffusion in 2001, and in 2007, a portion of the facility was adapted into the American centrifuge plant, but in its prime, gaseous diffusion was a big deal for Pike County. It was also Ali argues a serious threat. Vina Colli was Aaron Brockovich before Aaron Brockovich. By the time Brockovich later played famously by Julia Roberts in the movie of the same name was building her successful case against Pacific Gas and Electric in California in 1993, Collie had already been battling the A plant for a decade. She alleges the plant has duped area residence for years about the health dangers of its processes, and that the government has created an impossible to navigate claim system.
In response, Collie has become an unlikely citizen scientist spending a lifetime researching and documenting ports and its sins. Collie was hired as an electrician at the facility in 1980 and worked there for three years. I was exposed to everything we were cleaning off radioactive equipment that we did not know was radioactive. They never told us. Collie told me then she said her hair started falling out. She developed rashes. I got really sick and went to the hospital not knowing that it was my job causing me all these problems. I had big tumors in the four decades since colleagues faced a range of health problems including chronic bronchitis, tumors and pulmonary edema. Collie is not alone around Pike and Scioto counties. The stories flow as freely as the creeks. A child who died of leukemia, a whole family fell by cancer, an uncle with unusual tumors on his neck, a cousin with a stillborn baby, someone with kidney issues, and on and on.
Portsmouth’s Hidden Legacy has created a cohort of citizen scientists, homegrown atomic brockovich’s and residents who reel off statistics about isotope half lives, transera, Neptune and beryllium, like people elsewhere might talk about the weather or fishing. Pike County is one of the state’s most impoverished with 20% of the population living below the poverty line. According to 2000 nineteen’s Ohio poverty report, neighboring Scioto County is in even worse shape. With 23% living in poverty, the economics of the region have barely budged. In half a century, thousands of workers, a mix of contractors and employees work at the A plan, one of the only chances for a decent income. A recent hiring notice for a plant security specialist advertised a salary starting in the mid fifties, double the per capita median. Other jobs like a junior radiation protection technician require only a high school diploma and can make $19 an hour to start gradually going up to $36 an hour.
But for decades, Collie says the perils of these high paying jobs were kept hidden. And those are the people Collie has devoted her life to trying to help. So that’s what we’re here to talk about. And again, now you guys know why it is such an honor to not only be talking to Vina and for us to be listening to her, but why it was so powerful and so important to have Vina there with us in that room in East Palestine a few weeks ago. So with all of that upfront, let’s go ahead and dive in. Vina, I got so many things I want to talk to you about, and I know there’s, we could talk for hours, so if we need to do this in multiple parts, we will. But we gave folks as much context as we could upfront to understand why we’re here talking, how it’s connected to all the other things we’ve been covering on this show, all the things that we’re trying to bring together in East Palestine. And I just really want people to know you and learn from you, and I want to learn from you and your struggle. But before we even get there, before we talk about all the horrific stuff that you have and your community have been through over the past four decades, let’s go back to just yeah, before. So you said you were born in Portsmouth and that’s where you grew up, correct?
Vina Colley:
Yes. And Portsmouth is about 20 some miles from pi.
Maximillian Alvarez:
So tell me a little bit about that. What was it like growing up in your childhood in that part of the country when yeah, the Cold Wars going on, these nuclear plants are seen as the future and also the way that we’re going to defeat the Soviet. So that’s happening in the background, but you’re also a kid living your life. So just yeah, tell us a little more about what that was like, where you grew up, if you had a big family, what kind of kid you were and what you would do for fun.
Vina Colley:
I had four brothers. One passed away with a small cell cancer, but we lived on front street next to the river. We are south of Columbus, about a hundred miles and right on the borderline of Kentucky and Ohio. And I grew up right on the river on front Street. We went out and played, kicked the can and did all the normal things the kids did. My dad played music and when mom and dad both worked and I had the four younger brothers, mine was the oldest, so I did a lot of babysitting. But we used to go down by the bridge and we would have bonfires and we would bake potatoes and play. And then in summertime we would play ball with softball or baseball. I had a brother who was really good in baseball. I mean, he was a good pitcher and a catcher, and he’s the one who died of small cell cancer.
Maximillian Alvarez:
I’m so sorry for your loss, vna, and I mean that goes for your family, your friends, your community. I can’t communicate enough how sorry I am for everything that you have lost, but as well can’t communicate to you just how inspired I am by your fight and your continued dedication to your community and to justice. And I think all of us are feeling really exhausted and scared most of the time these days. And just to know that you’ve been fighting through this stuff for this long really kind of gives us hope that we can do it too. And again, we we’re going to get into all that soon, but I just love hearing this and love thinking about a time before all this awfulness when you’re running around and playing with your friends, playing with your siblings, looking back on that time, does it feel like it was a genuinely sort of different time in America? Folks are always saying, or do you think that that’s more just nostalgia talking and people are really looking fondly upon their own childhoods? I guess I’m just curious what the scene was like in those decades when you were growing up.
Vina Colley:
It was different because we didn’t sit around and play on our cell phones. We were always outside playing all kinds of games and hardly we ever watch tv. And then you only had the three channels and the TV wasn’t killing us full of poison like they do now. All the lies they want to and keep everyone at the edge of their seats, fighting family and friends over all this political stuff. We didn’t do all that back then. We had good times. I mean, we would slate. There was a big wall, a flood wall. We would take a cardboard up there and we would use it as a sled and just as many fun things. And we’d play jacks and hopscotch and we were always busy. We were always happy. And we would go to the playgrounds and we didn’t have all this turmoil that we had now, right now, it’s hard to even talk to a family member of the politics, especially if you’re a Democrat or a Republican. They have divided the families here over all this political crat is what I call it,
Maximillian Alvarez:
Preach sister. I mean, I think that’s exactly what it is. And that’s what I was talking to Chris Albright and other East Palestine residents when I was there. I was like, all right, man, I’m the crazy socialist that Fox keeps telling you as the enemy. You guys are the white working class Trump voters that I’m told are the enemy. And yet we’re all just here as people trying to not get poisoned by corporations trying to raise our families, trying to make a living. And the ways that corporate media especially and our politicians of course, and the ways that they have managed to convince so many of us that half the country is our enemy, is just a really sad thing to behold. But again, it’s like just by being there in East Palestine with you and with everyone else there and seeing that all wash away, it does give me hope that we can cut through that crap. But that toxic stuff has been flowing through the air vents of our culture for decades, and it’s not going to be easy to just turn the clock back on that.
Vina Colley:
That’s true. It’s just really hard. We have to look forward. We have to get rid of all the media people that are going out, all these lies. I know Fox News, I’ve watched Fox News, CNN and NBNS. I watch all of ’em. And to me, Fox has told so many lies to the families, but I can’t even watch it anymore. And of course they were going to be sued, but they can’t be sued because they claim they’re an entertainment entertainment show, not a news site. So to me, that’s just so ridiculous. I mean, if you want to report the news, you should report the news. People like you who are trying to get the real facts out, that’s helpful. That’s not pitting any of us against each other, but what you’re talking about is the truth. It’s about human life and what they’ve done to all of us. These big corporations, they don’t care. They don’t care about if you’re sick or if your family members are dying. They just want that money. They just don’t care. And this facility here in isn’t any different. We paid good jobs, had good money. It was such a secret that they would tell the workers, if you go into a beauty shop or a barber shop, you better not talk about it out here because some of these beauticians and barbers may be a secret agents. So we grew up in a lot of secrecy here in this town. You’re not allowed to talk about what goes on at the A plant.
Maximillian Alvarez:
Wow. Wow. Let’s talk about that a little more. I wanted to ask, when you were growing up, I mean it sounds like a plant was still like the place to go to get that good paying middle class job. Can you tell us a little more about your memories before you ever started working there? The influence that the Portsmouth gaseous diffusion plant had on the community, the role it played in town and yeah, other details like that. Even just this sort of culture of secrecy where you’re not allowed, they’re not supposed to talk about it. That’s pretty creepy.
Vina Colley:
Some of the workers back in those times, which it started in 1952, and I think production started in 53. And by 1957, there was five workers that were in the hospital that were sick and dying from the plant. And the health department in the state of Ohio knew it because the union had wrote letters about this, but they turned their back on ’em all because of the jobs down here. And workers, when they used to come home, they would take their food off because they didn’t want to carry any contamination into their homes. But I didn’t know any of that when I was that young. But as I talked to people from all this research, they told me that I have a friend Dorothy Mead, who just passed away, and her husband, Gary Mead, she said that he used to come home and tell her not to let the kids touch his shoes or his work boots, but he didn’t think he was getting sick from the plant. And she kept trying to get him to quit, but he didn’t want to quit because he didn’t think it was his job. So about the third or fourth trip to the hospital, he told his wife, he said, Dorothy, I think you’re right. And it is my job making me sick, and once I get out of the hospital this time, I’m not going back. Well, he wasn’t able to go back because he died of leukemia. He actually bled the death.
Maximillian Alvarez:
Jesus.
Vina Colley:
So growing up around here, they had a place where you buy tires and it’s a Goodyear Tire and rubber. And so a lot of us in the community thought that’s what they made was Goodyear Tire and Rubbers out there. So they have spatial tires that you can come in and buy on discount and everything was called Goodyear around here. So we had no idea. Most of us had no idea that it was a weapons plant all these years, not something that they made tires for. Goodyear and the community, if you ask ’em any questions about the plant, they wouldn’t talk about it. So we’re not allowed to talk about it. What goes on out there is a secret. So it’s pretty much a town that was, they went to work, they mind their own business, and they didn’t talk about the A plant because they made good money there and they weren’t allowed to talk about it. They could lose their jobs if they did.
Maximillian Alvarez:
Wow. And do you recall, again, because like you said, you didn’t even know what was going on at that plant until much later. But I guess, do you have any memories from that era of how this country was talking about nuclear energy and nuclear plants? And I guess for folks in my generation who have only read about it in books, did it feel like this was an industry that people were excited to welcome into their communities and be a part of as this kind of nationalist project? I guess, what do you remember about the kind of culture around nuclear energy at that time?
Vina Colley:
I don’t know too much about nuclear energy, but I know about patriotism. Everyone thought it was their duty to work out there, and they felt lucky that they could be part of this energy from there. But I don’t think anyone really realized that they were producing nuclear weapons at Python. Maybe some of the workers who understood it better, but the community really didn’t know. I didn’t know until after I got sick and started gathering all these documents. And that’s how I really found out in 1978 was such a secret out there. The workers had dropped a cylinder and it ruptured in 21,125 pounds of this uan Hexa fluoride was released into the environment and the water, but it happened during a snow season, so they were able to throw some of the snow on the cylinder and stop it. But there was a lawsuit filed by the community.
It took 21 years to settle, and that incident was compared to Three Mile Island. Until this day, no one has ever been told other than if I put it on my Facebook, because if I find documents, I did have a webpage, but they hacked me so bad that I couldn’t keep a webpage up. But I’ve been able to keep a Facebook up, and if anybody ever wants to know anything about Piketon, they can look up my Facebook vna, VINA, Colley, C-O-L-L-E-Y, because no one can stop me from posting what I find. But this incident, like I said, compared to Three Mile Island, and we’ve not been told today that we had this incident or have we been, were studied for that incident. And when I got hired, and like I said, in 1980, they had 111 releases and I didn’t know it until it all came out in the paper and researched.
And I helped the Dayton Daily move. I worked with them for almost two years on the story, and they came out with all of the releases in the paper. And so we didn’t get the date and paper here. So if you didn’t get the date and paper, people still don’t know here. People still don’t know what’s going on at that plant. Wow. We heard they wanted to start the centrifuge up and they did a test run in November, but we don’t know because it’s a secret. We don’t know if they’re still producing nuclear weapons. We don’t know what’s going on there, but there’s been so many releases that to remember that the Portsmouth facility is the largest facility in the world. We were supposed to be producing high assay uranium here for weapons, grade material, the highest assay that you could do. But in the meantime, what the workers didn’t know, and what I didn’t know is they were bringing Transics waste into this facility and processing it from West Valley, New York and West Valley New York ended up being, the workers thought it was a uranium extraction plant and it wind up being a plutonium extraction plant.
So they were sending all this stuff here to pipe then, and we were processing it and being exposed to things like titanium n Andia, bium, Marium C, them, you name it, we were being exposed to it without our knowledge, and we were not dressed, dressed to keep this stuff safe. Like they use asthmatic suits now, but I don’t know if they use it all the time, but they do dress the workers up in cosmetic suits. We were dressed in nothing. And when I complained about the areas being contaminated cut, because I was cleaning electric equipment with trichlorethylene and they had this oil on electrical components, and I asked what it was, and I just said it was just oil, just ordinary oil. And then when we get done, we had buckets of this stuff, we would dump it down the drains. So when I got sick in 83 and my doctor asked me what I was working in, he told me to go back and tell them to suit me up and to survey the area that I work in.
So I kept breaking out in rashes, and every time they put me on certain jobs and they come back and say, well, you are better than the instruments that we have out here to pick up anything. And so they had to put me on different jobs and my boss had to keep me with him. And so in 84, 85, I’m working and they put me on this electric equipment outside and I could see these little gray particles flying around. And I’m pretty scared because I got pulled off this job because of my breaking out. And what they didn’t tell me that this PCB oil was radioactive oil that was leaking all over the process, building every process building. Not only was it oil, but it was some of the product that they were producing. So once they put me outside and taken off these ceramic things off of electrical equipment and I could see these grape articles, and I put a mask around my mouth and a hanky, and I hurried up and took all those components out and called my boss and told him I was done.
So he came and got me in a golf cart and he took me up in a building, the 3 33 building, which this is one of the buildings they’re getting ready to decommission him real soon and put it in these dump cells. But he took me up there on the second floor, we’d been in this golf cart, and I said, where are we going? He said, well, there was a radiation alarm that went off. We’re going to go check it out and reset it. And before we could get halfway through that building, all this gray stuff come following us as fast as he turned around and took me back on the elevator. And we went down and I said, what just happened? I said, what was that stuff? He said, well, it wasn’t nothing. It was just a cloud of smoke. It was nothing. Well, I winded up getting really, really sick again and had to go to Dr. White and he did apathy on my throat.
And at the same time a guy named Mike who actually won a lawsuit against the plant in another one named Jean Farrell. And my friend Owen Thompson, we wind up going to Dr. White here in Portsmouth, and he sent us down to Cincinnati to see a Dr. Michael Kelly, who was an occupational health and safety doctor, which I went there two weeks after this gray stuff come flying at us. And I had two point 12 fluorides in my urinalysis. And one of the products they had out here is draining hexa fluorides, and they released a lot of fluorides. And so he said, I don’t know what’s going on out there, but you don’t need to go back to work. So they put me off on leave in 85, and of course found a way to take me off of the workers’ comp in 87 because they sent me to a Dr. George Esman in Portsmouth, Ohio, and he felt like there was nothing he could do for him. They wouldn’t pay him to examine me. And at the same time, my stomach is swelling and getting big. And he said that he’d not pay me to check you out. And so they took me off of workers’ comp in 87, and once they took me off of workers’ comp, the plant laid me off and kept me from getting 10 years then, but of course could you’re best at our pensions at five years, and they still cheated me out for five year pension. And so by 88,
Maximillian Alvarez:
Well, if I can hop in there just because I want to take a quick half step back to make sure that listeners are getting that kind of panoramic view of what you were seeing and going through while you were working there. Because even just the image you were talking about, about being on that golf cart with a manager driving through this massive facility and then seeing this ghostly toxic cloud coming at you and then turning around and saying, okay, job’s done. That is just the hairs on my neck are standing up thinking about it, especially knowing what we know now about what was going on at that plant. But I want to just like you were saying before that you and so many others in the community, so many people working there still didn’t fully know what was going on there. So I was wondering if you could just sort of take us back to that time working there when you started there, what you remember as a worker going into that facility, the kind of things you were being asked to do on this show to, we talk to people in the service industry, healthcare workers, teachers, and we always love to just talk what is a typical day, week?
What are the things that you as a working person are dealing with on the job? Could you just tell us a little more about that, your memories of starting to work there, how big the facility was, what you were doing? Just give us that worker’s eye view of your time working there before you started getting sick and eventually had to leave.
Vina Colley:
Actually, I was a healthy worker. I even had to go back to my doctor and they ran spatial blood work. I was so healthy, but that’s what they do. They hard, I healthiest workers because it takes us longer to get sick. But I had nothing wrong with me whatsoever. I had pretty good healthy genes and I would rewind motors. I did conduit. I worked on relays, but they hired me in as a second class electrician, and it was a apprentice experiment where they put us on all the jobs. So I was in every building on plant side and we’re talking, there’s 3,600 or 3,800 acres, and there’s all kind of buildings. They had all kind, they had two or three incinerators.
They would even get this black stuff from the steam plant on these people’s homes and workers would have to go out there and clean off their homes from the inside and out. And they did that when Goodyear was there, but they quit doing it after Goodyear sold out. But the workers were janitors. We’d go out there and we wore coveralls, just regular coveralls, and they started giving us, buying us boots to work at the plant with. And so we didn’t have to take them home, wear ’em home. And so I thought, man, I never worked in a place that was so safe to work or had safety glasses. They stayed on me. They give us a pair of boots so we wouldn’t take our boots home in case we stepped in some type of contamination. Of course, they never talked about radiation being at the plant.
They actually said you would get more radiation by flying in a plane than working here. So I didn’t really know what radiation was at that time, other than taking X-rays or something like that. But for these people, I mean, they’re not human. They just let you come in and clean up all this radioactive material. And maybe not all the bosses knew, but I believe some of ’em did. And actually there’s about 10 or 12 safety guys who wrote the safety for the plant, all wind up dying of cancer. And Chris, I didn’t know all this. And I worked on relays and I’D in conduit and I’d go in these buildings and I would see a sign saying, you’re in a radioactive contaminated area. And I said, where’s this area at? And they said, well, I was taped off over there. Don’t walk through the tape.
So they made you feel like the radiation, if they had anything there, it would be any contamination. It was within this yellow tape line. Well, once I called, my life changed at 83, I wrote a grievance to the Department of Labor, told them that I felt like they were more than 30 workers being exposed to radiation, but I really didn’t know what I was talking about. But actually down the road, I did know what I was talking about then, but I didn’t know. And then when I got sick in 85, the Department of Energy sent people to my house and they asked me the same questions over and over, over, and mainly it was about that oil. So I told my husband, I said, it made me feel like I know something that I don’t know. I said, they asked me the same questions about that oil in the trichlorethylene that I was cleaning with.
And I said, there’s got to be something more to this. So when I started digging into the records, I found out there was a congression. Our union in 1980 went to Washington dc. They stormed Senator Gwen office over the health and safety issues, and a guy named Bob Alvarez opened up his door to these workers. So they asked for a full investigation. And here I’m getting hired, and I know nothing about this until about 86 when I found out the union did that. But Clan’s office promised to help these workers and do an investigation. And when they came back to work, all they got was harassment to workers. And it was the largest workers in the world that went to DC and Storm Senator Glenn’s office over health and safety, radiation and safety violations. I think they had 576 violations at that time. Wow. And so Denny Bluefield, I have to say is one of my heroes.
He was the president of the union. He just died a few months back with cancer, but he took that union up there, tried to get us help, and all we got he got was harassment. So of course he was no longer the union president, he still worked there, but this is what they do. Anyone who complains about health and safety, they harass you. They have these red phones in the building and they said, if you see this oil, they had a concrete around the equipment, but if you see oil coming on the floor, you take this red bone and you call OSHA or the Coast Guard, I can’t remember which it was, it might’ve been the Coast Guards and let them know. But what happens when you use them little red bones, you are calling directly into the plant to the DOE office on site.
And so they know automatically who the workers are that are starting to ask questions. When I’ve been harassed, I’ve been threatened. They tried to get, my daughter tried to get me out one morning saying that my daughter had been in a car wreck at four o’clock in the morning. And so I went back and I checked in her room and she was in there. I’ve had some of the workers here, chick Lawson, whose house has got radioactive material in his house. He told me and my husband before he passed in 2018, that the plant had a meeting on site and his friend attended this meeting and that they want to find a way to get rid of me.
So I mean, this is in 2022, they’re still wanting to try to get rid of me. And one of the union workers wrote in one of the Ian papers saying if I was her husband, I would take out extra insurance on her. And I’ve had my wheel make tires. Well, the bolt had been taken off of one of the tires, and luckily it was when it wobbled, I thought I had a flat tire and I stopped and checked it, but it had no bolts on that tire. And so I got shunned in the community a lot people call thinking I’m a troublemaker, trying to shut down a plant, and I didn’t know what I was talking about. And as I researched and found out, we had piton that pipe them in the X 7 0 5 area, the E area where there’s an incinerator next to the building, and these workers were working an experimental job with piton.
They got so contaminated. Mr. Salisbury told me that he had colon cancer and they got so contaminated, they sent him to Oakridge for several weeks to get their body counts down. So you don’t hear these kind of stories because the workers, you know how men are, they go to work, they mind their own business and they go home. And so when they get home, they’re not supposed to tell their families anything about their jobs. And these workers told me that they had to get their body counts down because they worked in experimental capon at the site. When the compensation bill came down in 1993 in a public meeting, I told under an affidavit, I told them in 93 that they had plutonium at the site. So it’s in an affidavit and it’s in their documents that I told them in 93, they had plutonium. Of course, a lot of the workers, some of the workers knew they’ve had it since 1953 ever since they did the first production.
But it was 1999 that I was working with a lady named Mary Bird Davis with the institution of uranium wife. And she read the documents and she understood them, and she got a call and said, we’re getting ready to break a story about Paducah, Kentucky having Paton at the site. And she said, well, we had Patton at pipe. And she called me up and she said, viol. She said, I just got a call from reporter down in Lake Kentucky and they’re going to break the story in the morning about Theon at Tyson. And she said, the workers, three workers at Paducah must have filed a lawsuit and someone leaked it to the media and that’s how it got out. And so they knew that I always had mentioned the Paton at Python. So when they called Mary, she called me and she said, they’re going to break the story first thing in the morning one.
And I said, great, Mary. And she said, but the problem is they gave me credit and not you. I said, cares, you have a national group that you work with and who cares as long as the story gets out about the Paton? And so they broke the story the next day, and it was at the same time as Paducah. And they did one story about Paducah and Portsmouth breaking this story simultaneously. And so when the story broke, they didn’t want to put, they claimed that Piketon had one cylinder that came through that system that contaminated the plant with Piton. It was not a lie. And they down downplayed us. And then I pushed our representatives, I want to say thank you for Ted Strickland at that time, who was a Democrat and then joined the Barnovich up. He was a Republican up in Columbus. They all pushed, and especially Ted, he pushed to get us in that compensation bill.
And this compensation bill is called PEOI, CPA A, the Energy Employee Compensation Act. And they named 22 cancers in this bill. And if you have one of 22 cancers in this bill, you automatically get compensated for your cancers. And the bill was anywhere from 150,000 to 400,000. Well, they didn’t want to put ping in it, but we got ’em in there. And so we wind up being an SEC site, which means a spatial exposure cohort. And the reason they didn’t test us when we were getting tested all the time, I know they did a lot of tests on me, but some of the guys went years before they got a urine test. And in order to get a good test, you would have to take a test in the morning when you came and when you left, but they never did. They might’ve given one urine test.
Now, one thing that they made a mistake on with me was they put us in these in vivos because back in the seventies and eighties, women really didn’t work at the plant. So they put me in vivo. And when they did that, I didn’t get the records until just a few years ago that it shows that I have Neptune and a NEP magnesium and caesium in my lungs, and they knew and they never told me. So I’ve had my records locked up a few times and had to get ’em unlocked, and each time I get ’em unlocked, I get something in my records that I didn’t get before, and they eventually sent me these records on these three in vivos. And what they do, they measure your weight, they measure your neck, and then you lay in this machine like laying in an MRI, and it counts about body count of all of this radioactive radioactivity in your body, and Neptune is radioactivity and Maia is a radioactivity.
And so my counts were going up each year that they did it. They did it from 82 to 85 and one thing they check your weight. I was always like 1 39 weight anymore, but I went to 235 pounds three months. I swelled up like a big balloon and so been hard still getting weight off. At least I’m down 30 or 40 more pounds, but it doesn’t come off of me. I think the thyroid and the radioactive material caused my immune system to do a lot of things to my metabolism. And the government has admitted that they gave me chronic RY disease. It’s a lung disease, it’s not curable. They have omitted that I have neuropathy. They have omitted that I have congested heart failure. They have admitted I have digital heart failure, nerve damage from the neuropathy. I have lung nodules just like many of these workers have, and I’ve had four tumors removed.
Total hysterectomy. I had a tumor removed from the back of my neck. Three were in my ovaries. And so at the age of 32, 33 is when I had to have a total hysterectomy. They removed the three tumors and later I had the tumor in the back of my neck and it was, we removed and we did, I don’t know if you knew Dr. Rosa bat from Canada, but she had my tumor froze and sent it to a doctor up in Canada to have it analyzed. But at that time, the doctor was checking the Batton and he didn’t think that the gas acid diffusion plant had batton in it because we weren’t supposed to. So he sent my tumor on a shelf and then he got confiscated with his work. So I don’t know where that tumor went. It’s like a nightmare. Then in the process of Dr. Rosa Patel was a nun and she was very knowledgeable on cancers and radiation. Then she passed away a few years back. She did a lot of work on, I met her through the Depleted Uranium Group when Gulf War.
They used armor piercing bullets and they even shot at a tank. And we have a kid here in McDermott that was in that tank and got burned up, and the government lied to his family about that. His name was Tony Applegate. He went to school with my kid, but he was in one of those tanks that was shot with these bullets. And eventually Senator Declan got the records for Tony’s family and they had to tell them the truth. He wasn’t burned up in the tank. The stories just go on and on about these communities and what you have to go through. My brother-in-Law, he worked at the plant. He had a wooden leg and he got his leg contaminated and they had to buy him a new leg. And so he had these nodules like I have, and the nodules, something happened and it went in into lymph notes and he got cancer and he died a horrible death, but he had cancer.
He’d give his wife cancer. His son Troy just passed away three or four months ago that worked at the plant. He had kidney cancer. But you just don’t understand the impact that these places do to families and they don’t really care. But it was a big deal in 99 because they didn’t compensate a lot of workers. But the problem is there’s a lot of workers and a lot of survivors out here right now fighting for the compensation for their families. We are not supposed to be dosed and dose means calculation of the chemicals that’s in your body and the job you was on. Well, they can’t do that to us because they destroy the record. Guess what? They are dosing families who don’t know anything about this just to turn down their families so they can’t get survivorship.
Maximillian Alvarez:
Let’s talk about this, right. There are two really crucial sort of threads here that I want to make sure listeners are following along with, right? Because there’s, like you said, your life changed in 83 when you filed that grievance and you were getting sick. You got really sick in 85. You lost your workers’ comp in 87, and it’s been a process ever since then to essentially learn what you and your fellow workers and your community were being exposed to by this plan. And then on top of that, there’s been the struggle for accountability, the struggle for compensation for people who were exposed to these things. Can we talk about that first one for a second and then connect it to the second part? Can we just go back to that, the mid eighties and that sort of period, what was it like trying to getting sick, feeling these effects, not knowing what was going on and then starting this lifelong process to try to figure out what was poisoning you and trying to get the government or the plant to admit that it was doing that?
Vina Colley:
The plant, I don’t think is ever going to admit it unless we get the Rica down, winders compensation bill, refund it back in June, June, and if they don’t refund that, then this is something to do with the uranium minor, the Trinity. The Trinity blast, and if the community gets it, it would be 25,000 to 150,000 for certain cancers, and they’re going to link fees to the workers’ cancers that they had. But with the workers’ cancers, like I said, these workers are still fighting for compensation. A lot of them are, I thought from 2002 until up 2000, maybe 15, to get my compensation. Like I said, they locked my records up several different times, and I was lucky that I was able to get compensation because during this fight, this company, it’s not cheap. I maxed out five credit cards and I couldn’t quit. I mean, it’s just like an obsession.
You just can’t quit until you ask them at the meetings, you say, tell us what’s there. Tell us what you’ve done to us because maybe we can help you. Maybe we can give some suggestions or something, but we can’t do anything. We don’t know what we’ve been exposed to until you tell us, be truthful and be transparent. We can’t help if they would’ve been more truthful and would’ve listened when I said, Hey, 93, we got pian here. What can we do? The community would’ve been willing to work with them on this, but no, they’d rather just cover it up and pretend like you’re somebody crazy trying to shut the plant down. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
They have people who you used to talk to don’t talk to you because the company tells them that you’re crazy. You don’t know what you’re talking about. But now those people are realizing, I do know what I was talking about, because they’re all losing family members. And so the compensation bill is a good thing, but it needs to be fixed because there’s workers who are still fighting for illnesses that they shouldn’t be because they are a spatial exposure cohort site. But it’s like a nightmare. And I’ve learned so much and so many different stories that sometimes I think I’m crazy myself. Who in the world’s going to believe you with all these things that you’ve learned in these 40 some years about that plant? Who’s going to believe it that I believe now? I mean, the workers appreciate me a lot more. They ask for their help, and I help.
I don’t charge anybody, but I help put their records together if they need it. And then I have an attorney out in New York Hug Stevens who works on the E-E-O-I-C-P-A Energy employees compensation bill. And so if the workers don’t have the right paperwork before they file, they’re automatically going to get turned down. So it’s best that they know what they need before they fail an application, because once you get turned down, it’s hard to have it overturned. It’s not impossible. I’ve overturned my case many a times, and so it’s not impossible and it can be done, but you have to have the right paperwork and you hire an attorney, and the attorney can only make 3% to 10% for helping these workers, which is a good deal. I mean, it’s not like some attorneys who charge you 33% and take a lot of your money and you don’t get the money, but these workers will get the money if they get the right representatives to represent ’em.
But then I go back and I think about all these releases I was working there and they never told us. And one of the problems at piping is we have uranium, hexa, fluorides. Fluorides is a very dangerous problem to your bones, to the animals, to the humans. And we released this for 70 years. And my process, I felt like the fluorides, the plutonium, Neptune eria all of these products on together with the fluorides, and that’s how I think a lot of it went off site in the air. This is not counting creek and the storms, storms and all the C creeks that they dumped into. And the 78th spill went down nursing home road and went into one of the cricks that emptied out into the Scio River from the Scio River, 20 miles or less. Down stream is the Ohio River, so the side river from here, where this plant’s coming is going to the Ohio River, and from the Ohio River, it’s going all the way down to the Mississippi.
So whatever is being dumped at Python is going all the way down to the Mississippi. So people all along this area will be affected by this plant and not even know it. There’s a direct pipeline that I found that went from the plant into the S river for 70 years, and this pipe is being used again for whatever they’re doing at the plant. What they want to do is sell off this 80 acres of the land and claim that it’s not contaminated. They want to give it to the community reuse group, and they want to put two small modular reactors out here, and once they get the two small modular reactors back here, now we are going to be, guess what? We are going to be reprocessing or recycling, whatever you want to call it, transics from all of the sites in the United States and foreign countries.
So it makes absolutely no sense to me to spend billions of dollars to clean up a plant and turn around to do this very same thing. But they’re given 80 acres to put these, what they’re calling powerhouses in to s and satellite is going to sell this 20 acres at a time, $20,000, and they’re going to make a hundred and some thousand dollars off of this free land that they’re getting. I’ve offered to go out and take samples to see what’s in the land, but they won’t let me do that. They won’t let me have the dirt. And why I’m thinking about piss all these years, people think that these facilities, that the NRC and the CDC and NIOSH and all of this is on plant side and the EPA and they come in and they take samples and take it home to study ’em.
But no one takes samples of the radioactive material at that plant other than the DOE and the DOD. What they do, they give all these agencies, people, NIOSH and OSHA people, and they try to do by the book of NIOSH and osha. So none of these agencies have any jurisdictions over these facilities. So all these years I thought they had OSHA and niosh. They hire their own people for OSHA and niosh. The EPA does not come in, dig up the dirt and take the samples at the plant. The plant gives them paperwork and they read that paperwork. So who knows where they get the samples from because you cannot trust people, the DOE, nor as contractors because they don’t tell ’em.
We had one group here, I remember Owen Thompson and I, he was 42 years old and he died of a brain tumor. We went to a construction company here called Bo Coleman Construction. We talked to his secretary, Kathy Coleman, who’s now a commissioner in Portmouth, Ohio. We told her that Boone Coleman’s workers were taking trucks into the plant. They were loading the contaminated dirt on the trucks, had a plastic miner in the trucks. PI workers were suited up in their hazmats. The truck drivers were wearing nothing. There was either 17 or 19 family members of Boom Coleman Construction who died of cancer. Some were compensated, some were still fighting the plant for compensation. So right now today I talked to some truck drivers who are going in there. They are not suiting them up, so they do not learn from what they did in the past.
They just continue to do whatever they want to do. Same that they have all these years that these new truck drivers, Harry and dirt, I’ll, I’ll tell you where the dirt goes. We fought not to have waste on site. We did not want to be a nuclear waste site. So the community didn’t want it. 300 people showed up, packed his room down at Shawnee State, 25 miles from the plant. We packed that room. We did not want this waste. They let it lay for a couple of years thinking everyone would just forget about it. And then they took all of our surrounding county commissioners, these areas surrounding county commissioners, gave them permission to put this waste on piped in site. So now we have 12 waste cells out here, 12 of them. They disassembled the 3 26, the high assay building and open air, nothing on it, no canvas, nothing, just open air.
All this stuff is going into the air, into the community, into the surrounding areas. They took this stuff over and put it in one of those waste cells. Now they’re getting ready to tear down the three 30 building, the building that I was in in that golf cart. They’re tearing that building down and they’re going to put it in number two waste cell. We have 12 waste cells on site thanks to our county commissioners, no public input. They let the county commission. So it’s important who you elect in your communities because these people make an awful lot of decisions that you don’t like. We don’t like it. We should have never got it. Now all of them are pushing for these small modular reactors where we are going to be probably the largest hub. The nuclear waste that gets back to the railroad workers. They ship this stuff in and out.
They’re not protected. I had workers tell me we got 25,000 depleted uranium cylinders on site that give off neutron exposures, bedding outside DK stacked two or three high if the whole plant. They cleaned up some other sites like Oak originally thing and sent all this stuff to Python, 25,000 depleted uranium cylinders. They’re trying to convert some, I’m not for sure if they’re successful with it or not because they don’t talk about the production still this day. All that was still supposed to be a secret, but they’re storing these outside in the rain, rusty old, and we’ve had the most breaches with these depleted uranium cylinders than they had in Oak Ridge or Paducah. We had the most here in the Portsmouth site
Maximillian Alvarez:
Depleted
Vina Colley:
Uranium cylinders. They’re huge cylinders and they’re sitting outside stacked. They were stacked on the ground. So when we kept complaining about it, they finally brought ’em up on railroad ties or something and took them off the ground and painted some of them and stacked them up. Well, now they’ve got ’em all over the outside of the plant just sitting there and the cave and they give off neutron exposures. Railroad workers told me they would sit on the train with these cylinders sat on top of these cylinders. So one of my friends didn’t glaze. He told me that it was his job. He was loading, unload the cylinders, and we probably sat with the cylinders all day long. He died of cancer a couple of years ago. So the railroads not taking safety precautions for their workers. And then I listen to the ones up in East Palestine, these workers, they want to lay a bunch of them off and who’s going to be overseeing that? These trains are equipped with workers who know what to do in case of an accident. It’s horrible.
Maximillian Alvarez:
And I know it’s not exactly the same thing, but it’s kind of the same principle, right? That the workers who were on that train that derailed in East Palestine, the first responders who were coming in from not only East Palestine but the surrounding area because it’s, again, this is a small town America, you need people from all over the place getting there. I mean, those were people rushing headlong into help. And a lot of them didn’t know what was on that train and what sort of fumes they were breathing in. Just like the town knew very little about the contents of those cars that were going to be vented and set on fire three days after the derailment. And as I hope people listening to this can hear, and Vine is doing such an incredible job pointing out it’s not just that workers at this plant like we’re being poisoned and it sounds like knowingly or recklessly exposed to all of these things that we’ve been talking about for the past hour and a half.
But also this is not just staying there. I mean this concerns all of us in terms of the contamination that we may have already been exposed to for basically our whole lifetimes. I mean, everyone listening to this, we’ve got PFAS in our bodies. We’re basically half plastic at this point. This is this kind of stuff that accumulates in your body and your environment in your community, and by the time you realize what’s happening to you, it’s already too late. And I wanted to stress that for folks because that’s what we were talking about in East Palestine. We said, we can’t wait until a train derails in our backyard or a company admits they’ve been poisoning us. When everyone starts dying of cancers, we need to start banding together now and fighting to protect ourselves against all of this. And we got to band together as a class to do that and to see each other as human beings who don’t deserve this, whether it’s because of the Department of Energy, the Department of Defense, or whether it’s because of a private corporation like Norfolk Southern people’s lives, our communities, our safety, our health that matters.
And yet we live in a society that just so routinely throws us aside, puts us in harm’s way, tells us to shut up when we’re developing these health effects and then just buries us and forgets us when we die of the cancers we were suspecting, we were developing the whole time. And vina, I have two questions I wanted to ask you. Thinking so many things, and there’s so many more things I want to talk to you about, but I have to ask because you mentioned this and it’s like my heart was breaking hearing you talk about this, but as someone who yourself, you’ve lived in this area your whole life. You were a former electrician at the Portsmouth gaseous diffusion plant in the early eighties. It felt like a good job, but then you went through this horrible experience you developed, you were developing all these health effects, you were exposed to all of this radiation and just all, God, I can hardly rattle off all the things that you were exposed to. And then for four decades you’ve been fighting to tell the truth, to get accountability and justice and compensation. And it just feels so sad that now decades later, after you’ve been ostracized, after you’ve been threatened and people have been saying that you’re a troublemaker who’s trying to close the plant. Now some of those same people are coming to you years later asking you for help for applications because they are getting the cancers you were warning them about.
How does that feel? I can’t even imagine what emotionally that’s like to deal with to still, I mean, it’s incredible that you’re helping folks and you’re still fighting this fight, but I just can’t imagine what it must be like to have gone through this to be raising the alarm and ostracized for it. And now years later, it’s like people are coming back to you saying, you’re right. But what is it? You’re right because everyone’s dying and so many people in your community are dying of cancers at early ages or bizarre cancers. What is that like for you?
Vina Colley:
When I hear of a kid has cancer, he would give me flashbacks of a little boy. Last name was Ross County. Ross and I remember his sister sent me a couple and I still have a letter, a 50 post letter about her little brother and he passed away. And every time I feel like giving up, I think about the kids. There’s a little girl out there right now that’s got leukemia, two years old. Think about the kids. So you don’t think about all of the negative things that people say to you or whatever because they’re going to find out sooner or later they’ll find out. And what the workers say to me, doesn’t bother me, used to bother me because my brother-in-Law would tell my husband I was shutting down the plant and he wouldn’t have a job. So my husband, they used to play cars together all once a week and he got, so he couldn’t even go over there because Gary felt like I was shutting down his job.
But there at the end, Gary said I was right the whole time. So it gives you a good feeling that people tell you that what you’ve been saying is right. But then on the other hand, you have mixed motions because they’re dying. People are dying because the government doesn’t care. My government doesn’t care. You don’t know how I feel because I’m very patriotic. I have such a military background in my family. And so to hear that the government doesn’t care. Last night I went to a meeting in Pipe. It was supposed to have been a training session, but it wound up being a meeting and they were doing these forever chemicals and they have a huge problem there. And I told them last night, they talk about the plastic in your body and all this, but they had a huge problem with it off site.
And I let ’em know that I took two samples out of the crick on Wakefield Mound Road and one of these samples showed positive for the pfas. I said, it’s in one of the cricks on Wakefield Mound Road. And we had a problem. And then the commissioner was there from Portsmouth, Ohio, Brian Davis and I, him, I said, you all have a lawsuit in Portsmouth over the chemicals and you never told the community. To this day, they have not told the community. And I found a newspaper article and I put it on my Facebook and I told him last night, not only are we in Portsmouth, Ohio drinking this contaminated water, but we are piping it over to Kentucky because they had trouble with their water. And I said, you’re giving them contaminated water and it’s because you haven’t told the people that you foul a lawsuit over this and they’re drinking this forever. Chemicals and how do they get to these officials? They just don’t seem to think. They seem to think they’re invisible. They’re not doing it. They’re not. It’s unbelievable.
Maximillian Alvarez:
It really, really is. And again, this is what brought us all to East Palestine and that’s also bittersweet. And like you said, the motions are very mixed because while as I’ve expressed on this show, I was so inspired and heartened to see everyone there, including you and the folks, also folks from West Virginia who are being poisoned by fracking coal mining people like poisoned by algae blooms in Ohio, from the runoff from the hog factories, the CAFOs that we’ve reported on people in San Francisco who are getting radiation poisoning cancer alley in Louisiana, the uranium mining and Navajo nation. The very concept of a sacrifice zone is pretty horrifying in and of itself. And yet I think in a just society, the very concept of a sacrifice zone would not exist. And yet I feel like what brought us out to East ine, which is pikes in Portsmouth, so many other parts of the country, Curtis Bay here in Baltimore, these are sacrifice zones, zones that are being sacrificed, IE, the people are being sacrificed, the environment is being sacrificed because of government negligence, corporate greed or some cocktail of both.
And even though these horrifying instances shock us and scare us, I think what we were all there to and recognized in East Palestine is like this is what they have in store for all of us. This is where the future is going for working people under this sort of just regime of letting corporations do whatever they want, letting government ignore its own citizens even when they’re shouting for help and are fighting against being industrially poisoned. I mean, this is how bad things have gotten. And maybe that’ll finally get us to realize that the things that we think divide us are not important and they don’t actually divide us. The things that really unite us, like our right to breathe the air and drink the water and have our kids play in the grass without worrying that they’re going to be developing rare cancers because of some corporation that set up shop down the road.
We want to build a life for ourselves and our families and our communities. And if we can’t band together on that basic human level, then I don’t know what hope there is for us. But I saw that hope in East Palestine and I see it in your fight that you’ve been waging for decades and the fact that you’re still going out there to these other communities to warn them and to help them use the knowledge that you’ve developed through so many decades of struggle, you’ve done more than one human being should ever be asked to do, and yet you have done it and we are all grateful to you for it and we would not be able to build what we’re trying to build out of East Palestine. Now if it wasn’t for folks like you fighting this fight for so long, and so I just wanted to say that on this recording and really encourage folks out there to learn everything you can about Vina, learn everything that you can about this diffusion plant, read up on Three Mile Island.
We got to start connecting these dots and bringing ourselves and our communities in touch with each other so we can talk about how to fight this so we’re not fighting it alone in our own communities like East Palestine or Piketon and Portsmouth. I mean none of us can bear that load on our own, but if we all come together to help and speak as one, we may actually be able to break through. And so I just wanted to turn that into a final question, Vina, because again, we’re going to have to talk more because I could talk to you for days, but I’m so grateful to you for your time and for laying all this out for us. And just I wanted to ask a final question. If you could talk to listeners out there, why did you go to East Palestine? What do you want folks to know about what your experience, why they should care about what we were all talking about there in East Palestine and what you have been fighting for over there in Portsmouth for so long?
Vina Colley:
When I heard about the story of East Palestine, it broke my heart because this is a community and it was obvious, so obvious to the eye and to the ears listening to it that this train ran and it was like in a bomb that went off in this community and it’s a year with no response from the officials. That’s horrible. These people are suffering. I mean, I just saw a video where the girl was walking in the water and you could see the oil stuff come up out of the water and they’re breathing this chemical and no one’s doing anything about it. They should not have gone a year without help insurance, without help for cleaning up this mess and getting those people and relocating them somewhere until they can make their homes safe again. Instead they’re letting them there. They’re getting sicker. They’re losing their homes, they’re losing their family, and the railroad doesn’t care.
Neither does it sound like any of our representatives care. It’s time that they help these people. It just breaks your heart really. I mean, I’ve lived it for 40 years. What they’ve done to my community people, this was a day something that they couldn’t help. And this railroad workers, I mean they were exposed too. This train just wrecked in a community that was unprepared. They had no training or hama training, how to protect yourself. And we let them as a government, as a nation live in that for over a year without helping them. It’s just heartbreaking. I think about piping and what they’ve done. They’ve done it to us for 70 years, but this is a DOE and a DOE site and it’s much harder to break them. It shouldn’t be this hard for those people there in East Palestine, not at all. And so it’s criminal what they’re doing.
And I want to warn that these people, there’s people like Agency for Toxic Substance and Disease Registry that comes into your community and they’re going to do all these studies, studies, but these studies are bogus. We just got a released yesterday from A SDR about Python and they should be ashamed of themselves for doing this study. They looked at everything they could look at that they knew they wouldn’t find nothing in certain places. They left out a German did an epidemiologist study of PI and the surrounding county. We are the highest in the state of Ohio for cancers. Out of the 88 counties we are the highest and out of nation we are with a cancer rate there percent higher and nationally we’re almost 80 some percent higher for cancer here. Government knows it and they’re ignoring it. And then they release this paper that should have been thrown in the trash because this is the second time this group has come here and they were caught in lies. They don’t look for what, they look for places where they’re not going to find anything.
And here we would probably be stuck with this report, but we’re not going to sit back and take it. We are going to bash them. They need to know that they can’t come into communities anymore and try to keep their jobs and do what these corporations want them to do. The first time they came in here, they were caught in lies by the attorneys for the first lawsuit that took 21 years to settle. And so I still have that letter and I’m using that letter and they got caught up in lives then and they’re lying now. So we haven’t quite figured out because we haven’t went through the 90 some page report yet. But what we found in the first part of it was enough to say, Hey, don’t move this. Just throw this garbage out.
I want to say that in 2017 we had a school in Zion’s Corner that was shut down because with the company’s own air monitors, n Tanium and AMIA has been found in the school. Five or six kids at the school had cancers and they shut the school down. And would you believe today the school has got a ling fence around it? It’s still there, but ton’s going to get money to build a new school. This is one school. Do you know how many other schools are in within the two to three or four mile radius that they never have checked And the other monitor that belongs to the company, this is a company monitor around this school that they shut down. The other monitor is in a place called Radan, Ohio, 14 miles from the plant who picks up the same REIA and a Neptune that this little school did.
And there’s several schools in this area like Valley Northwest are in the air path of that air monitor. Anna White, the Secretary of Energy, knew about this other air monitor, went to Washington dc She tried to get help for this community and they fired her. I know personally people that was in the office when she came of that office crying, they fired her because she wanted to help pipe them. They don’t wanted her to help pipe them. And so not only in 2017, but a couple of press members, their names were Floyd and Donna Music both have passed since then. They came to a meeting at press and told us that those AA reports, the company reports showed that that school in that corner was radioactive. And so they went to the government agencies and they come out and told them that they didn’t have any problems and there was no problem at that school.
This was years and years ago. And somebody read the A report again and found that that air monitor was contaminated. I’ve had experts in here. I’ve had Dr. Michael Keer, he’s taking samples now. I’ve had him in the creek and he’s in the University of Arizona and he comes and he’s taking samples and we’re finding a lot of contamination off site of ton. Dr. Joe Menno did an epidemiology of this area and found a high rate of cancer. And he told me, he said, Voina, I feel sorry for your people. In all my years I’ve done this. I’ve never seen anything as bad as ton.
The other thing that’s going on right now is the compensation program. It’s about to run out of money. Someone put in Oak Ridge and Paducah, and this is the Uranium Miners bill and the Trinity Bill for the downwinders of the fallout. And they were trying to expand the compensation bill and these ladies down in St. Louis that live around a landfill trying to get added to the bill and they want to add Oak Ridge and Paducah, but guess what? They want to leave Portmouth out again. So when I heard that was coming down, I immediately had a petition put on by Jim, by Sally, Jason, Sally. And we got 300 and some names on it in my ground office and told him what was going on. And I said, they’re having a hearing right now in the Senate and they’ve left out the Portsmouth site.
And so his office said, send me all the dock that you can send me in a half an hour. And I said, A half an hour, I’m getting ready to go for a doctor’s report. But she said, yep, we need them in a half an hour. So Senator Brown got Senator Vance and they went over to the hearing that was going on in the Senate. Portmouth was not on the write-up of the bill yet. But when Mexico Senator said, I’m talking to Brown and Vance and we are working on adding Portsmouth to this, but Senator Brown and didn’t know about that. They were going behind our backs and pushed for Oak Ridge and Paducah the same way that they did with the workers’ compensation bill. And when I found out about it, I was able to get to our senators in. So it’s just overwhelming.
And we still don’t know if Portmouth is going to be added to this field because the Bill Gates and all of these corporate people have other plans for Ton. So we’re hoping council wrote a letter in support of Rica for the Python community and pipe and board of commissioners have wrote a letter. The Community Reuse organization wrote one and shocked me to death. And the United Steel Workers, the Union have wrote a letter and I asked the the Portsmouth County Commissioner Brian Davis last night to please write a letter of support on behalf of the people here in Scioto County. I live 10 11 a miles. I’m in Scioto County, I’m not in Pike County, I’m in Scioto County, but I’m 10 miles from that plant in the air miles. So they want to wipe out Scioto County, they want us to be a nuclear hub and they don’t want to focus on Piketon.
Someone nationally was deliberately leaving Python off this compensation bill. And so we don’t know what’s going to happen. We don’t even know if they’re going to, if Congress by now, it went through the Senate and it’s in the house. So if any of your listeners know any of the representatives that we have in the house, bill, I’m talking to Jim Jordan and I don’t know all the members of the house, but if anyone in your listening area knows anyone that’s in the house to please ask them to vote for the Rica bill and especially ADD and Scioto County and the surrounding counties from the A plant. And so I think a petition really makes people move. I mean, this is the first time that other than the compensation bill, our representatives had paid any attention to us. And it was with that petition. Maybe if the people of East Palestine put the line and it doesn’t have to come from them.
They can come from all these national groups. I’ve joined all kind of national groups just to get the word out about piping because we were not even on the map when I started this. And I brought to a big group called Alliance for New accountability work on people living in the shadows of these facilities. And so I did belong to a military toxic project. We worked on the depleted uranium and the Gulf War syndrome. So I’m begging your listeners to please help us get mentioned on this house bill and for them to re-up to pay the uranium miners and the Trinity. And we were a big part of Ohio was a big part of the Manhattan Project, but you don’t ever hear about that. New Mexico started in 1943 and I found out that Mount facility in Dayton, Ohio also started Manhattan Project in 1943. But for some reason nationally they don’t want to talk about Ohio. And Ohio played a big part, played a big part in the Manhattan Project. They just did that movie Oppenheimer, not one word was mentioned about the Manhattan Project, Ohio being part of it. One word. So if we’re going to tell the story, we need to tell the whole story, see the whole picture because we can’t get help until we know the whole thing, the whole truth.
I testify for human experimentation. I testified in Washington DC and I testified in Cincinnati. They had a doctor in Cincinnati. People would come into the hospitals and I have a list of all the hospitals that were involved. I mean there was a Dayton, Cincinnati, Columbus hospitals, the Dr. Sanger people come into the hospital, he would inject them with the baton to see how much they took and the government paid him to do this. Sad part about it is the government took away his money and he continued to experiment on people like you and me go into the hospital, we would inject you with plutonium. And so he continued to do that. So when they finally paid these people money, government would only pay the ones that they paid for him to experiment on. And all these other people that he did on his own got no compensation. He winded up dying of cancer himself. Dr. Sanger did. And the state of Ohio used this quack for compensation to evaluate workers. My friend Owen Thompson went to him and he told him that he had a cancer or a tumor, but it wasn’t big enough to be caused from working at the A plant. No one died, like I said, 42 for cancer. Dr. Sanger said he didn’t have enough exposure for his brain tumor to be related to the plant.
God has a way of taking care of people who don’t take care of their own. And Dr. Sanger was a doctor who was to treat us and to take care of us. He did not take care of the people he experimented on. He even had a young attorney here in Portmouth, Ohio that went to one of the hospitals. He was in his thirties and he was experimented on and he also died too. But I have a list somewhere of all these hospitals that did human experimentations and if you remember the OJ Simpson case, you remember when they were chasing him in this Bronco all over the place. The president came on national TV and apologized to these radiation victims and it was like a five second board. And then all day we watched a blanco run around the streets by these people who were experimented on Got a five second.
I’m sorry that we did this to your people in society. We just got everything mixed up in her heads or something. Our priorities. I remember our priorities of being a young kid was the family, the dinners and leaving our doors unlocked. We never locked our doors. People got along so much better, but we just seemed to be so much so corrupt now that we don’t care about our families and our neighbors. And I took care of my mom. I took care of my dad. I took care of my uncle. I took care of a few of my aunts people that were sick. They never paid me to do this. I didn’t because they were my family. Nowadays, you can’t hardly get people to help your family. My kids, they helped me. I don’t want for nothing. A lot of families aren’t like that anymore. I miss that. I miss that. I miss that.
Maximillian Alvarez:
All right gang, that’s going to wrap things up for us this week. I want to thank our amazing guest, Vina Colley, and as always, I want thank you all for listening and I want to thank you for caring. Be sure to follow the links in the show notes if you’d like to learn more about Vina Struggle and about the current fight to pressure policymakers in DC to include Ohio zip codes adjacent to the US Department of Energy site in Piketon, Ohio in the Federal Radiation Exposure Compensation Act or Rica program. According to a march press release from Ohio, Senator Sherrod Brown’s office, Rika enacted in 1990 provides a one-time benefit payment to individuals who have gotten sick or died as a result of exposure to radiation from atomic weapons testing or uranium mining. Milling or transportation. Rica is currently set to expire in June, 2024. Absent congressional action, Senator Brown was able to secure a commitment from the bill’s sponsors to work to add impacted communities in Pike and Scioto County to rka adding zip codes in Pike and Scioto County to the bill’s nuclear storage exposure provision would ensure workers and residents in Ohio adjacent to the US Department of Energy site and Piketon Ohio are also made eligible for compensation resulting from the improper storage of radioactive material.
So that’s going to do it for us this week, y’all. We’ll see you guys back here next week for another episode of Working People. And if you can’t wait that long, then you know what to do. Go subscribe to our Patreon and check out all the awesome bonus episodes that we’ve got there waiting for you and our patrons and of course, go explore all the other great work we’re doing at the Real News Network where we do grassroots journalism, lifting up the voices and stories from the front lines of struggle. Sign up for the Real News newsletter so you never miss a story and help us do more work like this by going to the real news.com/donate and becoming a supporter today. I promise you it really makes a difference. I’m Maximillian Alvarez. Take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. Solidarity forever.
]]></content:encoded>
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<title>Nicaragua. Sandino | Under the Shadow, Episode 9</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/nicaragua-sandino-under-the-shadow-episode-9</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Fox]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Tue, 23 Apr 2024 20:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Under the Shadow]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Nicaragua]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[under the shadow]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312375</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="638" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C638&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="General Sandino [center] and Entourage enroute to Mexico. Photo via U.S. National Archives and Records Administration" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C187&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C638&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C478&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C957&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1276&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C748&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C977&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1246&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C249&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C638&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>The US occupation of Nicaragua (1912-1933) birthed a brutal dictatorship, and the revolutionary hero who would drive out the US Marines: Augusto Sandino]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="638" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C638&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="General Sandino [center] and Entourage enroute to Mexico. Photo via U.S. National Archives and Records Administration" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C187&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C638&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C478&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C957&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1276&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C748&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C977&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1246&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C249&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/General_Sandino_center_and_Staff_enroute_to_Mexico._Siglo_XX.__06-1929_-_NARA_-_532357.tif-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C638&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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In 1912, the United States invaded Nicaragua and began what would become the longest US occupation in Latin American history. The occupation would birth both a dictatorship and one of Latin America’s most important revolutionary heroes: Augusto Sandino.
Sandino would wage a six-year-long guerrilla insurgency to rid Nicaragua of the US Marines. And he would win. The United States finally pulled out in 1933, the year before Sandino was assassinated by the forces of the man who would take power and rule for decades.
In this episode, host Michael Fox takes us on the trail of Augusto Sandino. We visit his hometown and then speak with <a href="https://www.history.pitt.edu/people/michel-gobat" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">University of Pittsburgh historian Michel Gobat</a> about Sandino’s life, the US occupation, and how it set the scene for everything that would come decades later, including the 1979 Sandinista Revolution.
<a href="https://therealnews.com/under-the-shadow" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Under the Shadow</a> is an investigative narrative podcast series that walks back in time, telling the story of the past by visiting momentous places in the present.
In each episode, host Michael Fox takes us to a location where something historic happened — a landmark of revolutionary struggle or foreign intervention. Today, it might look like a random street corner, a church, a mall, a monument, or a museum. But every place he takes us was once the site of history-making events that shook countries, impacted lives, and left deep marks on the world.
Hosted by Latin America-based journalist Michael Fox.
This podcast is produced in partnership between <a href="https://therealnews.com/under-the-shadow" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">The Real News Network</a> and <a href="https://nacla.org/under-shadow" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">NACLA</a>.
Guests: <a href="https://www.history.pitt.edu/people/michel-gobat" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Michel Gobat</a>
<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
Edited by Heather Gies. Sound design by <a href="https://twitter.com/coletivocatarse" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Gustavo Türck</a>. Theme music by <a href="https://open.spotify.com/artist/0nexDyQCZI89JH8zsYu5wa" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Monte Perdido </a>and Michael Fox Other music from Blue Dot Sessions.
</blockquote>
Follow and support journalist Michael Fox or Under the Shadow at <a href="https://www.patreon.com/mfox" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://www.patreon.com/mfox</a>
For background, see Michel Gobat’s book <a href="https://www.dukeupress.edu/confronting-the-american-dream" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Confronting the American Dream: Nicaragua under U.S. Imperial Rule</a> (2005, Duke University Press)
<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity" />
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
Michael Fox:  Hi folks, I’m your host, Michael Fox. 
So before we begin, I want to say that today’s episode is gonna be a little different. As usual, I’ll begin by taking you to a spot that’s important for understanding this moment in history — This week, I’m looking at the longest US occupation in Latin American history. But most of the episode after this is centered on one interview, similar to the updates I’ve released in recent months. I decided this was the best way to highlight this story. I’ll return to the regular sound-immersive style for the coming episodes and the remainder of the series.
OK. Here’s the show.
I’m at the central plaza of this small town named Niquinohomo. It’s on the backside of Masaya and Granada heading south out of Managua. It’s very homemade and grassroots. They’ve got these small little parks for the kids, little jungle gyms. And overlooking everything is a huge statue of Sandino, who, of course, is the main revolutionary figure here in Nicaragua. 
And there are statues of Sandino in many different towns across the country. Flags, of course, from the FSLN, Frente, Sandinista, Liberation, National, and Nicaraguan flags. But this plaza and this statue is important because it sits just across the street from Sandino’s birthplace. This is his hometown. And the little house in the corner, the blue and white house on the corner is where he grew up.
Kind of. Augusto Nicolás Calderón Sandino was born in 1895. The so-called illegitimate son of a wealthy coffee grower and merchant and his Indigenous servant Margarita Calderón. As a young boy, Sandino lived with his mother.
Michel Gobat:  When he’s young, he sometimes also helps his mother work out in the coffee harvest, working on large coffee estates owned by the wealthiest elites of Nicaragua, the regional elite of Nicaragua — That’s Granada, which is just a bit south of Masaya. So I think that also leads him to develop some sense of social consciousness.
Michael Fox:  That’s historian Michel Gobat. We’ll hear a lot from him in this episode. He’s the author of Confronting the American Dream: Nicaragua under US Imperial Rule. It’s about the two-decade-long occupation of Nicaragua by the US Marines from 1912 through 1933 — The focus of this episode.
It was a time when the United States was intervening not just in Nicaragua, but up and down Central America and the Caribbean, fighting what would become known as the Banana Wars in defense of US interests and profits for US businesses in the region.
But for now, back to Sandino. At around the age of 9, he goes to live with his grandmother and eventually his father, the coffee grower and merchant. And that is when he comes to this house on the corner, just across the street from the main square in Niquinohomo. I walk over to it. 
The home is preserved like it would have been when Sandino lived here. And it’s really well done; tiled floors, wooden furniture from the period. The walls are all painted this cream color with details, doors and the baseboards in baby blue. 
Otto Estrada runs the place and gives the tours. He’s tall, and passionate about Sandino and what he means today.
Otto Estrada:  Sandino is a light for freedom, which we admire.
Michael Fox:  Otto walks me through Sandino’s house, pointing out the details, walking me into the past. Sandino is larger than life here in Nicaragua — Think George Washington, but with way more humble origins. And instead of fighting for the independence of the United States, he was fighting against the US occupation for the true independence of Nicaragua, as we will look at in depth in this episode.
Hung around the house are iconic images of Sandino. But back in the day, he was just a teenage kid who worked for his dad.
He supported his father a lot, says Otto. His father bought and sold coffee. The train passed only two blocks away. And Sandino helped him. And then Sandino started buying and selling on his own. That’s how he was able to buy his mother’s property.
Michel Gobat:  Contrary to what people now think of him, he was also a pretty successful small-time entrepreneur, because he also becomes, at that time, a successful merchant of basic grains: beans and rice at that time that he sells. He uses the railroad, in part, to sell these beans.
Michael Fox:  But then, in his mid-20s, something happens. He ends up in a dispute over a business deal.
Otto says he shoots the thief, but then has to flee, because being born outside of wedlock means others might respond by trying to kill him or locking him up.
He travels to Honduras and then Guatemala. He works for United Fruit — Remember the huge, US banana company that we talked about in Episode 2 that would later overthrow the democratic government there? 
Michel Gobat:  But the most important thing is he ends up in Mexico and Tampico, which is an oil-producing region close to Veracruz, and works for US-owned oil companies. 
And there, this is the time of the Mexican revolution, the 1920s. He then encounters these militant labor groups. Some of them are anarchists, and I think that really shapes his political views. 
And that’s where he is when the Civil War breaks out in Nicaragua in 1926. He must be in touch with his family because he’s aware of what’s going on. He goes back and joins the Liberal army and becomes a general.
Michael Fox:  When the Civil War ends in 1927 with a US-imposed agreement and a continued US occupation, Sandino is one of the only Liberal generals who refuses to lay down his weapons. He has 29 men. “I will not sell out, nor will I give up,” he says. “I want patria o muerte — A free country or death.”
Michel Gobat:  He already controls troops, and is in a position to wage his anti-US insurgency. And his political views have also been very much shaped partly because of his Liberal upbringing, but also very much shaped by his experience in Mexico, where he encounters radical leftist ideologies from socialism, anarchism, communism. And also there’s a very strong sense of anti-imperialism in Mexico at that time.
Michael Fox:  I follow Otto out into a breezy courtyard and a garden behind Sandino’s colonial-style childhood home in Niquinohomo.
Otto Estrada:  Sandino fought against imperialism. He fought against the US intervention. But to understand deeper who he really was… He was a campesino who fought for rights, who looked for opportunities. He looked for truth.
Michael Fox:  In the middle of the garden, there’s this life-sized statue of Sandino: Tall laced boots, a gun in a holster around his waist, big cowboy hat, determined stare. Someone has draped a black and red bandana around his neck of the Sandinista National Liberation Front, or FSLN. That’s the insurrectionary movement, and later political party, named after Sandino that led the 1979 Revolution against the US-backed dictator.
What surprises me most about Sandino is his size. 
Otto Estrada:  5 feet tall. Small. Yes, he was small. You’re small —
Michael Fox:  Otto points at me. 
Otto Estrada:  — He was only up to here, though. That’s why he wrote, “My greatest honor is to come from the bosom of the oppressed. It is the soul and the mind of the Indigenous peasant race.” 
He was proud. Proud to be an Indigenous campesino. Only 5 feet tall. Small, but powerful.
Michael Fox:  It’s fascinating to be here, to walk in Sandino’s footsteps, to step into the past. It’s also fascinating to see old celebratory images of the US Marines shipping off to Nicaragua — Remember, this is the 1910s and the 1920s, the early years of film. But you can actually find a lot of these old videos online on YouTube. They’re all silent, or I’d be playing them for you here. Sound only began accompanying film in the late ‘20s and early ‘30s.
The movies show rows and rows of US Marines in uniform, marching with rifles and bayonets, or boarding ships, being sent off for their tour of duty in far away Nicaragua by large, exuberant crowds. Thousands of US Marines would invade Nicaragua and be stationed there over the more than two decades that the US would occupy the country.
Otto Estrada:  Basically, Nicaragua, for the United States, they look at it as their backyard, and they felt they could do what they wanted with it. They had their eyes on our natural resources. We don’t have oil, we don’t have a lot of gold, but they saw that our resources would be important in the future. They wanted to dominate. 
And they’ve been invading since the mid-1850s; William Walker, then bananas. They didn’t come here to help, they came to appropriate our resources. What we have in large quantities is water. They came always with their boots. Nicaragua always under the boot of the United States.
But unfortunately, they saw that the children of Sandino remain. And we would not let the US have what they wanted. Because, as Sandino said, “My cause is the cause of my people. The cause of the oppressed people in Nicaragua and across Latin America.”
Michael Fox:  It is impossible to understand what comes later — The Somoza dictatorship, the 1979 Sandinista revolution — Without grasping the role of the United States in its longest occupation in Latin American history and the independence struggle of Augusto Sandino.
That in a minute.
[Under the Shadow theme music]
This is Under the Shadow — An investigative narrative podcast series that walks back in time to tell the story of the past by visiting momentous places in the present. 
This podcast is a co-production in partnership with The Real News and NACLA.
I’m your host, Michael Fox — Longtime radio reporter, editor, journalist. The producer and host of the podcast Brazil on Fire. I’ve spent the better part of the last twenty years in Latin America. 
I’ve seen firsthand the role of the US government abroad. And most often, sadly, it is not for the better: invasions, coups, sanctions, support for authoritarian regimes. Politically and economically, the United States has cast a long shadow over Latin America for the past 200 years.
In each episode in this series, I will take you to a location where something historic happened — A landmark of revolutionary struggle or foreign intervention. Today, it might look like a random street corner, a church, a mall, a monument, or a museum. But every place I’m going to bring you was once the site of history-making events that shook countries, impacted lives, and left deep marks on the world. I’ll try to discover what lingers of that history today. 
In the last episode, I retraced the steps of US filibuster William Walker as he invaded Nicaragua and took over the country. Today, I look at the country a half century later, amid the longest US occupation in Latin American history, and how it birthed both a revolutionary icon and a devastating dictator. 
This is Under the Shadow Season 1: Central America, Episode 9: “Nicaragua. Sandino.” 
[Music]
So as I mentioned at the start of this episode, today I’m going to walk back in time with Professor Michel Gobat. He is a professor of Latin American history at the University of Pittsburgh. His focus is on US intervention in Central America, and, in particular, the Central American response to US intervention. We heard from him a lot in the last episode on William Walker, and he’ll be with us for the rest of today. 
[INTERVIEW BEGINS]
Michael Fox:  Michel, thank you so much for joining. I’m really excited to have you on. 
Michel Gobat:  Thanks for having me. 
Michael Fox:  Michel, first off, when we mention the longest US occupation in Latin America, most people probably would never imagine that this was Nicaragua. They just don’t know that moment. 
And it’s also one of the longest US occupations in the world, right? If we’re looking back historically, 21 years, that’s longer than Afghanistan, it’s longer than Vietnam. Of course, those were wars. This is an occupation. A little bit different. But still, I think it’s fascinating. This is a period that we just don’t remember.
Michel Gobat:  I was struck when I started teaching as a history professor. This was my first job, at the University of Iowa, and so the first courses I taught were before the US invasion of Iraq. And when was that… 2003, ‘04, ‘05? I don’t remember anymore. My students, my undergraduates, were shocked to hear that the US occupied other countries. So I think that generation was totally oblivious to the fact that the US actually occupied other countries for a lengthy period.
I think if I had talked to undergraduates in the 1980s, it probably would be a bit different because Reagan’s anti-communist crusade that was waged mainly in Central America, it was certainly on people’s minds. You had a strong Central American peace movement and solidarity movement in the US. 
But prior to then, yes, I think Nicaragua is certainly not on people’s mind. And now it’s probably, if it’s on people’s mind, it’s maybe more because of immigration or because of the political situation in Nicaragua. But I think you’re right. People nowadays also don’t remember this. 
But in the moment, in the 1910s, and particularly the 1920s, a large sector of the US public was actually aware of the US occupation of Nicaragua because that triggered an early solidarity movement in the US — We’re talking about the late 1920s — That turned the leader of an anti-US insurgency in Nicaragua. That is the one led by Augusto Sandino. That turned the leader, Sandino, into arguably one of the world’s first major anti-imperialist heroes of the era. So at that moment, people would have known.
Michael Fox:  Wow. So he was like the Che Guevara of the 1920s, 1930s.
Michel Gobat:  [Laughs] If you want to put it that way [Fox laughs], that might be a nice way to sell a biography of him.
But just to give you a sense. When the Chinese nationalists, when they were waging their own war in the late ‘20s against the pro-Japanese puppet regime based in Beijing, when they marched into Beijing, they marched with huge placards, portraits of Sandino. They, in fact, also named one of their battalions after Sandino.
Keep in mind, this is before we have the Internet, before we have the web. And so there were pro-Sandino movements throughout Latin America, in the US, in Europe, and also, apparently, parts of Asia. 
Michael Fox:  Wow, that’s fascinating. 
Michel Gobat:  But people’s historical memory comes and goes. 
Michael Fox:  That’s right. 
Before we dive into Nicaragua, I want to talk about the US; the context of the US role in the region at that time. Because it wasn’t just the Nicaragua occupation, which we’ll talk about in a couple of minutes. But you also had the US invading, sending Marines all across the region: 19-year occupation in Haiti, 8-year Dominican Republic occupation, invasions, Cuba, Mexico, Honduras, Panama. 
And all of this comes, obviously, in the wake of the Roosevelt corollary to the Monroe Doctrine in 1904, which basically puts Monroe on steroids, giving the US justification. 
But can you talk about this larger context of the United States at that time and the US role in the region?
Michel Gobat:  Right. Well, it begins with, many people would say, the War of 1898, when the US invades Cuba — Officially to liberate, to help Cubans who are waging their own war of independence, liberate the island from Spanish colonial rule that began early on in the 1500s. 
And then, quickly, that war expanded into the Pacific. And with the US triumph over Spain, the US acquired territories not just in the Caribbean, mainly Cuba, but basically Cuba and Puerto Rico, and then, also in the Pacific, the Philippines, mainly Philippines and Guam.
And so there are different interpretations. Some scholars, or many scholars in the US, for a long time saw this as an accident. There’s an un-American thing to go out and acquire territories, and largely they saw this as a response to what the European imperialists were doing at that time. So there’s the so-called scramble for Africa, and in Asia too.
And so a lot of historians believe that the US was forced to play this, what Mark Twain called the un-American game, as a way to defend national security. In other words, if the US did not do this, the Caribbean would really be consolidated as a European lake, and that would threaten US national security. 
And that’s why someone like Roosevelt could invoke the Monroe Doctrine, because the Monroe Doctrine, in many ways, is all about keeping Europe out of the Americas as a way of defending US national security. And so that’s how he could, in turn, invoke the Monroe Doctrine to basically justify, even more blatantly than Monroe, US intervention in Latin America. 
A very different way of looking at it is that this is not at all un-American. This is part of the DNA of US political culture. And so these are people, these are scholars like Walter LaFeber who would say this is a new form of Manifest Destiny. So they call this the era of New Manifest Destiny. 
In other words, this is a continuation of the Manifest Destiny expansion of the mid-19th century that was cut short by the US Civil War, and that it took the US a couple of decades to recuperate from the destruction wrought by this war. And that by the 1890s, the US was again ready to expand. 
And not coincidentally, it certainly expanded first toward Hawaii. In 1892, there was a pro-US coup that overthrew the monarchy, and there was already talk about annexing Hawaii then that didn’t occur until 1898. And then moving further west, towards China. But it’s not coincidental that the main thrust was south into Latin America, which also happened in the mid-19th century. 
And so for them, the idea is that this is just a natural evolution of US history that was cut short by the occupation.
And then there’s a third group that basically says that it was essentially for economic reasons that the US expanded. This is a moment, the 1890s, where you have a major economic crisis plaguing the US. And so the idea was that the US would try to solve its economic problem by creating new markets abroad for US products. So this is often associated with the Open Door policy. 
Those are the three main interests. So the point here is that one is more geostrategic, that the US is a reluctant imperialist. The second is that this is part of US political culture, and the third sees this more in economic terms. But whatever it is, it shows that the US is interested in Latin America, particularly in the Caribbean, as a region. 
So you’re right that the US occupation of Nicaragua should not be seen as an isolated incident, but it’s important to connect that US occupation with other interventions in the area. And that’s why some scholars don’t like the term “intervention”, because intervention suggests that these are isolated incidents that are not connected with each other. 
There are scholars who argue that the more appropriate term is to use the concept of imperialism, because then you can see how the US is trying to create what some scholars would argue is an informal empire — Because it’s an empire based on US control of independent nations, largely by turning them to protectorates, but not turning them into formal colonies, with the exception of Puerto Rico. In other words, these territories are not formally incorporated into the US. They remain independent, but clearly the US exerts extraordinary influence over their internal affairs.
And, of course, with each country you have different interests at play. Some countries, more economic interests predominate. In others, it’s more strategic. So there are obviously differences, but I think it’s important to see see the connections among them all 
Michael Fox:  Completely. So let’s dive into Nicaragua. Take us back to that moment in the beginning, in the lead up to the occupation. Why did the US occupy Nicaragua for 21 years? What was happening at the time? 
Michel Gobat:  Well, in the case of Nicaragua, I would argue that it’s largely strategic interests. Some people would argue that this is part of dollar diplomacy, where diplomacy helps dollars. In other words, that the US government is doing the bidding of US corporations. 
And when we’re talking about a place like Nicaragua, we’re talking about Central America. Often scholars think we’re talking mainly about fruit companies, like the United Fruit Company that was established in 1899 and then quickly came to control or establish large banana plantations throughout Central America, mainly on the Caribbean coast, from Guatemala all the way down to Panama. And there were certainly banana plantations in Nicaragua. Not as large as, let’s say, in Guatemala, Honduras, or in Costa Rica, but they were certainly there.
But the main reason why the US government was so interested in Nicaragua had to do with the canal. Nicaragua’s often been seen, together with Panama, as the ideal site for a canal. And the need for the US to control a canal through Central America became even more urgent with the War of 1898, when battleships that were in the Pacific had to go all the way around the tip of South America to reach the Caribbean. So it became even more urgent. 
But US dreams of a Central American canal go all the way back to the founding of the United States. Already Thomas Jefferson was talking about the need to create a canal. So there are long-standing US plans to create a canal in Central America. 
And in the end it was Panama. The US construction on the Panama Canal began in 1904 and lasted for 10 years. In 1914, it was opened. But for a long time, up to 1904, Nicaragua was seen as the so-called America route. That means the US government was mainly interested in Nicaragua, not Panama. Panama was more associated with European initiatives particularly. 
And it wasn’t until the very end, even in 1903, when US Congress finally decided to construct the canal in Panama. I forget exactly what month that was, but a few months earlier, if I’m not mistaken, they took a vote again on the canal, and it was Nicaragua, that one. So up to close to the very end, it seemed like the US was going to build the canal through Nicaragua and not Panama. 
But in the end, it went for Panama, in part because… It has a lot to do with the fact that Nicaragua was an independent country, while Panama, at that time, was still a province of Colombia. And the US is able to help Panamanian separatists gain their independence from Colombia. So US control of Panama was greater than in the case of Nicaragua. 
But Nicaragua, at that time, was ruled by a Liberal dictator by the name of Jose Santos Zelaya, who came to power in 1894, and nowadays in Nicaragua is seen as very much an anti-US, nationalist hero. 
But up to the moment when the US decided to build a canal through Panama rather than Nicaragua, Zelaya was arguably the most pro-US president in Nicaraguan history. He really wanted the US to construct the canal through Nicaragua, gave them unprecedented concessions. But then once the US turned, or decided to do the canal in Panama, he then tried to get other powers to create an alternative canal through Panama, courting mainly European powers. And Germany seemed very interested. 
But he also was courting the Japanese. Japan was becoming an imperial power at that time, and the US really wasn’t very fond of his efforts. In fact, they saw that as a strategic threat to their control of the Panama Canal, and really didn’t want a rival canal to be built just north — Nicaragua is not that far away from Panama. And that’s how the US then turned against Zelaya, essentially forced his ouster. That’s why Zelaya is now seen as such an anti-US nationalist.
The US tried to install a pro-US puppet government that only created greater unrest in the country that led to the outbreak of a civil war in 1912. And that triggered the first major US military intervention in Nicaragua in the 20th century after the Walker episode of the 1850s, and that’s really when the occupation begins. 
Although US military intervention already began in 1910, when the presence of US warships off the Caribbean coast played a very key role in the overthrowing of Zelaya and also in the downfall of a successor government led by a Liberal who had enjoyed great support in Nicaragua and was seen as a democratic alternative to this dictator. But the US just lumped all Liberals in the same boat and saw him, this Liberal, as a mini Zelaya, and was adamantly opposed to him, and installed, essentially, a Conservative government. And that government wasn’t able to control things, and things just got worse.
And that’s how you get that outbreak of the Civil War. That’s essentially the beginning of the US military occupation that lasts until 1933.
Michael Fox:  Wow. So there’s two fascinating things that you just mentioned: the Liberals. Because I remember, at first, the Liberals, that’s who invited William Walker to come to the country, that was his people. So now you see this shift over 60 years where, as you note, the Liberals are no longer who the US wants to work with. So it’s an interesting transition. 
Walk us through, Michel, the occupation. What does this look like? How many troops are on the ground? What’s the reality, and why is the United States there so long? 
Michel Gobat:  So you have the invasion force. The Civil War breaks out in May, June, something like that. And there are various things happening, including a hunger crisis. People are clamoring for food imports. 
The government is opposed to importing food because it would then increase the government debt, and the US was really gung ho about making sure that the government debt would decrease — 
A belief that the great problem in a place like Nicaragua was financial instability. 
What you have are these irresponsible elites fighting over the National Treasury. So what the US did, after 1910, was have Wall Street bankers take over the National Treasury of Nicaragua. And with the support of these US officials, the Conservative government is blocking the import of food, but there’s this famine going on. And that also leads to a lot of unrest. 
In any case, you have this US military invasion in September. I think, ultimately, the invasion force totals about 2,500 troops. I’m not quite sure. And they are able to defeat the rebel army that is, essentially, a Liberal-Conservative alliance. 
So that’s part of the reason why you have the Civil War. The Liberals are ostracized by the US, so they’re not not able to participate politically. But what triggers the Civil War is a conflict among Conservatives. And an important sector of the Conservatives take up arms against the Conservative government, and then the Liberals join them. 
That’s important to keep in mind, because a lot of people think it’s just the Liberals that opposed the the US, but no — It’s a Liberal-Conservative joint army that opposes the US. I would argue these two groups enjoy public support, more than in the case of the Conservative government. In fact, they also control more seats in the Congress. But the US is opposed to them and quickly is able to defeat this rebel army. And after the defeat, the vast majority of US troops are withdrawn.
So what you have then is what’s called a legation guard. It’s a small guard, I forget exactly how many men, maybe about 200, who are based in the capital of Managua. They basically defend the legation. That is what, back then, was the US Embassy. It’s more a symbolic presence. As long as the legation is there, Nicaraguans know that if they ever try to overthrow the government, the US will quickly intervene with a much larger force.
And that lasts, mainly, until another civil war breaks out in 1926. Again it’s a civil war triggered by a Liberal-Conservative alliance that’s opposed to a Conservative government. And the US intervenes again, probably with a similarly sized force, I forgot exactly what, but 2,500 maybe, or 3,000 troops. 
And unlike the first time, however, they intervene, but they know the solution is no longer to prop up the existing Conservative government, but to promote free elections. And so, for the first time, you have free elections in Nicaragua, in the sense that they’re competitive. And those elections are won by the Liberals. They’re in power until the end of the US occupation in 1933. 
It’s the Liberals and a small sector of the Conservatives that constitute the rebel army in the Civil War of 1926-27 that triggers the second major US invasion. And nearly all Liberal generals support the US invasion, because they now believe that the US is sincere in allowing them to come back to power through free elections. 
Except for one general. This is Sandino, and he refuses to support this new form of US protectorate, and he refuses to lay down his arms and goes to this northern, corner borderlands area with Honduras called the Segovias, and starts his insurgency. It starts very small, but then obviously it becomes a very potent insurgency that the US occupiers ultimately aren’t able to put down. 
Michael Fox:  Can you talk about his guerrilla war against the Marines once the Civil War ends? 
Michel Gobat:  I think, for a while, people were not quite clear what was the social basis of his army. Some people think that these are miners because this region, this isolated region, this frontier region of Nicaragua, also has US-owned mines, and some of his earliest attacks are against these US-owned mines. He attacks them and is able to gain recruits there, and also funds things like that. 
But in the end, the people who study Sandino’s rank and file most closely come to the conclusion it’s largely a peasant-based army. And it matters because if you think his guerrilla army mainly consists of miners then you would think that they would promote a socialist identity. If they’re mainly peasants, then the idea is maybe they’re defending different interests.
But they’re essentially a guerrilla army, and their home base is largely in the Segovias, but eventually they’re able to carry out attacks or offensives that go well beyond their home base. So they go at, one point, from their home base all the way to the Atlantic coast, where they attack some US-owned plantations. But they are also able to go southwest towards Lake Nicaragua. And at one point, it seems like they’re even threatening to attack the capital of Managua.
So they do spread, but their main theater of operations is in the Segovias. And they’re a classic guerrilla army. At the very beginning, he waged these more like open field battles. But the US used airplanes. It was very easy for them to decimate — Is that the word in English? — Sandino’s troops. 
And then, after that, he embraces classic guerilla strategy. So small troops, small groups of soldiers that attack with more like a hit and run tactic. And they often also don’t wear uniforms, so they blend more easily into the civilian population. 
But that said, he does try to create an alternative state in the Segovias. He names authorities. He even has letterhead and official stamps. So there is this idea that he’s trying to create a new Nicaragua or a new liberated Nicaragua. Liberated not just from the US occupation but also US hegemony. 
He becomes very critical of the Americanization of popular culture. He’s opposed to… I don’t think he’s opposed to baseball. But he’s opposed to, for example, the modern woman, the flappers. He sees that these are degenerated Nicaraguans, and not really true Nicaraguans. 
Which is very different than his brother, Socrates, who also supported Sandino, and the legitimate son of his father. So he’s a couple years younger. He actually goes to the US when the Civil War breaks out. Lives there for two years in Brooklyn, and became really enamored with the US lifestyle flappers and all that. But eventually he also hooks up with his brother, and he is killed with his brother in 1934 when they’re assassinated.
Michael Fox:  Wow. So I want to get to his assassination in a second, but there’s a couple things that I want to dive into in the meantime. One of them, when I was in Panama recently, I found a 1951 copy of a book titled The Story of the US Marines by Maj. George P Hunt. And I picked it up on purpose, because I wanted to see what he was saying about the Marines and occupations in Central America and the Caribbean at the time. 
It’s interesting, because he literally describes Sandino as “A wily Nicaraguan bandit, Sandino”. That’s his description. And while he’s describing the episode that you’re talking about, the planes, it was the first time that US planes are used to support ground troops, close air support and whatnot. But it’s fascinating that he’s referred to as a bandit even though he’s Nicaraguan, and meanwhile the United States is an occupying army. Could you explain that a little bit more, and also how he is seen in Nicaragua by Nicaraguans at the time?
Michel Gobat:  Well, the bandit thing is a typical US trope. They also saw Pancho Villa when with the Pershing Expedition in Chihuahua in 1916, ‘17. Villa was also seen as a bandit, even though, at one point, he was the leader of, arguably, the largest revolutionary army in modern Latin American history. 
So Sandino is also seen as a bandit, both by the US but also by the pro-US Nicaraguan government. And one of the key goals of his brother, Socrates Sandino, when he’s in the US… For a while, he doesn’t publicly identify with his brother. But very quickly, once Sandino starts attacking US troops, the US occupiers, and becomes a hero among anti-imperialists in the US and the anti-imperialist movement is based in New York. So Socrates is well-known among people who know him because of his brother, but he doesn’t publicly identify with the solidarity movement for fear of deportation.
But then, for whatever reason, he does decide to support the pro-Sandino solidarity movement, and makes these talks and big speeches. The very first speech he gives in Irving Hall, I think it’s called, in New York. An audience of about 1,000 or 2,000 people. So a lot of people are hearing him. 
And one of the main goals is to defend his brother’s reputation, saying, no, he’s not a bandit, he is a patriot, just like George Washington or Simón Bolívar, because a lot of people in the audience are Latinos, recent immigrants from Latin America. And so it was very important to him to underscore that his brother was not a bandit and more like a liberator. You can see also that that’s very important to the Sandinista propaganda at that time. How they explain themselves: we’re not bandits.
But reinforcing his bandit image is, like anybody participating in the war, there was a lot of violence going on, and not just against the US occupiers, but also against the local population, particularly those who were seen to be collaborating with the US occupiers. And that goes to your other question, what was Sandino’s image in Nicaragua? 
Later, when another revolution triumphed in Nicaragua in 1979, Sandino was seen as the quintessential Nicaraguan hero, and it would have been very hard to imagine that Nicaraguans would have opposed Sandino at that time, except for elites who are in the pocket of the US. These are the so-called… The term we call them in Spanish is the vende patrias. The people who sell out their country. They sell their country, vende patrias. 
But in fact, it was more complicated. There’s a US historian who’s done great work on this, Michael Schroeder, who shows that before the Sandino insurgency or rebellion began, the Segovias is a place plagued by a lot of conflict among, I think he calls them gangs. But these armed groups, for whatever reason, are fighting against each other. 
So there’s quite a lot of violence there. And so people who have that experience see Sandino, if they’re not on his side, they see him as part of this gang warfare. And outside of the Segovias, for a while, Sandino is, because of the way the newspapers report about him, he’s often seen as a bandit or as someone who is promoting a lot of political violence. 
But it’s interesting that some of his greatest supporters outside of the Segovias are not people that are usually identified with his cause. So, Sandino, for a while, enjoyed strong support from the Communist International. So he’s often associated with leftist groups. But leftist groups in Nicaragua outside the Segovias, like artisan groups or the labor movement, they had an ambivalent relationship with Sandino.
Towards the end, some of his greatest supporters actually were members of the most Conservative sector of the elite. These oligarchs from Granada who would then often go out at night, spray pro-Sandino slogans on the walls of their hometown, Granada, or they would go out on horseback and shout pro-Sandino slogans. 
And this is something that most scholars have overlooked, but it’s an odd… It seems like a paradoxical convergence between Sandino and these oligarchs, who are often very young, who then later embrace quasi-fascist ideas. But what brings them together is this hatred for the US occupiers, this belief that Nicaragua needs to be rejuvenated, and also to expel the American way of life out of the popular spirit of Nicaraguans. 
So there are things that bring them together, but in the end  there’s no real alliance between them. But there’s some of it, there’s some of his greatest supporters, and that also affects the way in which maybe more leftist Nicaraguans would view Sandino. Because they would see that quasi alliance between Sandino and these reactionaries — They call themselves reactionaries — To put it mildly, with suspicion. 
Michael Fox:  Wow. Fascinating. 
Michel Gobat:  So he is, at the time, a complex… Nicaraguans’ views of him are contradictory.
Michael Fox:  I want to dive in real real fast to talk about these complicated relations. You mentioned the American way of life. The title of your book is Confronting the American Dream: Nicaragua Under US Imperial Rule. And, in fact, you mentioned the paradoxes in your book, which I want to dive into a second. 
But I love the title because it raises so many questions. The American dream is supposed to be inside the United States; what is it doing in Nicaragua? What are we talking about? Can you talk about where does that come from, and why does that make sense within this context for Nicaragua?
Michel Gobat:  Well, the title of the book is a play on an important book that came out… Oh, God, when did that come out? Probably in the 1980s, I think, by Emily Rosenberg, called Spreading the American Dream. She focuses on this time period, the 1890s to about the 1920s, if I’m not mistaken, where she argues that there are various ways in which the US spreads its way of life. One way is through businesses. US government, too. But a key promoter of the American way of life at this time is Hollywood, with a dramatic expansion of Hollywood, the film industry, in the 1920s.
And so, Confronting the American Dream is because the book focuses on the wealthiest regional elite of Nicaragua, the ones based in Granada who, for a long time, admire the American way of life. Many of them actually go to the US to study. Mainly young men, but also women. Young men tend to go to the US to go to college or maybe get a medical degree, something like that. Women often are going more to high schools, finishing schools. But a lot of them go to the US. 
And so there’s this one family, it’s the Urtecho family, and one of the most prominent members of this family is José Coronel Urtecho, who then becomes a very important intellectual in 20th century Nicaragua. Conservative upbringing. He’s one of these reactionaries who supports Sandino. Then later he supports, basically, the person who ordered Sandino’s assassination: Anastasio Somoza, who becomes the dictator of Nicaragua.
And then Coronel Urtecho experiences also the triumph of the Sandinista revolution in 1979 and becomes one of its main supporters. So, he’s a great person to see all these changes over time. 
He wrote this really interesting essay explaining the Americanization of his family, how everybody, when he was growing up in the early 20th century, everybody in the family spoke English, admired the American way of life. And he himself spent time with his mother in San Francisco, I think in 1925 or ‘26 he was there. And then comes back to Nicaragua and becomes a prominent… Even though he’s young, but because of his elite status, he becomes a prominent journalist and literary figure.
And he then turns against the American dream. So he then believes that the problem of Nicaragua is that it’s too Americanized. That it’s not just undermining Nicaraguan sovereignty but is also creating all these conflicts among Nicaraguans, and that’s facilitating, that’s helping the US control the country. So he becomes one of Sandino’s main supporters at the very end. 
So I use him and his group to show how Nicaraguans were not always… This group was not always opposed to the American way of life. On the contrary, they embraced it, and are seen as the main promoters, or the main symbols, of the American way of life in Nicaragua. But then they turn against it. 
And so what I wanted to show is how a US occupation can promote this tension between anti-Americanism and Americanization. That the relationship between these two is complicated. So some of the main opponents of the US occupation were highly Americanized Liberals who never abandoned the American dream. They supported the American dream, but they believed that Nicaraguans were not able to realize the American dream precisely because of the US occupation.  
Very similar to the role highly Americanized young Cubans played in radicalizing the Cuban Revolution that triumphed in 1959. Nowadays, we see that, essentially, as a communist revolution. And it did become a communist revolution, and communism is often seen as the very opposite of the American dream. But at the beginning it was these highly Americanized Cubans who believed that the reason why Cubans couldn’t experience the American way of life was because of the strong influence the US exerted over the island. So you have something very similar in Nicaragua.
Michael Fox:  How ingrained in the US occupation of Nicaragua from 1912 to 1933 was the goal of Americanizing Nicaragua, turning it into a little United States? 
Michel Gobat:  You mean by the US government? 
Michael Fox:  Yes, exactly, exactly. 
Michel Gobat:  I think the US government was just mainly interested in stability in Nicaragua. Again, its main goal was to make sure that political instability would not open the door to another foreign power, be it Germany or Japan, to build a canal. And it was looking for the least expensive form of control, and that was dollar diplomacy. 
So it basically wanted to have a pro-US government in place. This would be the Conservatives. And since it believed that the main source of political instability in Nicaragua was infighting among elites, particularly with the National Treasury, it turned, essentially, Nicaragua into a financial protectorate. So Wall Street bankers control the National Treasury, as well as the railroads and things like that. 
But their goal wasn’t really trying to Americanize the country, unlike maybe with other more deeply rooted US occupations that not only had a greater presence of US troops, but also where the goal of the US was really very different. 
I’m thinking, for example, the US occupation of Germany or Japan after World War II, where the US probably did have a goal of Americanizing those societies to, in many ways, get rid of fascism. You didn’t have that in Nicaragua. 
That doesn’t mean that there weren’t agents of the US occupation that tried to promote Americanization. Some of the greatest promoters of Americanization were US missionaries. During the occupation, you have Protestant missions that set foot in various parts of Nicaragua, and so they are trying to promote Americanization. In many ways, and sometimes in unintended ways, they’re going against the Nicaraguan ideals of patriarchy and they’re trying to educate young women, particularly in the countryside.
And so a lot of Nicaraguan men see this as a threat, that these Protestant missionaries are trying to liberate local women and turn them into so-called modern women, even though it’s more complicated. But that’s what they were thinking was happening. And so you have quite a bit of violence meted out against these Protestant missionaries, a number of them who were actually women. 
So I would argue it’s those agents, US citizens who go to Nicaragua, who are the ones more gung ho about promoting Americanization than the US government. 
Michael Fox:  How much of an influence did the occupation have on local politics itself, in particular in those final years? And do we have a sense of how much support the United States and the Marines had?
Michel Gobat:  Until the second Civil War breaks out in 1926-27, the main political impact of the US occupation was that until about 1923, ‘24 it basically blocked Liberals from participating in national politics of the Liberal Party. So the Liberal Party, even though one could argue it was the main political party in Nicaragua, it was ostracized, it was proscribed by the US, so that allowed the Conservatives to stay in power at the local level. 
However, elections were a bit more competitive, in part because sometimes Liberals participated or the Conservative Party itself was not a homogeneous group. You had different factions and so it was a bit more competitive. 
Things really changed and became, I would argue, more democratic with the second major US invasion in 1927, when the US decided that the main source of instability in Nicaragua was no longer financial conflicts of the National Treasury, but rather of the issue of free and fair elections. 
And so what the US then did was have the US military, US troops, together with troops from the newly formed Nicaraguan army, the so-called National Guard, or in Spanish Guardia Nacional, that was recreated in 1927 and was led by US officers. So the rank and file are Nicaraguans, but the officers are US Marines. This new “Nicaraguan” army and US troops then controlled or supervised elections that occurred between 1928 and 1932. And so you have the national election, the presidential elections of ‘28 and ‘32, and then, also in 1930, you also have regional elections and congressional elections. And so they’re all controlled by what’s called the US electoral mission.
And the idea was to make them free and fair. For example, US troops would man the voting booths. they’re called mesas, the electoral tables. They would prohibit local strongmen, the so-called caudillos, from manipulating the local vote.
I studied that pretty carefully, and I would argue they weren’t completely free and fair because the US would also proscribe third parties. This is the US model of democracy. That democracy you have to have, it can only be two parties. In this case, the Liberals and Conservatives. And there were other parties that the US basically prevented from participating in the elections, either more radical or more nationalistic. But for Nicaraguan circumstances, these were pretty free and fair elections. And this is even acknowledged by some prominent leftists who could hardly be seen as lackeys of US imperialism.
But the unintended consequence was that it gave the local military a lot of political clout. Essentially what the US was trying to do by controlling these elections was not only to guarantee free and fair elections, but also to undermine the power of these local strongmen, the so-called “caudillos“. They believed that the big problem in Nicaragua was caudillismo. And that these were irresponsible, anti-modern, backward-looking, regional strongmen who treated the poor, essentially that they would herd them as sheep into the voting booth and things like that.
And you have some really powerful quotes from US officers at the time who were part of the electoral mission who really believe that they’re promoting democracy at the local level. But in doing so what they did was essentially have the Nicaraguan military, which was led by US officers at that time — The Guardia Nacional — Take over the role of the caudillos. So, indirectly laying the foundations for the military dictatorship that emerged in Nicaragua three years after the withdrawal of the last US troops in 1933. That’s the Somoza dictatorship that lasts all the way until 1979.
A lot of scholars, or people in Nicaragua, believe that this was an intended consequence of the US occupation, that the US wanted Somoza to create this military dictatorship. And there were certainly US officials that supported Somoza, including the US ambassador. But I would argue that this was more an unintended consequence of the way in which the US tried to use the military to promote democracy. 
And so it points more generally to the perils of US democracy promotion at the point of bayonets, which became a very important mode of US democracy promotion in the 20th century, particularly after the end of the Cold War.
I think the Nicaraguan experience just shows that we have to take into account the issue of unintended consequences to get a better understanding of the perils of US democracy promotion via the military. 
Michael Fox:  I love this, Michel, because that’s seen as the ideal for every president in the United States: We’re going to spread democracy to the world. Our democracy. Not any other style, but our democracy of the world. And this is such a great example of how it can go terribly wrong. 
Michel, talk about Sandino’s capture and his assassination, and  what happens that then leads to the Somoza dictatorship in the following years. 
Michel Gobat:  Well, he’s not actually captured. So, in 1933, the US troops withdraw, and the question is what’s going to happen to Sandino’s troops up in the Segovias, because obviously they are a powerful force. The US occupiers were not able to defeat this insurgency. 
And so Sandino travels a couple of times to Managua from the Segovias to create a new political party, and he’s not successful. But it’s on one of his last trips to Managua, he’s there, he’s actually meeting with the president of the time, Sacasa, who’s a Liberal. 
And it is after that meeting where he and a couple of his closest advisors, including his brother, they’re leaving the presidential palace. They’re driving away from it, and then a Guardia patrol — And by now the Guardia Nacional, the Nicaraguan military force that was established during the US occupation, initially led by US officers, it’s not been totally Nicaraguanized, was the term they would use then. That is, it’s now led by Nicaraguan officers who don’t have any formal military training. And so the leader is Somoza. He was a former Liberal politician, who then becomes the head of this Nicaraguan army.
And he orders Guardia troops to capture, to arrest Sandino. And what they do is they kill them all. And then what they do is the Guardia then goes up to the north and essentially commits this massacre against Sandino’s followers. He has this camp in [inaudible], up in the north. And that is the beginning of the dictatorship. 
For a while there’s outrage in Nicaragua. Somoza is able to survive this political outrage. And in 1936, he feels comfortable enough to overthrow Sacasa, the president. And then there are elections that are anything but free and fair, and he becomes the president. 
But essentially he’s the dictator, and is assassinated by a young leftist in 1956. And that’s when his eldest son takes over…. What was his name again? 
Michael Fox:  Luis Somoza Debayle
Michael Gobat:  Luis, yeah, thank you. Luis, who actually studied agricultural engineering or something like that at LSU in the US. And under Luis… So it’s 1956, he dies from a heart attack in ‘67. There’s a sense that maybe there’s some political opening, maybe a way out of the dictatorship. This is also the era of the Cuban Revolution. 
But then his younger brother, after he dies, his younger brother, Tacho…  Anastasio Somoza Debayle, who is a graduate of West Point and is the head of the Guardia Nacional, takes over, and clearly is opposed to any attempts to promote democratization, and he’s the one who’s overthrown by the Sandinista revolution in 1979.
Michael Fox:  What would be a good summary of those 43 years of dictatorship under the Somozas, and particularly Anastasio Somoza? Is this what we just envision, of a brutal, bloodthirsty, no-democratic-rights style dictatorship through over four decades? 
Michel Gobat:  Yeah, I think that, for a long time, that was the dominant view, that this was essentially a brutal military dictatorship from day one in 1936 to the last day on July 17, 1979, that it’s essentially the same thing. I think that would be a mistake. In many ways, our views of the dictatorship are colored by the last years, particularly the third Somoza, Tacho Somoza, who’s the head of the National Guard, who essentially uses the US’s paranoia of communism to squash any efforts to promote democracy in Nicaragua, and becomes very violent.
It’s a bit more complicated because also the Guardia becomes much more of a praetorian force, like a family army. And so for a long time, I think scholars, or the general view of the Somoza dictatorship was that they turned Nicaragua into their family estate, their family hacienda. 
What gets lost is that the original Somoza was a bit of a populist and that the National Guard, the army, for a while — And this is where maybe you can see this is a legacy of the US occupation. The National Guard and some of its officers had a very strong anti-elite streak. Not all of them, but some of them, especially those who were trained by the US and so they would help peasants wage their battles over land against local landlords, especially if the landlords were Conservatives. Then Somoza, he’s a Liberal, so had no problem supporting this.
So there’s a scholar by the name of Jeffrey Gould who showed in his first book how there’s a populist basis to the dictatorship that often gets overlooked, and helps us better understand why it lasted for so long. 
But that all started collapsing in the 1960s, and it’s still unclear why. But I would argue that it had a lot to do with the way in which the Guardia officers, who until that moment were military officers but also occupied important, formally or informally, local political positions. They then become quasi-military entrepreneurs. They take advantage of this second agro export boom that dramatically transforms Nicaragua in the ‘60s and ‘70s. The main product here is not coffee, but it’s cotton. You get the expansion of the cotton industry.
And this is where they become the landlords and then, essentially, no longer are supporting the peasants. So this is where the Somoza dictatorship starts dramatically losing its popular support, particularly in the countryside. Because of the expansion of cotton, you have a lot of land conflicts, you have peasants losing their land, they’re migrating to the cities. This helps the revolutionary movement that was established in the early ‘60s, the National Sandinista Liberation Front, recruit followers. And the Guardia becomes much more of a praetorian force, beholden to Somoza, becomes much more brutal.
And I think it has a lot to do with the fact that now these military officers have also become important economic actors. And so they have a lot to lose if they start supporting the opposition to the Somoza dictatorship.
Michael Fox:  Michel, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you think is important to talk about in terms of legacy, or that we haven’t touched on about the longest US occupation in Latin America from 1912 to 1933, and why it’s important to remember today? 
Michel Gobat:  That’s a big question [both laugh]. I don’t like to draw lessons from history. History doesn’t repeat itself, but I do think this military occupation, particularly the end and the way… So what you have is the lengthiest US military occupation shortly followed by the lengthiest military dictatorship in modern Latin American history. And a lot of people see this as a natural outgrowth, as I mentioned earlier, so the US occupation produces this dictatorship.
Again, I think it’s really important to see this more as an unintended consequence. And I think if you don’t take, for example, the US efforts to promote democracy via the military seriously, you don’t really see the perils of it. And I think the Nicaraguan case shows neatly the dangers of US democracy promotion. 
Michael Fox:  Absolutely. It’s so powerful and interesting to be able to weave through all these things and to hearken back to other stuff, mentioning here this is where we’re headed with 1980s Contra War stuff, and then look back at William Walker and understand how one thing leads to another. And then like you said, the democracy promotion stuff is so key. 
But also understanding when a country is occupied for 21 years, that leaves a mark. That has a profound impact. It’s not just like, oh, they’re there and, oh yeah, we’ll leave now and it’s all fine. That means something, and that legacy remains.
Michel Gobat:  You’re right. We still need to know a lot more about the impact on local society. 
So there’s a graduate student, a Nicaraguan named Eimeel Castillo at the University of Michigan who’s now working more on the impact the US occupation had on local society, particularly in terms of gender relations. Because a lot of Nicaraguan women were prostitutes or married US military personnel, how did that affect their relations with their families? It’s that Americanization at the local level that, as you said, must have left a deep imprint on local society. That’s really hard to get at.
Michael Fox:  And baseball. Is this when baseball becomes an important sport in Nicaragua, around that same time? 
Michel Gobat:  A lot of people think that baseball… And baseball is the most popular sport in Nicaragua, which stands out in Central America. It’s usually soccer. A lot of people think it’s because of the US occupation. But actually baseball becomes popular, or is already popular, before the US occupation begins in 1912. It’s imported mainly by students, elites, these elites from Granada who go to the US and study, and they bring back baseball, and baseball then becomes, quickly, very popular.
And I would argue that, certainly by the early years of the US occupation, baseball probably replaces cock fighting as the most popular sport in Nicaragua. It’s often seen as a sport that promotes civilization. It’s a team sport and it’s regulated, not like cock fighting that’s seen as bloody. 
But actually at the very beginning, baseball games were pretty bloody because you didn’t have stadiums, so there was no separation between the spectators and the players. And you had teams from competing towns play against each other, and sometimes they got really violent. Blood was spilled then, just like in a cock pit, but the blood spilt was not animal blood, it was human blood. 
I think also… It might be a bizarre way, but I think that underscores the popularity of baseball, that it could play such a prominent role in these local conflicts between towns.
Michael Fox:  And cock fighting was the main sport before baseball, then?
Michel Gobat:  Yeah, you see that in the Walker period, just how critical cock fighting is. 
Michael Fox:  Oh, my gosh. Michel, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Michel Gobat:  Thank you. I’m looking forward to your next podcast on cock fighting [both laugh].
Michael Fox:  Absolutely.
[INTERVIEW ENDS]
Michael Fox:  That is all for Episode 9 of Under the Shadow. 
Next time, we fast forward into 1980s Nicaragua to an insurgency that overthrew a dictator, to US attempts to stymie its success by any means necessary, and the scandal that ensued. 
Speaker:  We hold these hearings, because in the course of the conduct of this nation, something went wrong. Seriously wrong.
Michael Fox:  That’s up next on Under the Shadow.
[Under the Shadow theme music]
If you’re enjoying this podcast series, you can really help us out by spreading the word. Share it with a friend. Follow, subscribe, like it, rate it, or leave a review on Spotify, Spreaker, Google, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I’m placing some of those links in the show notes. 
Finally, as always, if you like what you hear, please check out my Patreon page: patreon.com/mfox. There you can also support my work, become a monthly sustainer, or sign up to stay abreast of all the latest on this podcast and my other reporting across Latin America. 
Under the Shadow is a co-production in partnership with The Real News and NACLA. 
The theme music is by my band, Monte Perdido. We’ve just finished a new album and it should be available for streaming in the coming weeks.
This is Michael Fox. Many thanks.
See you next time… 
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<item>
<title>Yemen defies ‘America’s failure’ to stop blockade of Red Sea</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/yemen-defies-americas-failure-to-stop-blockade-of-red-sea</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Belal Awad and Leo Erhadt]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Tue, 23 Apr 2024 20:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Workers of the World]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Yemen]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312388</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="576" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?fit=1024%2C576&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Ansarallah Spokesman Yahya Saree delivers an address reporting on a recent Yemeni military operation in the Red Sea. Screenshot courtesy of Al Masirah TV" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?w=1280&ssl=1 1280w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?resize=300%2C169&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?resize=1024%2C576&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?resize=768%2C432&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?resize=1200%2C675&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?resize=400%2C225&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?fit=1024%2C576&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>'We, the people of Yemen, say to America, the Big Satan, that any actions and aggression will only increase our commitment and joy in achieving our goal of ending the aggression and siege on the people of Palestine.']]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="576" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?fit=1024%2C576&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Ansarallah Spokesman Yahya Saree delivers an address reporting on a recent Yemeni military operation in the Red Sea. Screenshot courtesy of Al Masirah TV" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?w=1280&ssl=1 1280w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?resize=300%2C169&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?resize=1024%2C576&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?resize=768%2C432&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?resize=1200%2C675&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?resize=400%2C225&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/TRNN-TEMPLATE-SET-84.png?fit=1024%2C576&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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Since Oct. 2023, the government of Yemen, led by the organization Ansarallah, or the “Houthis”, has maintained a humanitarian blockade of the Red Sea in solidarity with the people of Gaza. Despite attempts by the US and UK to force Yemen to abandon its mission, the blockade has only intensified, escalating to include all US and Israeli shipping, and even the targeting of US warships. The Real News reports from Yemen, where defiance against outside pressure and solidarity with the Palestinian cause remains unshaken.
<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
Producer: Belal Awad, Leo Erhardt Videographer: Dhaifallah Homran Video Editor: Leo Erhardt
</blockquote>
<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
TRNN – Yemen_transcript
Narrator:
In response to Israel’s genocidal war on Gaza, an aggression which has to date claimed the lives of at least 30,000 people, the Yemeni state, led by the Houthis, has been carrying out a naval blockade, targeting Israeli ships and ships destined for Israeli ports which pass through the Red Sea. The Houthis vow to continue the blockade as long as Israel continues its genocide.
Protester:
You are the root of evil and tyranny! You are the terrorists.
Narrator:
Rashid al haddad, aka “Tim-houthie Chalamet”, a young Yemeni instagram user, has become an overnight sensation, with his selfie videos – posting in front of seized ships and reaching millions.
Rashid al haddad – Influencer:
Houthi attacks in the Red Sea, are for Palestine. The blockade in the Red Sea is for the sake of Palestine. If the war on Gaza is stopped and the siege lifted, they will end the war in the Red Sea – that’s all.
Protester:
Yemen fears no one but Allah. It will be steadfast, it will resist and it will attack all who attack it.
Narrator:
Yemen, a country in the West, known mainly for being the victim of a devastating, near decade long civil war and one of the world’s poorest nations.Strategically located between the gulf of Aden and the Red Sea, Yemen has for centuries been a crossroads – between Africa and Asia and between East and West. It is this strategic location, which has allowed it to take its current stand, taking on the combined might of the entire West to put a stop to a Western genocide.
Yahya Sarea – Houthi military spokesman:
In response to the demands of our great Yemeni people and the calls of the free people of our Arab and Islamic nation to fully stand with the choices of the Palestinian people and their proud resistance. The naval forces of the Yemeni armed forces carried out this morning a targeting operation against two Israeli ships in Bab al-Mandab.
Narrator:
Unlike Israel’s alleged war crimes in Gaza, the threatening of commercial interests, provoked an immediate and spirited response, from the West:
Annalena Baerbock – Germany’s Minister of Foreign Affairs:
This is a question for the international community, there is a right to protect these ships’ freedom of navigation.
Rishi Sunak – Prime Minister of United Kingdom:
Since the 19th of November Iran-backed Houthis have launched over 25 illegal and unacceptable attacks on commercial shipping in the Red Sea.
Narrator:
The flurry of condemnations was swiftly followed by action: the US launched a naval operation dubbed “operation prosperity guardian” and soon after further escalation:
Amy Goodman – Host of ‘Democracy Now!’:
The united states and Britain launched dozens of military strikes on Yemen on Thursday night raising fears of an escalation of conflict in the region
David Cameron – UK Foreign Secretary:
Military action should always be the last resort but since the 19th of November, we’ve had 26 attacks on ships. Freedom of navigation really matters, its not just the goods that are coming to this country the dangers of our economy being dislocated its also grain ships on their way to Ethiopia and Sudan to feed some of the poorest and hungriest people in the world: this really matters.
Narrator:
While Cameron’s heart bleeds for the poor and hungry, he shows rather less concern for the Israeli-made and UK supported humanitarian catastrophe taking place in Gaza. The Houthis have target Israel with the clear stated goal of ending the genocide. The UK and the US response however has been violent pounding the country with strikes, and killing many, including civilians, in the process.
And the results? Well, Joe Biden himself has explicitly acknowledged that the strikes are not really having the desired effect:
Journalist:
Are the airstrikes in Yemen working?
Joe Biden:
Well, when you say working are they stopping the Houthis? No. Are they gonna continue? Yes.
Protester:
We the people of Yemen, say to the whole world and to the United States: the big Satan, that any actions and aggression will only increase our commitment and joy in achieving our goal of ending the aggression and siege on the people of Palestine.
Narrator:
For the people of Yemen, air-strikes have been a daily reality for nearly a decade, and yet public sentiment remains clearly supportive of the Houthis. A sentiment largely reflected in the country’s capital, Sanaa, where protesters regularly pour into the streets in their tens of thousands – in support for Palestine and in defiance of the US and Israel, most recently mobilizing in reaction to the Houthis being designated a terrorist entity.
Khaled Al-Madani – Houthi Official:
It is an honour for us. A great honour! That the mother of terror, the caretaker of terror, the builder of terror in the world who killed entire peoples, who dropped the nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and killed hundreds of thousands has designated us a terrorist organization. For the most honorable, ethical and humanitarian stance we stand with our brothers in Gaza.
They want us to back down so they applied this pressure, just like the air strikes, but the people of Yemen are firm in their faith: it is not possible to change their position. Neither military pressure, nor labeling us a terror organization it’s an ethical position, it’s impossible to change it.
Hamid Rizk – Political analyst:
The decision to designate the Houthis a terrorist organization reflects American failure. America failed in its threats, it failed in its political pressure, it failed in securing the Red Sea and it failed in terrorizing the Yemeni people, so it resorted to this political and economic step.
Narrator:
The Houthis, supported by the majority of Yemenis and the Arab world, have not backed down: in fact they have redoubled their attacks, targeting vessels from the US, Germany, the UK and even the Israeli port of Eilat, with big impact. Corporate newsletters and government economic announcements worldwide are acknowledging the devastating impacts on global supply chains – from the oil and gas industry, to pharmaceuticals to global shipping.
Abdul-Malik al-Houthi – leader of Houthis:
We will confront American aggression, no aggression will go without a response.
Yahya Sarea – Houthi military spokesman:
In response to the US-UK aggression on our country, The naval forces of Yemeni Armed Forces carried out a military operation targeting a US warship in the Gulf of Aden with several appropriate naval missiles. The hit was direct and accurate.
Narrator:
The apparent calm and good humor with which ordinary Yemenis have taken news of becoming the West’s latest target, is remarkable. Indeed, at times, images out of the country come across as playful – even mocking – with videos on social media showing huge wedding parties, on seized vessels, and tourist groups taking photos.
Rashid al haddad – Influencer:
I saw that my videos reached millions but I was happy only because the message was received. That my message was received and people were impacted and that many foreigners stood with me. Now they support me and say: continue, post about Palestine, we are with you and believe in you. The Palestinian cause is a cause of the oppressed. It is the responsibility of every human to see this. There are people dying of hunger, of thirst, being killed: 1 or 2 year old children. Children being killed in their mother’s belly from air strikes. I mean, we’re against this. They can’t distance us from the Palestinian cause or from the Red Sea, no matter what. We are standing with the cause and we will blockade them in the Red Sea until Palestine is free. The Yemeni people stand with Palestine because Palestine is our second country. Any Yemeni citizen, even if he isn’t a Houthi fighter, it’s normal.
Narrator:
For Israel, the US and their allies, the Houthi blockade has no doubt been a major headache, with very real economic impacts. A war that even before the blockade was costing billions of dollars, has since seen the economic costs explode – with the Israeli port of Eilat reportedly sitting largely empty – as ships circumnavigate Africa to avoid the Yemenis. With no sign of the Houthies backing down, and no sign either of Israel ending its genocidal war, it looks like that headache could be set to develop into a migraine.
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<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312388</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>Columbia faculty walk out over student suspensions, arrests for Gaza protests</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/columbia-faculty-walk-out-over-student-suspensions-arrests-for-gaza-protests</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jessica Corbett]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Tue, 23 Apr 2024 17:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312381</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Protestors occupy an encampment in support of Palestine on the grounds of Columbia University on April 22, 2024 in New York City. Photo by David Dee Delgado/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>While expressing gratitude for solidarity actions, Congresswoman Ilhan Omar—whose daughter was suspended—said that "this about the genocide in Gaza and the attention has to remain on that."]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Protestors occupy an encampment in support of Palestine on the grounds of Columbia University on April 22, 2024 in New York City. Photo by David Dee Delgado/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2148018313-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
<div class="wp-block-media-text is-stacked-on-mobile" style="grid-template-columns:30% auto"><figure class="wp-block-media-text__media"><img decoding="async" width="600" height="150" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?resize=600%2C150&ssl=1" alt="Common Dreams Logo" class="wp-image-268291 size-full" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=600&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?resize=300%2C75&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=370&ssl=1 370w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=400&ssl=1 400w" sizes="(max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure><div class="wp-block-media-text__content">
This story originally appeared in <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/columbia-university-protests" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Common Dreams</a> on Apr. 22, 2024. It is shared here with permission under a Creative Commons (CC BY-NC-ND 3.0) license.
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Over 34,000 Palestinians in <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/tag/gaza" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Gaza</a> have been killed by U.S.-backed Israeli troops, and Columbia University students have been suspended and arrested by New York Police Department officers in recent days for protesting the slaughter—which led to a walkout by the Ivy League institution’s faculty on Monday.
The Guardian <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/apr/22/columbia-university-protests-shutdown" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">reported</a> that “hundreds of members of the teaching cohort at Columbia walked out in solidarity with the students who were arrested” while “students put protest tents back up in the middle of campus on Monday after they were torn down last week when more than 100 arrests were <a href="https://www.insidehighered.com/news/students/free-speech/2024/04/18/columbia-encampment-cleared-students-arrested-suspended" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">made</a>.”
Yonah Lieberman, co-founder of IfNotNow, a Jewish-led U.S. group that organizes against Israel’s <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/israeli-settler-attacks-west-bank" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">apartheid</a>, <a href="https://x.com/YonahLieberman/status/1782475152413937890" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">declared</a>: “Solidarity with these faculty members. Shame on establishment politicians and agitators who are smearing the anti-war protest at Columbia as anything other than what it is: a courageous stand for freedom and peace.”
<figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-twitter wp-block-embed-twitter"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-width="550" data-dnt="true">Great to see faculty support students from smearing & intimidation tactics meant to stifle an overwhelmingly peaceful protest against war. This is a multi faith & multi racial movement across America. All heavy-handed attempts to quash it are inspiring more young people. <a href="https://t.co/AmLXYs8zJr">https://t.co/AmLXYs8zJr</a>— Wajahat Ali (@WajahatAli) <a href="https://twitter.com/WajahatAli/status/1782488952345141697?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 22, 2024</a></blockquote><script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Naureen Akhter, a founding member of the New York-based group Muslims for Progress, <a href="https://x.com/NaureenAkhter/status/1782490124019761215" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">said</a>: “Thank you to the professors who stood in solidarity with student protestors, who didn’t give into instigators who are fanning flames of hate and division. Remember the calls are for transparency, divestment, and amnesty for students!”
Congresswoman <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/tag/ilhan-omar" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Ilhan Omar</a> (D-Minn.)—a critic of Israel’s war on Gaza whose own daughter, Isra Hirsi, was <a href="https://www.teenvogue.com/story/isra-hirsi-ilhan-omar-columbia-arrests-barnard-suspension-palestine" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">suspended</a> from Columbia’s Barnard College last week for “standing in solidarity with Palestinians facing a genocide,” as the 21-year-old junior put it—also <a href="https://x.com/IlhanMN/status/1782479944699814394" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">noted</a> the faculty walkout and “nationwide Gaza solidarity movement.”
“This is more than the students hoped for and I am glad to see this type of solidarity,” said Omar. “But to be clear, this about the genocide in Gaza and the attention has to remain on that.”
<figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-twitter wp-block-embed-twitter"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-width="550" data-dnt="true">Summary of events from the last day not related to Columbia: – Israel has not provided evidence that UNRWA staff are part of Hamas – A mass grave, including women/children was discovered – Doctors did an emergency c-section, saving a baby after an airstrikes killed her mother <a href="https://t.co/vcP7eOnQjs">pic.twitter.com/vcP7eOnQjs</a>— Yonah Lieberman 🔥 (@YonahLieberman) <a href="https://twitter.com/YonahLieberman/status/1782443891733516295?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 22, 2024</a></blockquote><script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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The walkout in New York City followed 54 Columbia Law School professors <a href="https://theintercept.com/2024/04/22/gaza-protests-arrests-columbia-law-school/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">sending</a> a letter to administrators that states, “While we as a faculty disagree about the relevant political issues and express no opinion on the merits of the protest, we are writing to urge respect for basic rule-of-law values that ought to govern our university.”
“Procedural irregularity, a lack of transparency about the university’s decision-making, and the extraordinary involvement of the NYPD all threaten the university’s legitimacy within its own community and beyond its gates,” they wrote. “We urge the university to conform student discipline to clear and well-established procedures that respect the rule of law.”
In a statement early Monday, several hours before the walkout, Columbia University president Minouche Shafik—who last week <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/college-students-columbia-solidarity" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">enabled</a> NYPD arrests of students at the encampment—<a href="https://president.columbia.edu/news/statement-columbia-university-president-minouche-shafik-4-22" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">announced</a> in her <a href="https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/22/we-need-a-reset-shafik-breaks-silence-announces-same-day-shift-to-virtual-classes/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">first</a> statement since the sweep that all classes would be virtual “to deescalate the rancor and give us all a chance to consider next steps.”
“Faculty and staff who can work remotely should do so; essential personnel should report to work according to university policy. Our preference is that students who do not live on campus will not come to campus,” Shafik said. “During the coming days, a working group of deans, university administrators, and faculty members will try to bring this crisis to a resolution.”
<figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-twitter wp-block-embed-twitter"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-width="550" data-dnt="true">"There has been no due process on the Columbia campus," says professor Mahmood Mamdani (<a href="https://twitter.com/mm1124?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@mm1124</a>) about to suspensions and evictions of undergraduate pro-Palestine student-protesters by the Columbia and Barnard administrations. <a href="https://t.co/Vq2QWe9Sgv">pic.twitter.com/Vq2QWe9Sgv</a>— Democracy Now! (@democracynow) <a href="https://twitter.com/democracynow/status/1782400174213439586?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 22, 2024</a></blockquote><script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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The national group Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) on Monday accused Columbia of creating “a climate of repression and harm for students peacefully protesting for an end to the Israeli genocide against Palestinians in Gaza” over the past six months.
“Columbia University has actively created a hostile environment for students who are Palestinian or who support Palestinian freedom. Additionally, the administration’s actions have made the campus much less safe for Jewish students,” JVP said.
According to JVP:
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Instead of listening to the calls of Columbia and Barnard students to divest from the genocide perpetrated by the Israeli government, the university has called in the NYPD to arrest students, suspended them, and even expelled them. At present 85 students, 15 of whom are Jewish, are suspended.
Yesterday’s statement by the White House, like the administrators of Columbia University, dangerously and inaccurately presumes that all Jewish students support the Israeli government’s genocide of Palestinians. This assumption is actively harming Palestinian and Jewish students.
The administration has not only harassed Jewish students and failed to ensure their safety and well-being, it has also obstructed their religious observances during Shabbat and prevented them from accessing their Jewish community on the eve of Passover.
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While President Joe Biden’s Sunday <a href="https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/04/21/statement-from-president-joe-biden-on-passover/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">statement</a> was officially about Passover—a Jewish holiday that begins at sundown on Monday—and not the protests at Columbia and other campuses across the country, it was widely <a href="https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/21/chaos-columbia-jewish-moskowitz-santos-white-house-00153545" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">received</a> as a response to the latter.
Biden said in part that “we must speak out against the alarming surge of antisemitism—in our schools, communities, and online. Silence is complicity. Even in recent days, we’ve seen harassment and calls for violence against Jews. This blatant antisemitism is reprehensible and dangerous—and it has absolutely no place on college campuses, or anywhere in our country.”
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-width="550" data-dnt="true">I have not been on the Columbia campus. Neither has President Biden or a lot of other folks issuing statements. This award-winning journalist did go there. Here's what she saw <a href="https://t.co/zPwCoPM6zb">https://t.co/zPwCoPM6zb</a>— Will Bunch (@Will_Bunch) <a href="https://twitter.com/Will_Bunch/status/1782161065628901510?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 21, 2024</a></blockquote><script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Jonathan Ben-Menachem, a Ph.D. student at the university, <a href="https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/22/business/columbia-tensions-passover-virtual-classes/index.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">told</a> CNN that “Columbia students organizing in solidarity with Palestine—including Jewish students—have faced harassment, doxxing, and now arrest by the NYPD. These are the main threats to the safety of Jewish Columbia students.”
“On the other hand, student protesters have led interfaith joint prayers for several days now, and Passover Seder will be held at the Gaza solidarity encampment tomorrow,” he added. “Saying that student protesters are a threat to Jewish students is a dangerous smear.”
Columbia Students for Justice in <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/tag/palestine" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Palestine</a> said in a lengthy statement that “we are student activists at Columbia calling for divestment from genocide. We are frustrated by media distractions focusing on inflammatory individuals who do not represent us. At universities across the nation, our movement is united in valuing every human life.”
“As a diverse group united by love and justice, we demand our voices be heard against the mass slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza,” the statement continues. “We’ve been horrified each day, watching children crying over the bodies of their slain parents, families without food to eat, and doctors operating without anesthesia. Our university is complicit in this violence and this is why we protest.”
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-width="550" data-dnt="true">PRESS RELEASE: We are frustrated by media distractions focusing on inflammatory individuals who do not represent us. We firmly reject any form of hate or bigotry and stand against non students attempting to disrupt our solidarity. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/cu4palestine?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#cu4palestine</a> <a href="https://t.co/pOhtauKhle">pic.twitter.com/pOhtauKhle</a>— Columbia Students for Justice in Palestine (@ColumbiaSJP) <a href="https://twitter.com/ColumbiaSJP/status/1782241294858719676?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 22, 2024</a></blockquote><script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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The Columbia Spectator <a href="https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/22/columbia-college-overwhelmingly-passes-divestment-referendum/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">reported</a> Monday that Columbia College passed a divestment referendum that “asked whether the university should divest financially from Israel, cancel the Tel Aviv Global Center, and end Columbia’s dual degree program with Tel Aviv University,” with respective votes of 76.55%, 68.36%, and 65.62%. However, a statement from a university spokesperson signaled the referendum would not lead to any shift in campus policies.
Beyond Columbia, there are ongoing demonstrations at institutions including the <a href="https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/04/22/metro/students-emerson-mit-set-up-pro-palestinian-encampments/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Massachusetts Institute of Technology</a>, <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/04/22/us/campus-protests-columbia-yale?smid=url-share#57ee944a-0425-5b81-be62-bd7f576d3b65" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">New York University</a>, <a href="https://x.com/AbbyMartin/status/1782481737228091418" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">the University of Michigan</a>, and <a href="https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2024/04/22/live-police-begin-arresting-pro-divestment-protesters-on-beinecke-plaza/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Yale University</a>, another Ivy League school, where at least 47 peaceful student protesters were arrested on Monday.
Those arrested were “charged with class A misdemeanors, which is the <a href="http://www.cga.ct.gov/2021/rpt/pdf/2021-R-0080.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">highest class</a> of misdemeanors in Connecticut—the same degree applies to third-degree assault,” <a href="https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2024/04/22/live-police-begin-arresting-pro-divestment-protesters-on-beinecke-plaza/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">according to</a> the Yale Daily News. Citing a university spokesperson, the student newspaper added that they “will be referred for Yale disciplinary action—which could include reprimand, probation, or suspension.”
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-width="550" data-dnt="true">BREAKING: Police have flooded the encampment and given the warning, banging tents as they entered. Students have locked arms around the flagpole, signaling their willingness to be arrested. The crowd, several of whom are in tears, have begun singing “We shall not be moved.” <a href="https://t.co/gyHXCXnbDZ">pic.twitter.com/gyHXCXnbDZ</a>— Thomas Birmingham (@thomasbirm) <a href="https://twitter.com/thomasbirm/status/1782360010388803606?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 22, 2024</a></blockquote><script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Pushing back against some administrators’ statements, journalist Thomas Birmingham, who was with the Yale protesters overnight, <a href="https://x.com/thomasbirm/status/1782521647968207182" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">said</a> on social media: “Here’s some things I saw… 1. Repeated and loud calls to remain peaceful. 2. Students locking arms, teaching Arabic and Hebrew, and passing around pizza and water. 3. Lots of singing.”
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<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312381</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>Give the people musicals: Gene Bruskin, the people’s artist</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/give-the-people-musicals-gene-bruskin-the-peoples-artist</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Maximillian Alvarez]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Mon, 22 Apr 2024 18:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[The Cultural Front]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Working People]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[labor]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312316</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="710" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C710&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Three ballet dancers leaping on stage, silhouette" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C208&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C710&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C533&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1066&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1421&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C833&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1088&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1388&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C278&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C710&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Art has always played a role in revolution. For Gene Bruskin, cultivating culture in social movements has been a lifelong pursuit.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="710" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C710&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Three ballet dancers leaping on stage, silhouette" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C208&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C710&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C533&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1066&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1421&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C833&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1088&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1388&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C278&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-sb10063090y-001-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C710&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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Gene Bruskin was born to a Jewish working-class family in South Philadelphia and has been a life-long social justice activist, union organizer, poet, and playwright. Since retiring from the labor movement, Gene wrote his first play in 2016, a musical comedy for and about work and workers called Pray For the Dead: A Musical Tale of Morgues, Moguls and Mutiny. In this mini-cast we talk to Bruskin about his life in the the labor movement, the role of art and imagination in revolutionary politics, and about Bruskin’s new musical, The Return of John Brown, which is premiering this month in Baltimore, Washington, DC, and the John Brown Raid Headquarters in Maryland. “In a staged reading of this new musical, John Brown, who in 1859 became the first person in the nation executed for treason, climbs out of his grave where he was hanged, into the present, only to be rearrested and threatened with another hanging.”
Additional links/info below…
<ul>
<li><a href="https://www.thereturnofjohnbrown.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">The Return of John Brown </a>(musical,) website</li>
<li>Cosmopod, “<a href="https://cosmonautmag.com/2024/02/gene-bruskin/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Gene Bruskin: A Life in the Labor Movement</a>“</li>
<li>Christina L. Perez, Labor Notes, “<a href="https://labornotes.org/2016/08/prayforthedead-perez-bruskin" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Labor Musical Brings Morgue Workers’ Struggle to Life</a>“</li>
</ul>
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<li>In These Times <a href="https://inthesetimes.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">website</a>, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/inthesetimesmag/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Facebook</a> page, and <a href="https://twitter.com/inthesetimesmag" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Twitter</a> page</li>
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Featured Music…
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<li>Jules Taylor, “Working People” Theme Song</li>
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<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
Studio Production: Maximillian Alvarez Post-Production: Jules Taylor
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Gene Bruskin:
My name is Gene Bruskin and I am a retired union organizer, strategist. I spent 35 years in the labor movement. I retired at the end of 2012, and ended up in being thrown back into the labor movement anyway as a redeployed person. And I’ve spent a lot of time these last few years in particular working with Amazon workers around the country, helping to figure out how to support all these young workers that are taking on the biggest company in the world. But the other thing I’ve done with my retirement, which is really exciting for me, is I went back to an old hobby of mine that I had started before I got into the labor movement and I started writing musicals for workers. And right now, I’m producing my third, The Return of John Brown. But I’ve been doing that work since 2013, 2014, and it’s been very gratifying and very challenging.
Maximillian Alvarez:
All right. Welcome everyone to another episode of Working People, a podcast about the lives, jobs, dreams, and struggles of the working class today. Brought to you in partnership With In These Times Magazine and the Real News Network, produced by Jules Taylor, and made possible by the support of listeners like you. Working People is a proud member of the Labor Radio Podcast Network. So, if you’re hungry for more worker and labor-focused shows like ours, follow the link in the show notes and go check out the other great shows in our network. And please support the work that we are doing here at Working People because we cannot keep going without y’all. Share our episodes with your coworkers, leave positive reviews of the show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and become a paid monthly subscriber on Patreon for just five bucks a month if you want to support the show and unlock all the great bonus episodes that we publish exclusively for our patrons.
And also, please support the work that we are doing at The Real News Network by going to the realnews.com/donate, especially if you want to see more reporting from the frontlines of struggle around the US and around the world. My name is Maximilian Alvarez, and as you guys heard, we got a special guest, a brother, long time veteran of the labor movement, Gene Bruskin here on the pod today to talk about not only his life and work in the movement, but also, this great musical that Gene is getting ready to premiere, including here in Baltimore and in DC and elsewhere. It’s a musical called The Return of John Brown. And I wanted to have Gene on because, as you guys have probably noticed, things are pretty heavy on the podcast of late.
I mean, not that they haven’t been heavy in the past, but as I continue to go down this route of interviewing more working people living in sacrificed zones around the country, people who are in the direct path of destruction, whether that be at the hands of deregulated industry, government and military, and Department of Defense negligence, Wall Street greed, or people who are directly in the path of the worst and growing effects of manmade climate change. This is a really fucking big issue, pardon my French. And so, that’s why I’m continuing to cover it on this show, that’s why I am doing my next book on this subject, but we’ll talk about that more later.
But the point is that that’s all really heavy and important stuff, but also amidst all of this heavy stuff going on in the world, it’s important to remember that there is still art and beauty, and beauty in the struggle to be appreciated and savored. And it’s the kind of thing that makes life worth living. And I want us to also always make space for that, not only here on the show, not only at the Real News Network, but in our movement writ large. We need to feel joy, we need to express ourselves, we need to participate in the activities of creating beauty wherever we can because that’s what we’re fighting for. That’s why it’s so cool to have Gene on the show today.
And like I said, we’re going to talk a little more about Gene’s background in the labor movement, and we’re also going to talk about how all that work and organizing connects to his playwriting and his art. And I just wanted to set the table real quick before we turn things back over to Gene. We will link to the musical’s website, the website for The Return of John Brown in the show notes for this episode. But I just wanted to read from that website, just to give you guys a sense of what the musical is about.
So, on the website, it states, “In a staged reading of this new musical, John Brown, who in 1859 became the first person in the nation executed for treason, climbs out of his grave where he was hanged into the present only to be re-arrested and threatened with another hanging. As his trial unwinds the past and present merge as Brown’s inspiring story is told through humor, music, mystery, and drama depicting a feverishly-charged moment in history that reverberates in today’s political climate. As the plot twists, Brown’s escape plans lead to an unexpected alliance between white and black farmers hoping to save their land from the Smoke & Mirrors Pipeline company and its CEO King Louis. The playwright, gene Bruskin spent 45 years as a labor union organizer and has written three musicals for and about working class people since his retirement.”
“The musical tale connects yesterday’s battles to the need to challenge the enduring destructiveness of racism today.” “The first show will debut on April 26th in Baltimore, followed by a show on April 27th in Washington DC the next weekend on May 4th and 5th, the play will be featured at the Kennedy Farm, the Harpers Ferry, West Virginia area location where John Brown staged his famous anti-slavery raid.”
All right. So, Gene, let’s bring you back in here, man. I want us to of course talk about the play itself and what you are hoping to accomplish with it, and give folks a little more of a taste of what they’re going to see when they go check this musical out. But before we get there, let’s dig a little deeper into your backstory. So, we can’t go like a full hour here and I know you can’t sum up 40 years of life in the movement in 10 minutes. But I’m curious, just tell us a little more about yourself, your life in the movement, how you got into that work, and how you eventually found your way to writing musicals for and about working people.
Gene Bruskin:
Thanks, Max. It’s really a pleasure to be on your show and to have a chance to talk about this. I grew up as a working-class Jewish kid in South Philly. Although my father had been very political in the ’30s, he actually was a young member of the Communist Party. He got discouraged for a variety of reasons. He went fought in World War 2, and then he just had to make a living the rest of his life. Although, he was always reading and he was an intellectual, I just wanted to play basketball and that got me to college and all this stuff. So, I was very much a child of the ’60s. I was a jock who got politicized by all the stuff that was happening around me, fighting, resisting ultimately that I was going to be sent to Vietnam, which changed my life that in order to not go there and die and kill people.
And ironically, at that moment you could get a deferment if you were willing to teach in the New York City schools. It was considered worse than Vietnam.
Maximillian Alvarez:
Jesus.
Gene Bruskin:
I went to teach as a fourth-grade teacher with no training whatsoever in the South Bronx, and that was of course transformational for me. I had grown up in a working-class neighborhood, but I’d never seen that level of poverty and oppression. And so, that sort of factored into my life. And I ended up in Boston in the ’70s, trying to make a living, participating in the various anti-war and other things. And through some quirk of fate, hooked up with a friend of mine who like me, had musicals as part of his growing up in our house playing all the time. My father even drove us up in the station wagon to New York from Philly to see a musical and drove us back because we couldn’t stay in a hotel. But working-class people used to be able to go to Broadway, so it was sort of in my blood.
So, we did a couple very local-based, community-based shows that were political. One was about busing and one was about theft in America. And to get a job in order to help support this work, I got a job driving a school bus. Well, that was in the middle of 1977. That was in the middle of the intense busing fights in Boston, which were very similar in some ways to Alabama in terms of the violence and the attacks on, in this case, African-American children. And our job as bus drivers was to drive the kids from the black community into the white community and vice versa.
But when we picked up the black children and drove them into South Boston, we were violently attacked on a daily basis. And in the end, we drove in and out of that community surrounded by a police escort, and that went on for 10 years. So, during that period, the drivers organized. And ironically, all the sectors of the city, anybody that wanted a job was driving a bus. It didn’t matter whether you were pro-busing, anti-busing, you were pro-paycheck. And so, we were all there. They cut our pay, we went on strike. I went to jail. We won a contract, and we formed a very militant, multiracial community-based union for 10 years and won great contracts.
We had many strikes. Just by accident, I walked in there thinking I was going to do theater in between the runs, and I ended up the local president and chief steward at different times. And so, that launched my labor career, but for the moment, killed my theater career because you can’t do both on an intense level. And eventually, I got an offer to move to DC and work for the National Postal Mail Handlers Union, along with my good buddy Bill Fletcher. So, all of a sudden, I was in Washington DC. And eventually, I was Jesse Jackson’s labor deputy for a couple of years in the ’90s at the National Rainbow Coalition.
And I went on to just work for a variety of national unions on different kind of campaigns, the biggest of which was the Justice at Smithfield campaign, where we organized a 5,000-person local unit in rural South Carolina against Smithfield Foods. And it was one of the biggest wins, this was USCW in the South, in many years. And then, I ended up retiring, working for the American Federation of Teachers, helping them develop strategies to fight the charter industry. And then, since I retired, I ended up going back to my theater roots. I’d written three musicals, and in the meantime, I was also working with the railroad workers, DMWE with ATU over time. And eventually, these last few years, doing a lot of work with Amazon workers in a lot of different locations.
But my passion beyond the labor movement is figuring out how to make culture a part of the movement. Because if you try to imagine the Civil Rights movement in the United States succeeding if they weren’t allowed to sing, it’s hard to imagine… If you try to imagine the anti-apartheid movement in Africa winning without a note being sung, you can’t imagine it. And we had a vibrant political labor and other kind of culture coming into World War II in the ’20s and ’30s, but commercial television and the commercial movies just overwhelmed it, with a few exceptions. And so, I’ve been trying to make my small contribution to bring it back, and it’s been very well-received to the point that I’ve been able to do it without having a Broadway budget. And I’m back now with The Return of John Brown opening in Baltimore the 26th of April.
Maximillian Alvarez:
Man, so first I’m just going to say, that’s quite a career in the movement. That’s quite a life in the movement. So, we’re going to have to have you and maybe some of the folks from Boston on together to… I want to unpack that whole period and hear from you guys what it was like to work and organize in that moment. That’s just wild to hear. But before we go to The Return of John Brown, I have to ask as someone who, like you said, just kind of through chance encounter, luck and being in a certain place at a certain time, you got into this job and that kicked off a life of organizing and working within the labor movement.
Looking back now, as someone who spent all those decades in the movement, even if you didn’t intend to from the beginning, for my generation of folks who have just been really getting into that movement in recent years, I mean, I think a lot of left-leaning millennials and progressive millennials after Bernie Sanders’ 2016 run, a lot of those folks went into the labor movement, and a lot of them are working for unions. A lot of them are salts trying to unionize different facilities. That’s one way in which I think the Bernie phenomenon did have an aftereffect, and I’ve seen and heard it firsthand from a lot of folks. But we’re still kind of in the early stages of our lives in that movement. And so, I guess I was just curious to ask, as a veteran of that movement, what do you wish you had known back in the day or what would you say to younger folks getting into that movement now about how this is a life’s work and what you wish you had known when you were getting into it at the beginning?
Gene Bruskin:
Great question. When I got into the labor movement in the ’70s, it was sort of part of a resurgence of the left, and also, the working-class left. Going beyond the SDS days of the ’70s, a lot of those people came out and went to work somewhere. And so, when I started getting into the labor movement, it never occurred to me to go back and talk to the veterans who had been through the ’30s and the ’40s, and they were alive. But we sort of had this idea that what did they know? And we were going to form a new left-wing parties and all this stuff, and I just never asked, and that was a huge mistake. That was a huge mistake. And we sort of had to learn a lot of things over again. And over time, I became more and more a student of history and realized the incredible valuable lessons.
What’s really exciting to me now is that young people are coming to me and a lot of other veterans in the labor movement and inviting us in as mentors, as friends, to share our experiences, to back them in all kinds of different ways. And there’s an openness and an understanding that there’s a lot to learn, even though we don’t have all the answers, and if we did, things would’ve been very different. But we did learn a lot. And to me, I just encourage all the younger workers that I’ve had a chance to work with, to study that history, to talk to people who’ve lived it, and then to do your own thinking. And so, that combination is what we really need.
Maximillian Alvarez:
Yeah. No, I think that’s so important and well-put. It’s something that we talk about a lot here at the Real News Network because I’m lucky enough to get to work with… We’re a very generationally-diverse crew. We’ve got folks like Mark Steiner who’s been in the Civil Rights movement, intersecting with the labor movement for 50 years. We had Eddie Conway, legendary Black Panther and founder of Rattling the Bars here. And now, his show after Brother Eddie’s passing is hosted by Mansa Musa who was locked up for 48 years. We have Chris Hedges and Dave Ziron. And so, getting those folks to talk more to our younger folks, and also vice versa, I think is one of the things that makes what we do at the Real News special.
And it’s also expanded to the broader field, like you were saying, taken in terms of the movement. That intergenerational dialogue is so critical, whether we’re talking about the labor movement, the prison abolition movement. Just having those direct linkages to the past and learning from the experiences and successes and failures of our movement ancestors is really important in the same way that, as always, it’s really important for the elders in the movement to welcome in the young people, and always approach each other with this spirit of openness like we all have something to learn from each other, like you said. That’s the secret sauce. That’s, I think, so critical and why it’s so cool that you and I are talking right now. So, let’s talk about how culture, like you said, plays into that. The role that you see culture and musicals and plays and art, why that’s so essential for our movement and how you’re approaching that with this new musical, The Return of John Brown.
Gene Bruskin:
Yeah, thanks. There’s a lot there. One thing I’ve noticed in Boston, we sort of started this impromptu song group called Red Basement Singers because there was a store called the Red Book, and we used to practice in the basement there. And we used to just go around the rallies. We’d get on the subway in Boston and sing Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh and things like that. And what I noticed is that when people are singing, they smile. It’s hard to be sad while you’re singing. And so, it just felt like that music and culture is a way to get people to feel and to be inspired and to enjoy the kind of things that they’re doing because the seriousness and difficulty of organizing, making 50 phone calls, getting beaten up by the police, whatever it is, it’s intense. But the joy, like you mentioned before, and the love, you can’t always feel it. But with the music, you can feel that.
When I retired at the end of 2012, I was trying to absorb thousands of different kinds of workers I had engaged with during my life. The meatpacking workers, the nurses, the nurses’ aides, and of course, the bus drivers, the laundry workers. And these are all these incredible people, most of whom don’t ever get noticed. Who’s responsible for this pork chop that’s on your table? Who cleaned the sheets that you’re lying in in the hospital? And so, I wanted to do culture that was for and about them. And so, just taking all the faces and the people and the situations that I had, I started constructing stories and started doing some historical research and then trying to figure out how to fill the seats with the same people who the play is about. And so, my first show was called Pray for the Dead: A Musical Tale of Morgues, Moguls and Mutinies. And it was a fantasy of an uprising in an unknown country led by morgue workers, who went on strike because a funeral home was going to close.
And what I did is knowing that if I set it up in a church or a theater and asked unions to bring members to a musical, people would’ve said, “What?” Because theater and musicals in this country are like operas to the average bus driver or waitress or whatever, because they’re too expensive. The $40, $50, $100, Hamilton, $1,000. And so, I arranged with the unions, mostly in the Maryland area,, to put this show on at the union halls. And it was great. Unfortunately, at the end of when… This was done as musical stage screenings, at the end of that time, Trump got elected and I couldn’t move it to the next level because everybody was in a panic.
My second musical was staged in Baltimore. It was called The Moment Was Now, and it was staged in a church in Baltimore in 2019, 2020. It was about reconstruction, and that’s a period of history which I was inspired by W. E. B. Du Bois to tell the true story of it and the story that linked the working-class movements of the National Labor Union with the women’s movements, the suffragette women’s right to vote movements, the Susan B. Anthonys of the world, with the freedom movements coming out of the Southern struggles and with the black workers that were organizing into unions at the time and center it in Baltimore.
And I just went to the Central Labor Council in Baltimore to the State Federation of the AFL to 1199 retirees, and the Baltimore Teachers Union, we filled the theater most nights with a musical that was a historical piece with poetic license. I took the actual words of a lot of these characters and made them into songs. So, for example, there’s a black worker organizing in the shipyards in Baltimore where Frederick Douglass escaped from where they were attacked by the Irish, driven out of the shipyards at one point. He gets invited to speak to a national meeting of the National Labor Union by William Silvers, the president, and he says, “You have to explain to them why they need the black workers.”
And that speech got on the front page of the New York Times the next day. Probably the last labor speech that was ever on the front page there. He sings a song, “Does your we include me?” With his actual words from his speech. Any rate, that was shut down in 2020 by COVID, our last performance was March 8th, 2020. There’s a tremendous film that was done of it, high quality that people have been watching since if anybody ever wanted to see it. Anyway, during COVID, I started on another play and that’s turned into The Return of John Brown. And that’s because I was thinking if there’s one white person, being white, Jewish, European American, who people know of who stood up against racism, and in this case slavery, besides Abe Lincoln, it’s probably John Brown.
So, I went back, did a lot of homework. I read Du Bois’ book on Brown. And what I decided is not to spend all the time talking about what John Brown did then, that’s the opening of the play, but I just decided to bring him into the present. So, after the sort of historical moment at the beginning of play when he’s hanged, he magically climbs out of the ground right where they hanged him in Charlestown, Virginia. And they re-arrest him and hang him again and put him on trial. And so, the story of race and history and all that comes out in the trial itself, and there’s a lot of comedy, they threaten to hang him again and he sings a song, “You can’t hang the same man twice.” And there’s a lot of comedy in it, there’s a lot of history, and there’s a lot of drama, we hope.
So, now we’re getting ready to try it out as a musical stage reading. We’ve got some great actors. It’s not fully staged with the scenery and all that. So, we’re taking it to the people we want them to come, it’s free. Then we want them to stay afterwards, discuss John Brown, discuss the play we’re doing, make suggestions, be part of the process, and help us move it to the next stage, literally, and put the page to the stage, maybe even in a Baltimore theater. As you mentioned, we have a website, www.thereturnofjohnbrown.com, you can get free tickets. It starts at the end of this month. And the last two performances in the beginning of May are at the actual location of the John Brown farm. It’s called the Kennedy Farm, in Sharpsburg, Maryland, right near Harpers Ferry where John Brown staged the raid. We’re going to be on the grounds, the backdrop to the stage is going to be the cabin, and there’ll be a live tour before the show.
Maximillian Alvarez:
Man, that’s so badass, and it makes me think of… I was with some brothers and sisters from the labor movement at the end of last year. We were all down in Matewan, West Virginia at the Museum of the West Virginia Mine Wars, and we saw some reenactments from the locals there, the famous Battle of Blair Mountain and stuff, walking on hallowed ground, thinking about that history and thinking about how it connected to us all being there. That’s so powerful that you guys are going to be doing that there on that ground. And for listeners, again, this is going to have to be a teaser for y’all so that you go and check out the musical itself because there’s so much here we could unpack, but we want y’all to go partake of it and let us know what you think.
But I guess just by way of a final teaser, and by way of a final question before I let you go, Gene, this of course is a tradition, a literary tradition of resurrecting key historical figures in contemporary times, right? I’m thinking of Fyodor Dostoevsky’s famous bringing Jesus back to what was then contemporary Russia, and how would society respond to Jesus’s teachings today? So, I was just curious, you started working on this amidst COVID, we know the George Floyd uprising happened the same year. So, I guess I just wanted to ask, why John Brown and why now? What you really feel folks should be thinking about, about that scenario that you’re painting of why this felt like such a profound artistic question to ask at this moment?
Gene Bruskin:
Yeah, thank you. And I’m just going to say quickly, because I have found that because of the failure of our public education system, even at the college level, many people don’t know who John Brown is and that his claim to fame was that, among a lot of other things he did, in 1859, he staged a raid with a group of black and white people on the armory in Harpers Ferry, West Virginia in an attempt to get guns and hand them out to enslaved people and begin an insurrection, and it didn’t work. He was hanged. He was captured and hanged. But at that moment, that story played on the front page of every newspaper in the country, and his final words were printed on the front pages. The South was terrified. The North’s conscience was pulsated. And John Brown said that the, “Slavery cannot be ended except by violence.” People thought that was questionable, but it turned out Abe Lincoln had came to the same conclusion, and 700,000 people died.
So, that story, when watching the Black Lives Matter movement happened and watching the difficulty from people have talking about race and racism, I wanted to do a show that shows the impact of racism and watch one of the protagonists in this show who changes is the racist white farmer who gets educated during this process about his own confusion when he’s losing his land to a pipeline company because he won’t talk to the black farmers. And John Brown intervenes, brings them together and that story unfolds. So, I have found that if you’re sitting in the audience and you got some of these attitudes, but you’re watching them play out on the stage, no one’s coming at you in your class or whatever. And you can sort of think about it.
And then, afterwards we sit around, you can talk about it. I think that that’s a way to sort of get to this. And so, I’m happy for all the audiences, but I’m happy for some white working-class people there who they didn’t like John Brown, but they’re curious. And so, I think this is the right moment right now. We have to learn our history and you can’t understand the present if you don’t understand the past.
Maximillian Alvarez:
All right, gang, that’s going to wrap things up for us this week. I want to thank our guest, Gene Bruskin. And as always, I want to thank you all for listening and I want to thank you for caring. If you want to learn more about Gene’s new musical, The Return of John Brown, go to thereturnofjohnbrown.com or use the link in the show notes of this episode. And again, the first show is going to debut on April 26 here in Baltimore, followed by a show on April 27th in Washington DC, and the details you can find on the website. And then, the next weekend on May 4th and 5th, the play will be featured at the Kennedy Farm, the Harpers Ferry, West Virginia area location where John Brown staged his famous anti-slavery raid.
We’ll see y’all back here next week for another episode of Working People. And if you cannot wait that long, then go subscribe to our Patreon and check out the awesome bonus episodes that we’ve got there for all of our patrons. And of course, go explore all the great work that we’re doing at The Real News Network where we do grassroots journalism that lifts up the voices and stories from the front lines of struggle. Sign up for the Real News Newsletter, so you never miss a story. And help us do more work like this by going to therealnews.com/donate and becoming a supporter today. I’m Maximilian Alvarez. Take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. Solidarity forever.
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<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312316</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>Tennessee Volkswagen workers vote union</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/tennessee-volkswagen-workers-vote-union</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Luis Feliz Leon]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[labor]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[UAW]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312322</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Kelcey Smith displays UAW buttons in Chattanooga, Tennessee on April 10, 2024. Photo by Kevin Wurm for The Washington Post via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>“If Volkswagen workers at plants in Germany and Mexico have unions, why not us?” said one worker, ahead of the vote.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Kelcey Smith displays UAW buttons in Chattanooga, Tennessee on April 10, 2024. Photo by Kevin Wurm for The Washington Post via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147820209-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
<div class="wp-block-media-text is-stacked-on-mobile" style="grid-template-columns:33% auto"><figure class="wp-block-media-text__media"><img decoding="async" width="780" height="158" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=780%2C158&ssl=1" alt="Labor Notes logo" class="wp-image-276698 size-full" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=1024%2C208&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=300%2C61&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=768%2C156&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=1536%2C312&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=1200%2C244&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=1568%2C319&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=400%2C81&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=706%2C144&ssl=1 706w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?w=2026&ssl=1 2026w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3-1024x208.jpg?w=370&ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure><div class="wp-block-media-text__content">
This story originally appeared in <a href="https://labornotes.org/2024/04/tennessee-volkswagen-workers-vote-union" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Labor Notes</a> on Apr. 19, 2024. It is shared here with permission.
</div></div>
In a watershed victory, workers at the Volkswagen factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee, voted tonight “UAW, yes!” The company’s sole non-union plant will finally join the rest of the world.
“If Volkswagen workers at plants in Germany and Mexico have unions, why not us?” said equipment operator Briam Calderon in Spanish, ahead of the vote.
“Just like Martin Luther King had a dream, we have a dream at Volkswagen that we will be UAW one day,” said Renee Berry, a logistic worker on the organizing committee who’s worked at the plant for 14 years.
The UAW is riding a <a href="https://labornotes.org/2023/11/auto-workers-direct-momentum-toward-organizing-plants-across-us" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">wave of momentum</a> after winning landmark contracts at the Big 3 automakers last year. Production workers at Volkswagen earn $23 per hour and top out above $32, compared to $43 for production workers at Ford’s Spring Hill assembly plant by the contract’s end in 2028.
“We could see what other auto workers were making compared to what we were making,” said Yolanda Peoples, <a href="https://prospect.org/labor/2024-02-15-southern-autoworkers-organize-vw-business-class-tries-to-wallop/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">a member of the organizing committee</a> on the engine assembly line.
To head off a union drive, Volkswagen boosted wages 11 percent to match the immediate raise UAW members received at Ford. Peoples saw her pay jump from $29 to $32 an hour.
“When they went on strike, we paid close attention just to see what happened. Once they won their contract, it changed a lot of people from anti-union to pro-union members,” said Peoples.
Today’s vote was a key test of whether the union could springboard the strike gains to propel <a href="https://labornotes.org/2024/04/southern-auto-workers-are-rising" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">new organizing in longtime anti-union bastions in the South</a>, the anchors of big investments in the electric-vehicle transition.
The vote was 2,628 in favor of forming a union to 985 against. There were seven challenged ballots, and three voided; 4,326 workers were eligible to vote.
Previous efforts at this plant in 2014 and 2019 had gone down to narrow defeats. Ahead of the vote, workers said their co-workers had learned from those losses.
They brushed off threats that a union would make the plant less competitive and lead it to close. After all, VW invested $800 million here in 2019 to produce the I.D. Electric SUV.
“We have seen the enemy’s playbook twice, and they don’t have any new moves,” said Zach Costello, a member of the organizing committee and a trainer on the assembly line. “It’s the greatest hits now.”
The organizing committee beat the predictable anti-union talking points with conversations across the plant.
“At the end of the day, we’ve been focusing all our time and attention on the people who matter,” said organizing committee member Isaac Meadows, “and it’s our co-workers who cast votes.
“Now Mercedes workers [in Alabama] are right behind us. We’ve set the stage for them to win and they will create the momentum for Hyundai and Toyota.”
Mercedes workers will vote from May 13-16, with a ballot count on the 17.
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-turning-to-fellow-workers">Turning to fellow workers</h2>
Angel Gomez knows the benefits that come with a union card, having been a steward with the Food and Commercial Workers (UFCW) and the Teamsters at two previous jobs.
Gomez followed his family to Tennessee after working at Smithfield Foods and Molson Coors in Wisconsin, as well as Ford in New Jersey, where his father put in 30 years. He was hired at VW last November. He works on the underbodies of gleaming Atlas SUVs as they travel down the line at a steady clip.
“At first I wasn’t involved in the union,” Gomez said, because the moment he opened his mouth people knew he was from up North; he didn’t want them to write him off while he was still getting acclimated. “Down here I’m the Yankee. Perception is everything. I didn’t want people to see a slick-talking New Yorker from the Bronx.”
But despite his trepidations, soon people were approaching him to talk about problems at the plant: “People started telling me—white, Black, it didn’t matter—about all the favoritism.”
He started talking to a handful of Spanish-speaking workers from Venezuela, Chile, the Dominican Republic, and Mexico—who saw in a Puerto Rican worker someone from their culture, who could shed light on the union drive because of his own union experiences.
“I took a special interest in looking out for people who do their thing, take care of their families, and they always get f—ed with at the job,” Gomez said. He said these people tended to be Spanish-speaking workers who kept their heads down and did as they were told.
He said he convinced the Latino workers in his department to vote for the union. But he doesn’t sugarcoat the challenges. Some people think “if you don’t believe in what uncle daddy Trump is telling you, then you’re a bad person,” he said. “That’s been the biggest drawback—the whole political aspect coming from the right.”
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-no-partisan-politics">No partisan politics</h2>
Meadows said the worker-organizers had learned from past drives not to get too drawn into partisan politics, and that conducting house visits wasn’t worth the backlash.
Instead, this time around, workers emphasized talking to their co-workers on the shop floor, covering 90 percent of the plant with leaders on every line.
They also kept the focus on workers improving their jobs and bettering the lives of their families, rather than getting drawn into a fight with GOP actors, an astroturf campaign, or a billboard war.
“Partisan politics has nothing to do with what we’re doing here,” said Meadows.
A recent poll conducted for the conservative Beacon Center found that 44 percent of respondents statewide in Tennessee <a href="https://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2024/apr/14/uaw-viewed-more-favorably-than-unfavorably-in/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">viewed the UAW favorably</a>, while just 19 percent viewed it unfavorably.
Ahead of the vote, Tennessee Republican Governor Bill Lee warned workers they shouldn’t “risk their future” by voting for the UAW and urged them not to give up “the freedom to decide it themselves and hand that over to a negotiator on their behalf.”
“His message is wrong,” said Meadows. “Right now, the only choice we have at this place is, do I stay or do I quit.”
Lee was reprising his role from 2019, when he also opposed the drive, stumping alongside the plant’s chief executive officer. At the time, Meadows said, workers booed the governor, and the union drive lost support because of it. This time they’ve grown their committees by focusing on each other instead of the politicians.
“People for the most part are smartening up. And they’re not paying attention to the political crap,” said Gomez. “The politicians know nothing about blue-collar work. They are born with a silver spoon in their mouths.”
Take Governor Lee, <a href="https://archive.ph/fPPKF#selection-983.24-983.188" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">heir to a wealthy construction family business</a> with annual revenues upwards of $220 million in 2019 when he became governor.
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-we-are-driving-this-ship">“We are driving this ship”</h2>
Like last time, there was a union-busting website, stillnouaw.com, this time with a social media post from former President Trump attacking UAW President Shawn Fain and equating voting for the union with supporting President Biden.
But the anti-union Facebook page only had 15 “likes” as of this week. Previous opposition groups counted hundreds of open supporters. Tennesseans for Economic Freedom, a business group, ran Facebook ads emblazoned with the message: “UAW would spend our paychecks on politics.”
“They still have not realized that we are making the decision for ourselves,” said Victor Vaughn, a member of the organizing committee. “We are the ones driving this ship.”
Congressperson Chuck Fleischmann got the message. Even though he opposed the last drive, this time Fleischmann bucked his Republican colleagues and refused to intervene. “This is something that I’m going to let the workers decide,” he <a href="https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tennessee-republican-volkswagen-union-vote_n_6616a5c6e4b0c01a9ee42acb" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">told HuffPost</a>.
Overall, the GOP campaign against the current UAW organizing wave hasn’t been as vicious or coordinated as in previous drives. Only after the union filed for elections in Alabama and Tennessee did the governors of Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas issue a joint statement opposing the union.
They <a href="https://governor.alabama.gov/newsroom/2024/04/governor-ivey-other-southern-governors-issue-joint-statement-in-opposition-to-united-auto-workers-uaws-unionization-campaign/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">wrote</a> that they were seeing “the fallout of the Detroit Three strike with those automakers rethinking investments and cutting jobs. Putting businesses in our states in that position is the last thing we want to do.”
The threats are implied. But compare that to 2014, when Tennessee Senator Bob Corker said the VW plant would get a new SUV production line if workers rejected the UAW, and state politicians threatened to withhold tax incentives should workers vote the UAW in.
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-talking-paper">Talking paper</h2>
In the lead-up to this week’s election, supervisors would read verbatim from a company newsletter called “The Talking Paper,” written in such a way that it cast doubts about the union without crossing over into unfair labor practice territory.
“Every time the ‘Talking Paper’ comes out,” Costello said, “even my supervisor is like ‘It’s gonna take a while,’ because they have to read every word as it is written. They cannot Cliff Notes it.”
Even so, the lion’s share of the unfair labor practice charges the UAW has filed in this organizing wave so far have been at Volkswagen. “We’ve seen the liars that they are when they say they’re neutral,” Costello said.
To beat past union drives, the company promised to boost wages and address safety. But workers said these turned out to be empty promises. In 2019, Volkswagen brought back the company president who had originally opened the plant.
“Everybody loved Frank Fisher,” said Peoples, who was hired in 2011. “So when he came and pleaded, and pretty much said, ‘Give Volkswagen one more chance here in Chattanooga, we aren’t finished yet, we’re going to make some changes, and I’ll be right here with you,’ that pretty much swayed a lot of people and turned their votes into nos.”
“People understand that they’re just trying to trick us one more time like they did the two times previously,” said Vaughn.
Costello said Volkswagen shipped Fisher back to Germany soon after the vote. “The conditions in the plant slammed back to the brutal meat grinder that it always was,” he said. “And we have carried that with us into this campaign.”
Renee sustained multiple surgeries in her long tenure at the plant. Going into the campaign, she said safety was her top concern. “I want to come out of work the same way I came in,” she said. But conditions at the plant have deteriorated to the point where she says workers agonize over whether they’ll come out of work alive or maimed.
“You may lose a leg or a hand,” she said. “I got synthetic in my shoulder” from a rotator cuff tear. “I have a three-year-old granddaughter who I can’t pick up. So my life has changed, but I’m still going to keep going because I’ve put too much blood, sweat and tears into this plant.”
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-gateway-to-the-south">Gateway to the South</h2>
Labor historian Nelson Lichtenstein compared tonight’s win to the Union Army’s victory in Chattanooga in 1863, during the U.S. Civil War, when President Abraham Lincoln declared it “the gateway to the South.”
Taking Chattanooga, Lichtenstein said, “opened the door to the capture of Atlanta, the rest of Georgia, and the Carolinas.
“With UAW’s win at Volkswagen, another gateway to the South has been opened. No longer will the wage-and-benefit standards of the million-strong auto workforce in the U.S. be set by the non-union portion of the industry. A militant and increasingly powerful UAW will set the standard.”
Costello, too, sees new horizons opening up. “If workers can unite in this country, I think we can move a lot,” he said. “We could even effect change that goes beyond our workplace.”
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<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312322</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>The ‘Women’s Cut’—Maryland’s only women’s prison</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/the-womens-cut-marylands-only-womens-prison</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mansa Musa]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Mon, 22 Apr 2024 16:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Prisons and Policing]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Rattling the Bars]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Prison Industrial Complex]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[prison reform]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312298</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="681" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C681&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="The Maryland Correctional Institution for Women is the state's only prison for women. Photo by Andre Chung for The Washington Post via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C681&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C511&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1022&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1363&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C798&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1043&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1331&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C266&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C681&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Though state law upholds gender equality for incarcerated people on paper, the reality of limited facilities, services, and a byzantine bureaucratic structure.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="681" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C681&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="The Maryland Correctional Institution for Women is the state's only prison for women. Photo by Andre Chung for The Washington Post via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C681&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C511&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1022&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1363&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C798&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1043&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1331&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C266&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1228133980-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C681&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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For decades, prisoners’ rights advocates have called on the State of Maryland to address its flagrant discrimination against prisoners housed in the state’s sole women’s prison. As The Real News has previously reported, <a href="https://therealnews.com/it-is-torture-women-in-marylands-prisons-have-nowhere-to-turn" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">conditions in the Maryland Correctional Institute for Women are akin to “torture,”</a> and the lack of resources and services dedicated to incarcerated women amounts to <a href="https://therealnews.com/how-maryland-discriminates-against-women-prisoners" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">state-sanctioned, gender-based discrimination</a>. Christina Merryman and Ameena Deramous, both former inmates in the MCIW—or the “Women’s Cut”—join Rattling the Bars, explaining the conditions faced by incarcerated women in Maryland, and what advocates inside and outside the prison walls are doing to fight for justice, in the first half of this two-part panel.
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Studio Production: David Hebden Post-Production: Cameron Granadino
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Mansa Musa:
Welcome to Rattling the Bars here on The Real News Network. I’m your host, Mansa Musa.
In the 19th century, women prisoners were first housed in a quarter reserved for them at the Maryland Penitentiary. They were later lodged in a section of the Maryland House of Correction, which opened in 1879. Overall, there are 854 women in the state correction system today, including women in Baltimore City Detention Center for Women, the Patuxent Institution, and intensive care treatment facilities that include male and female inmates, and the Central Home Detention unit which monitors women in their home.
The Maryland House of Correction, commonly known as the Women’s Cut, is the only institution for women in the state. This is a major problem. There’s a stark difference between how incarcerated men and women are treated in Maryland and what resources are made available to them. The procedures governing parole, security reduction, family leave, and work release are different for women in the system. I sat down to talk about the Women’s Cut with Christina Merryman and Ameena Deramous, both formerly incarcerated. Here’s part one of our conversation.
Okay. Welcome to this edition of Rattling the Bars, Ameena and Christina. Ameena, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
My name is Ameena. I was just released from the Maryland Correctional Institution for Women, MCIW, in Jessup, Maryland, on January 31st.
Mansa Musa:
Welcome home.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
Thank you, thank you. I have four children. I’m one of four daughters from my parents, and I was incarcerated for first-degree assault and false imprisonment. I did not know, prior to my incarceration, how broken I was or the meaning of being triggered, but once I was incarcerated I was able to, sitting down, get myself together, seek help spiritually, mentally. There were several things that could have helped me a lot quicker, but a lot of things aren’t available.
Mansa Musa:
Right. We’re going to talk about that and like I said, welcome home.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
Thank you.
Mansa Musa:
[foreign language 00:02:43]. Ameena’s fasting. Today is the first day of Ramadan.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
[foreign language 00:02:47].
Mansa Musa:
We’re thankful to have her here and to be able to share her experience and her stories with us. Christina, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Christina Merryman:
Hello, my name is Christina. I am a mother of two beautiful children. I am a very busy person. I work two jobs. I was released from MCIW on May 4th of this year. I came home. I got right involved with the PREPARE organization. I’m a parole advocate. I help incarcerated persons prepare for parole and go to their hearings and reenter society. I also work as an electrician. I got into the electrical trade. I am very involved with my family. I have a wonderful family, a great support network, that has stuck by my side through everything I have been through. I was away for almost six and a half years, and I got to know who I was. I got to humble myself and become a very grateful individual throughout that stay at MCIW.
Mansa Musa:
And, like I told y’all earlier, I was incarcerated in the Maryland system. I did 48. Years much like yourselves, at some point in the course of my incarceration, I had an epiphany about what I needed to do in order to maintain my sanity, because that’s one of the most important things for me at that juncture was, if I could stay sane, I could possibly survive. If I lose my sanity, I know I’m not going to survive. I commend both of y’all.
And this being International Women’s Month, I wanted to get in this space primarily to educate our audience on the prison industrial complex. We talk about it and how massive it is, but I wanted to really get into the impact that it has on women. And Angela Davis and them, they wrote a book called They Come in the Morning, they come for us at night, but in that book, it was a lot of the authors, the writers of the articles, was women and most of the women was locked up during that time, but they was locked up for their political views and that’s why they put this document out.
But when we look at the Women’s Cut, and I call it the Women’s Cut’s, it’s commonly referred to as the Women’s Cut, and it’s because of the Men’s Cut, which is now … they demolished it because of the debaucherie and the humanity that was going on in it. Ultimately, it came to a point where they just leveled it to the ground. But when you think of the Men’s Cut and some of the things that went on in there, I remember, back in the ’70s, networking with some of the sisters in the Women’s Cut when we was doing some organizing around trying to get certain things changed, and it was some real aggressive sisters. Some them was Moorish Americans, some them was Muslim, some them was just advocates that was trying to get some things done to change the way the conditions were down there.
And you said, Ameena, that you just got out. How much time did you do prior to getting out?
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
14 years.
Mansa Musa:
All right, so you did 14 years. When you went into the Women’s Cut, you was classified as maximum security initially?
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
I was.
Mansa Musa:
All right. And, during the course of your incarceration in there, did your security level ever drop?
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
It dropped down to medium, and when I went up for parole, I got an immediate release. It never had the opportunity to drop down any further than that and I never had the opportunity to have access to pre-release groups or classes that would’ve prepared me for my releases.
Mansa Musa:
And the tragedy in that is, I was telling Christina off mic, when we go … the men’s system … and by no stretch of the imagination do I claim to be a model prisoner. Matter of fact, I was a real live irritant to the system, and I had multiple situations. I’ve been in every jail, super-max. That’s let you know my background. But I went from max to medium, then back to max, because my behavior, from max to medium again, back to max, then to super-max. But, in each case, I had available to me, and men have available to them, the ability to go from max, medium, minimum and pre-release. In each one of these situations they’re given, they’re put in another institution, they’re given more privileges, and they’re given the ability to acclimate themselves back into society.
How does that play out with the women, Christina?
Christina Merryman:
MCIW keeps everyone housed together. I did have the ability to drop my security levels. I entered at maximum, I reduced to medium, I reduced to minimum, I reduced to pre-release, and then I reduced to work-release. I actually left the facility every day, went to an outside facility to work, and was transported back to the facility. And I had to pay rent, I had to pay fees, I had to pay room and board, transportation fees out of my check to the institution. I believe it was 25% of my overall pay that they took out of my check for me to live at the institution.
However, I was still housed with everyone, of all security levels. They do not offer a separate housing facility for any of the inmates that are, or I’m sorry, incarcerated persons, they are now referred as, for any of the different security levels. They did, right before I left, put a pre-release housing level unit as a separate section within the facility, but still housed people of all levels on that housing unit
Mansa Musa:
Okay. Now, in terms of that right there, so everybody’s in the same environment at the same time. How do they determine what you get in comparison to what other security levels get? Like I said, if I’m in a man’s facility … I left from JCI, I left from right down in that region, and they had medium, minimum, they had minimum, then they had work-release, and the men in work-release was going out working at Golden Corral and all these different places and coming back, and they was getting family leave. I just didn’t get that because I had a mandatory out, which is I made my mandatory as far as my parole. That’s the only reason why. But in terms of … did y’all get family leave?
Christina Merryman:
No.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
Absolutely not.
Christina Merryman:
Denied.
Mansa Musa:
Did y’all-
Christina Merryman:
All requests denied.
Mansa Musa:
In terms of work release?
Christina Merryman:
Denied, all requests denied, for any special privileges, any special requests, any special anything, denied
Mansa Musa:
And what was the reason, in any case?
Christina Merryman:
The biggest reason they always referred to towards the end of my stay was COVID. Even though COVID was over with for two years, it was still COVID. That was their biggest go-to, any request that I ever made for the family leave, because I always brought it up when I was on work-release with the COMAR codes and everything was, “I’m entitled to this, I’m entitled to that.” No, COVID, denied.
Mansa Musa:
And when you refer to COMAR, that’s Code of Maryland Regulations and that’s the regulatory. They regulate the policies and procedures around the state of Maryland and different agencies, the Department of Public Safety and Corrections is one of the many. And then the Department of Public Safety and Correction, when they do a COMAR, COMAR has parole regulations in there. COMAR has work-release regulations in there. COMAR have family leave regulations in there. COMAR have pre-release regulations in there. COMAR even have the ability where you can go out, as we was talking, in the Maryland system, you don’t have to go to work-release, you can go to school, you can ask, “I want to go to Coppin State College, I’m pre-release, I want go to Coppin State College and come back.” And according to the Maryland regulations, this ability exist. Did y’all see that?
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
I had just left in January. Those rules don’t exist. They exist on paper only. They don’t exist. They’re not being applied, and it’s really, really hard to fight them. The three jobs that the women are allowed to have at MCIW is Panera Bread, Hardee’s, and the Maryland correctional Enterprises. We are being told that we can’t work anywhere where there are men. The ladies that are in the work-release program, they’re double-bunked, and they’re paying over $700 a month and they’re double-bunked. We have what looks like a pre-release unit, but it’s just another housing unit. Those ladies will never be able to have pre-release opportunities inside of a correctional facility. It’s not possible. We’re all there together. When you were on work-release, I was there, and I wasn’t pre-release or minimum. I was either medium or maximum, but I saw you.
Christina Merryman:
Yep. Every day.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
Right? Things existed in writing, on paper, but not in reality.
Mansa Musa:
And I recall … because we did this, we interviewed a sister that was advocating for, in the Women’s Cut, and trying to get some policies, more importantly, trying to get the State Assembly and the governor to build separate facilities for women or create a mechanism where they can get out and have access to the same things that men … and it became apparent that, for whatever reason, y’all not relevant, and for whatever reason. Why do you think that? Why do you think that the men … and mind you now, I told you, I’ve been to all the institutions, it’s not no cakewalk on that side.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
It’s not.
Mansa Musa:
It’s not no cakewalk with men, but in terms of the availability, why you think that y’all being … and this is what I want the audience to understand, we talking about the same rules and regulations. If I get caught with money in prison or a knife in prison, they going to find a rule, contraband category one, lock me on behind the door.
You get caught with a knife, money, in a prison, category one, you going behind the door. I go up for parole, they can say, “Okay, go get the work-release before you come back up.” I can come back up for parole, and this is what I want the audience to understand, I can come back up for parole and be in a work-release environment, be working in Golden Corral, been working there for the last six months, and when I go back up for parole, say, “This is where I’ve been at.” They can tell you the same thing, say, no, they ain’t going to tell you that, because they tell you that mean that they got to have you do something that the institution’s saying I do. Isn’t that a problem in terms of parole?
Christina Merryman:
Yes, because parole puts stipulations and regulations that they want the incarcerated person to accomplish. MCIW makes it virtually impossible for us to accomplish those things. First off, you can’t get into classes when you’re not on a certain level. The administration chooses who they want to choose and place in those classes. There is no proper procedure. The people in the administration, and the certain officers that handle the way they choose the incarcerated persons to participate, have their favorites. Honestly, it’s like you are in a high school all over again. There is no proper structure, there is no proper help, and you can’t go to a certain officer to have help because, when you do, it gets back to the entire population. It’s horrible.
Mansa Musa:
And you say you did 13 or 14 of your …
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
Yes.
Mansa Musa:
How much time did you have? What was your overall sentence?
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
I had life suspend all but 25.
Mansa Musa:
Right. You did did 15-
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
14-
Mansa Musa:
14-
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
… off of my life suspend-
Mansa Musa:
So you mandatoried out?
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
No, I didn’t mandatory out, but I definitely did-
Mansa Musa:
You went out with days?
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
Yeah.
Mansa Musa:
You made parole with days?
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
Well, I just made parole. I was granted parole, and if I had not made parole I would still be there because of the system. Let me reiterate some of the things-
Mansa Musa:
Come on.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
… that she said. Again, we have a list of groups and classes and programs on paper, but we don’t have those groups and programs active.
Christina Merryman:
True.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
We have groups and classes and programs that you can be certified in and you can take those classes if they pick you. And, once you’re done with that class, the testing part isn’t there.
You have a certification class that’s being given without the certification. Then do you have a certification class?
Mansa Musa:
No, you just do a class.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
Okay. And we may have three or four of them, and then we lose the instructors, and so then we don’t have those. Hospitality, certification class, I was in that class when the instructor left for whatever reason and didn’t finish it. They said they were going to do cosmetology, but they did a barbering course in the women’s prison. And the ladies have taken … before I left, they were on their second group going through, and the first group, they still hadn’t figured out how they were going to test. The staff, I was in the military, I was in the United States Army, I never would have imagined going into a state facility not having any discipline or structure at all. The officer in the building, the officer on the grounds, every time there’s a different officer, there’s a different set of rules.
Mansa Musa:
There’s a different set of rules, that’s right.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
Coming from the military, there’s one set of rules and everyone follows that set of rules.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah. Ain’t no consistency, ain’t no consistency.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
None. And then, if you take officers who have no rank at all and put them in positions of power, you take an officer and make that officer the VAC coordinator who’s over all the programming, if she doesn’t like you, you won’t be-
Christina Merryman:
You don’t [inaudible 00:19:41].
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
… participating in those classes.
Mansa Musa:
Your volunteer activity coordinator.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
Correct. You take another officer and you make them a case manager, and they don’t like you, but your case managers play a very large part in you being incarcerated. You take another staff member, off the ground, and make them the ARP coordinator. That’s a big problem.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah, yeah, administrative procedure.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
Ho I going to complain about you, or any of your friends, and you’re handling the paperwork?
Mansa Musa:
And you know what? And, as you outline that for the benefit of our audience, this is important that we understand that what we’re talking about here is equity and equality, because we’re not complaining about, okay, you have this narrative crime, crying, time, if you did the crime, do the time and stop crying, but this ain’t about none of that. This is about, if the Code of Maryland Regulation says … it doesn’t say, “This is what the Code of Maryland Regulation say.” Code of Maryland Regulation don’t say, “In women’s prison, women get three meals. In the men’s prison, men get four meals.” It don’t say, in the Code of Maryland Regulation, say, “In women’s prison, women get one hour of rec and men get all-day rec.” It’s a uniformity, to go back to your point, it’s a uniformity from Department of Public Safety and Corrections all the way down.
It’s a uniformity, but it’s only a uniformity when it comes to men’s prison. And so I want y’all to flush out this as we go forward. I want y’all flush this idea out, what impact does that have on your ability to maintain your sanity and get out? Because both of y’all got out. I’m not going to claim that I wasn’t damaged. First thing I got, when I got out, was mental health, because I understood that I needed to understand a lot that was going on, and I got good support in that work. But I understood this here that wasn’t nobody did four and a half years in that super-max. I did that on that, [inaudible 00:22:01] part around 12 people, and I knew it impacted me. I knew I had to get some type of help.
Let’s start with you, Christina, how did that impact you in terms of your ability to function and survive to the point where you was able to get out?
Christina Merryman:
I am a people person. I am a social butterfly. I was all over that compound. I love people. But I found myself, when I was away, I isolated a lot, because the surroundings around me, mostly officers, if I didn’t, they will try to pull you out of your character to see you fail, and knowing that I had to isolate more of who I was and shut down. Coming home, it was a little bit of a struggle because … first thing I did was mental health. I see a therapist. I’ve never done that before in my life, and my mom doesn’t understand it. She’s like, “You don’t need that.” I’m like, “But I do,” because it’s such a change now that I’m home and I’m able to be this social butterfly again and not have that worry of who’s there, is somebody there, that person in that black uniform going to try to get me out of my character? It is a little bit of a struggle, when I first came home, of being able to be my true self and not have that tension, and it shouldn’t be that way.
Mansa Musa:
No. And I’ve been in that space. I was in Islam. I did a whole murder, different thing, and I recognized that we had to, in order to get food during the Ramadan, in order to get the opportunity to fast and be able to break fast, it was a whole lot going with that. Matter of fact, Salaam versus Collins, a case that came out, Salaam versus Collins, where the Muslims sued to get a Islamic coordinator in the environment.
Black woman, Muslim and incarcerated, and like you say, I got your military background, so you got a certain discipline, but how was you able to maintain in being in that … and you also said, off camera, that you was a litigant, you was litigious, so you was a [inaudible 00:24:56] for the powers that be, which was a good thing. How was you able to maintain and be able to get out without finding yourself with an adjustment record that supersedes the amount of years you done?
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
Retaliation is real, believe that. I got one ticket, I got caught with a cellphone, because I was an advocate. So many things happened there that I tried to write up that could never get anywhere, that when they were passing a cellphone around, I got it. And when I had it, I was taking pictures of the maggots in the shower. I was taking pictures of all the goose poop that’s on the ground that we, as incarcerated individuals now, we know that outside people are coming because the grounds smell grapey. They have something to get rid of them when the time is necessary. Even if you do complain about something, before someone can come in, they will have fixed that, in addition to they’re not going to take you to the place exactly that we were speaking of. The staff members, some of the staff members, they clique up like the residents clique up. A couple of times, we were trying to figure out if they were members of specific groups.
Mansa Musa:
I understand.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
When you’re trying to get better, when you’re trying to do better, but you’re being agitated, it’s hard. I’m not saying … and please, I don’t want you to think for two seconds that I feel like I did the right thing or that I didn’t deserve to do time, but I didn’t deserve to do time like that.
Christina Merryman:
Yeah, I agree.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
I didn’t deserve that. I’m not exactly sure how things go, but I almost felt like MCIW had some type of protective shield because we couldn’t get the word out. My mail didn’t go out. My mail didn’t go out. I would get my mail back two months later, opened. You can’t get the information out. Even to hear you say that you complain about things and you’re able to make a change, we weren’t, are not, able to make those changes because we can’t get to anyone.
Mansa Musa:
Let me ask you this here. Going forward, what do you want to tell the women that are back … they’re still in the Women’s Cut. What do y’all want to tell them as we wrap this segment up about what it is y’all want them to leave them with in terms of motivating them in the spirit and get them to maintain? Christina?
Christina Merryman:
To try to do what I did, get involved in everything you can possibly get involved in. Stay busy. Stay connected with as many outside connections, support members, that you have. Stay positive. Keep a smile on your face, and kill every officer with as much kindness of spirit as you have. And do not, no matter what, let them rent the space in your head to take you out of your character, because they’re not worth it, and it will get better because there’s a date, you will have your date, your time will come, and it will get better. And you’ve got girls like us. You’ve got your advocates.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
Absolutely. For me, I want everybody to know that I love you guys.
Christina Merryman:
Yes.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
I was excited and sad to leave at the same time. I left my family, my children, my parents, my sisters, for 14 years. But when I left MCIW, I left a different family. I had a lot of support and I’m grateful for that. I want you ladies to know that there are a group of us that have been released and we are fighting on your behalf and we’re going to get the word out. They let out the right ones. [foreign language 00:29:41].
Mansa Musa:
That’s right, that’s right.
Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:
They let out the right group of ladies. We got you.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah. Okay. We Rattling the Bars. We got Ameena and Christina, recently released from the Women’s Cut, as we refer to it, and as we recognize from this conversation that it is in fact a notorious environment. But, like the phoenix, both of these young ladies, both of these ladies, has risen, and we are here to advocate on behalf of our sisters. We don’t leave nobody behind. There you have it. The Real News, Rattling the Bars.
Speaker 4:
Thank you so much for watching The Real News Network, where we lift up the voices, stories, and struggles that you care about most, and we need your help to keep doing this work. Please tap your screen now, subscribe, and donate to The Real News Network. Solidarity Forever.
]]></content:encoded>
<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312298</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>East Palestine residents demand fully-funded healthcare</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/east-palestine-residents-demand-fully-funded-healthcare</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Maximillian Alvarez]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Fri, 19 Apr 2024 19:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Working People]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[east palestine]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Economy]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312139</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="557" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?fit=1024%2C557&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="East Palestine resident and Ohio Nurses Association member Lauri Harmon speaks at the Justice for East Palestine Residents and Workers Coalition conference on March 23, 2024." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?w=1431&ssl=1 1431w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?resize=300%2C163&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?resize=1024%2C557&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?resize=768%2C418&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?resize=1200%2C652&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?resize=400%2C217&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?fit=1024%2C557&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>A new coalition of residents and workers in solidarity with East Palestine calls for fully-funded healthcare from the federal government for survivors of the train derailment catastrophe last year.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="557" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?fit=1024%2C557&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="East Palestine resident and Ohio Nurses Association member Lauri Harmon speaks at the Justice for East Palestine Residents and Workers Coalition conference on March 23, 2024." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?w=1431&ssl=1 1431w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?resize=300%2C163&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?resize=1024%2C557&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?resize=768%2C418&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?resize=1200%2C652&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?resize=400%2C217&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/eastpal.jpg?fit=1024%2C557&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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On March 23, 2024, a coalition of around 80 people convened at the East Palestine Country Club at the first gathering called by the newly formed Justice for East Palestine Residents & Workers Coalition. Those in attendance included: East Palestine residents; railroad workers; residents of other “sacrifice zones” in Ohio, Maryland, California, and West Virginia; concerned citizens living near other rail lines; labor activists and labor union representatives; representatives of environmental justice organizations; (striking) journalists; socialists, Trump voters, non-voters, etc.; and more. As journalist Steve Mellon reported, “The <a href="https://www.unionprogress.com/2024/03/19/coalition-of-residents-unionists-and-activists-coming-together-in-east-palestine-to-demand-health-care/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">newly formed coalition</a>, dubbed Justice for East Palestine Residents & Workers, determined they will travel to Washington, D.C., on Oct. 8 to further their demand that the federal government step in and make sure those affected by the derailment are provided with fully funded health care.”
In this extended episode, you will hear a compilation of speakers from the March 23 conference in East Palestine. Speakers include: Lauri Harmon, East Palestine resident; Chris Albright, East Palestine resident; Jami Rae Wallace, East Palestine resident, president of East Palestine Unity Council; Christina Siceloff, East Palestine resident; Rob Two-Hawks, East Palestine resident; Daren Gamble, East Palestine resident; John Palmer, longtime organizer and officer with the Teamsters, but not speaking on behalf of the Teamsters; Andrew Sandberg, International Association of Machinists IAM; George Waksmunski, United Electrical Workers UE; Chris Silvera, Teamsters Local 808 executive secretary; Steve Mellon, journalist for the Pittsburgh Union Progress, on strike at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette for 18 months; Vina Colley, Portsmouth-Piketon Residents for Environmental Safety & Security; Steve Zeltzer, WorkWeek; David Pfister, Food & Water Watch; Nicole Fabricant, activist, academic, and author of Fighting to Breathe: Race, Toxicity, and the Rise of Youth Activism in Baltimore; Hilary Flint, Clean Air Action; Penny Logsdon, Lee County, Iowa, Labor Chapter; Jeff Kurtz, Lee County, Iowa, Labor Chapter; Carrie Duncan, Lee County, Iowa, Labor Chapter; Maximillian Alvarez, The Real News Network; Mike Stout, musician.
Additional links/info below…
<ul>
<li><a href="https://www.justiceforeastpalestineresidentsandworkers.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Justice for East Palestine Residents & Workers</a> website</li>
<li>Mike Stout, “<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9knj1suDY0" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Stand Up for East Palestine</a>” music video</li>
<li>Steve Zeltzer, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@laborvideo" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">The Labor Video Project</a> YouTube channel</li>
<li>Steve Mellon, Pittsburgh Union Progress, “<a href="https://www.unionprogress.com/2024/03/24/stories-of-pain-from-east-palestine-move-coalition-members-to-action/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">‘If I don’t talk no one’s going to know’: Stories of pain from East Palestine move coalition members to action</a>“</li>
</ul>
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<ul>
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Featured Music…
<ul>
<li>Jules Taylor, “Working People” Theme Song</li>
<li>Jules Taylor, “TVLR Theme Song / Florence Reece Remix”</li>
</ul>
<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
Studio Production: Maximillian Alvarez Post-Production: Jules Taylor
</blockquote>
<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Maximillian Alvarez:
All right. Welcome everyone to another episode of Working People, a podcast about the lives, jobs, dreams, and struggles of the working class today. Brought to you in partnership within these Times Magazine and the Real News Network produced by Jules Taylor and made possible by the support of listeners like You Working People is a proud member of the Labor Radio Podcast network. If you’re hungry for more worker and labor focus shows like ours, follow the link in the show notes and go check out the other great shows in our network and please support the work that we are doing here at Working People because we can’t keep going without you guys. Share our episodes with your coworkers, your friends, your family members. Leave positive reviews of the show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and become a paid monthly subscriber on Patreon for just five bucks a month.
If you want to unlock all the great bonus episodes that we publish there for our patrons, and please support the work that we do at The Real News Network by going to the real news.com/donate. Especially if you want to see more reporting from the front lines of struggle around the US and across the world, your support really makes a difference. My name is Maximilian Alvarez and once again, I just want to apologize to our listeners for the recent disruption in our publishing schedule. Like I said on the last episode, I’ve been running around like a headless chicken the past couple weeks filming in East Palestine, covering the Keybridge collapse here in Baltimore, racing to get our mini documentaries from East Palestine ready to publish at the Real News, dealing with heavy family issues, racing to get all my work shit and essential tasks done before heading out to Chicago for the Labor Notes Conference and the Railroad Workers United Convention this week.
And yes to everyone who has been texting and DM-ing me, I am going to be in Chicago this week for both events and it’s going to kick ass. So I’m both really excited but also already very tired and stressed. I still got to pack and all that good stuff, but I cannot wait to be gathered with everyone there and to talk about where we go as a labor movement, and I won’t be alone. I will be there in Chicago and I will be bringing my podcasting equipment with me, and I will also be bringing a posse with me. I’ll have my real news colleague, Mel er. She and I are going to be there. Chris Albright from East Palestine’s going to be there and filmmaker Mike Benik, who’s been my collaboration partner on these East Palestine mini documentaries. So yeah, come say hi to us.
Come talk to me and Mel about stories, labor notes, baby, it’s going to kick ass. I’m excited to see everybody. And speaking of kicking ass, as you guys have heard me talk about already, I am just beyond overwhelmed and heartened and inspired by another gathering that I recently got to attend in East Palestine itself, a gathering that we helped make happen along with so many other amazing organizers and helpers who were part of the newly formed Justice for East Palestine Residents and Workers Coalition. One member of that coalition is Steve Mellon, a journalist who’s been on strike at the Pittsburgh Post Gazette for 18 months, and yet still during that time has done some of the best and most consistent coverage on East Palestine out of anyone in the country. And as Steve recently wrote in the Pittsburgh Union Progress, which by the way is the newspaper run by striking post Gazette workers, which everyone should support.
Lori Harmon stepped from the crowd, gathered in a community hall at the East Palestine Country Club around two 30 on Saturday afternoon and told her story to a hushed crowd of about 80 people. Many had traveled from as far as California and Texas to hear stories like hers and to offer their support. Lori 48, a retired registered nurse lives three blocks from the site of the February 3rd, 2023 toxic train derailment that many residents believe poisoned the town. On the 12th, I started getting rashes. She said her tone. Matter of fact, on May 1st about the time they started digging up a pit and cleaning up, I started getting second, third, and fourth degree chemical burns. I had burns over 80% of my body. She scheduled for heart surgery at Cleveland Clinic. She’s seeing seven doctors. Her medical bills total $500,000. She’s on Medicare and says she’ll have to pay 20% of that to avoid the rashes.
She quit going outside in September. I’m losing everything. I’m losing my home. I lost my relationship. I’m a foster parent. I lost my kids. This is more than one person can take Lori’s story and the stories of other East Palestine residents in attendance moved the crowd, which included organizers and members from a number of unions as well as several environmental activists, academics, and some people who simply wanted to offer help to a community. In crisis hours later, after a number of panel discussions and the performance of a song written about the East Palestine disaster by musician Mike Stout, they voted to take action. The newly formed coalition dubbed Justice for East Palestine Residents and Workers determined they will travel to Washington DC on October 8th to further their demand that the federal government step in and make sure those affected by the derailment are provided fully funded healthcare.
They plan to involve union members, including those who represent workers at railroad companies as well as environmentalists and members of other communities damaged by chemical contamination. And that demand for Biden to issue a disaster declaration for East Palestine and to use federal powers to get these residents immediate government funded healthcare is essential even with last week’s news that Norfolk Southern has agreed to pay out $600 million in a class action settlement. Now we’re going to talk about that settlement in more depth in the coming weeks, but as Josh Funk writes at the Associated Press quote, Norfolk Southern has agreed to pay $600 million in a class action lawsuit settlement for a fiery February, 2023 train derailment in Ohio. But residents worry, the money not only won’t go far enough to cover future health needs that could be tremendous, but also won’t amount to much once divvied up. It’s not nowhere near my needs, let alone what the health effects are going to be for five or 10 years down the road.
Said Eric Kza, who lived just three blocks from the derailment and had 47 family members living within a mile, Norfolk Southern said The agreement if approved by the court, will resolve all class action claims within a 20 mile radius of the derailment. And for residents who choose to participate personal injury claims within a 10 mile radius of the derailment, the settlement which doesn’t include or constitute any admission of liability wrongdoing or fault represents only a small slice of the $3 billion in revenue. Norfolk Southern generated just in the first three months of this year. The railroad said that even after the settlement, it still made a $213 million profit in that quarter. So like I said, we got a lot more to talk about regarding that settlement. But for right now, for today in this extended episode, I want to take y’all back to the conference that we held in East Palestine and you’re going to hear a compilation of speakers from that conference, and these recordings have been provided by the great Steve ER and the Labor Video Project.
Shout out to Steve, who is on the Justice for East Palestine Residents and Workers Organizing Committee, and was also integral to making this whole conference happen. Now, the speakers in this compilation include East Palestine residents themselves, union workers and union representatives, representatives and members from environmental groups and community organizations and more and beyond the speakers themselves. What you can’t hear is the fact that they were speaking to a room full of concern, citizens living near other rail lines or near other sites of industrial pollution, people from other sacrifice zones, delegations of folks from Baltimore, California, West Virginia, Iowa, and more people from all across the political spectrum. I mean, it was really something to witness you guys, and as best we can, we want to try to take you there with us with today’s episode, and even though the compilation in today’s episode only represents a portion of all that was said and discussed at this conference, it still is a longer episode and my introduction’s already gone long enough.
So I want to wrap things up and we’ll get right to the good stuff. But I just wanted to say by way of rounding out, I know that we’ve got a lot of work to do, but I saw firsthand in East Palestine last month the spark of the working class fightback that we need this coalition of capitalism’s, forgotten and abandoned communities just coming together and meeting each other, not as Trump or Biden voters or Democrats or Republicans or anything like that, but as fellow human beings and fellow workers all banding together to fight as one, to stop the corporate destruction of everything before it’s all too late. And I know that we are up against truly monstrously powerful forces, and those forces are currently doing incalculable damage us, our people, and our planet right now. But I also saw firsthand in East Palestine that the working class will not go quietly into this deregulated dystopia and that people are ready to fight back and that out of disaster and devastation when people find each other on that bare human terrain of the common struggle for life, family, health, justice, fairness, and just not being poisoned.
Then so many of the things that seemingly divide us today start to just melt away. So please don’t stop talking about East Palestine. Don’t stop fighting for each other and fighting for what’s right. Join us.
Lauri Harmon:
Hey, thank you for being here. I’m a retired rn, so I was in the Ohio Nurses Association Union. I live about three blocks from the train derailment. We were evacuated. Came back on about the 10th when they said it was all clear. On the 12th, I had a doctor’s appointment already scheduled. I started getting rashes. So fast forward, I don’t want to take up your time, but fast forward because I can talk for hours May 1st. This is about the time where they started digging up the pits, cleaning up. I started getting second, third, and fourth degree chemical burns. I have the burns. Over 80% of my body, they burrow deep down in it’s horrible. So of course, going to doctors trying to get figured out, nobody knows. No one can tell me. I was diagnosed with systemic contact dermatitis due to chemical exposure. I have now lesions in my spine. I have cysts on my kidneys. I have kidney stones in my kidneys. March 4th, I had a heart attack, had a septal infarc and there’s really nothing you could do. I probably should have killed me. I went into the hospital on the fourth with full body. My whole body was swollen,
So I was passing kidney stones. I figured that’s probably what the problem was. On the fifth, they treated me on the fourth, let me go home, took a bunch of labs on the fifth that night, didn’t feel good, knew something was going on. On the 6th of March, I got a phone call from the ER telling me to get back in here. We got problems. So I went back in and they explained to me what was going on. I have a blood infection now. I’m scheduled to have surgery, heart surgery on the fifth. There’s only one doctor that can do this type of surgery in the us so he’s flying into Cleveland Clinic to do this. I guess what I’m saying is I’ve had EPA at my house testing for my soil. They said it was contaminated with formaldehyde, but don’t worry, it’s just low levels. I have scarred on top of scar, on top of scar, on top of scar. The mental part has damaged me. I am not the only one in this town that has problems, and I know this, but there isn’t anybody out there that’s really medical wise what my doctors do, and I have seven of them. What they do is they roll things out.
I have the whole neurological community doing research on me. They can’t figure it out. I probably shouldn’t say this, but my one doctor called me and said, well, between me and you, I can’t really tell you that. I can’t put it in your medical chart. He says, but I can take the stand and say it was 100% due to chemical exposure. So I’m trying to get awareness out there. The last burn that I received was on September 27th, and that’s because I quit going outside. I still get rashes, not to the extent where it burrows down into my bones. Doctor dermatologist helped me put cream on it. That made it worse. So I had to become my own researcher, had to become my own scientist. I had to become everything that I’m not to figure out how to stop this, and what I’ve discovered was bleach. Bleach is the only thing that would stop these chemical burns from getting worse. It neutralized them. So it’s been a very tough road for everybody here in town. It’s been a tough road for everyone here in the us. I got a letter from Norfolk Southern saying, well, we know something happened to you, but
National transport, somebody needed to know all my medical information, so we need you to put your medical information on a disc and send it to us. I went down in Norfolk Southern, I have $500,000 of medical bills. I’m on Medicare. I have to pay 20% of that. They abused me. They mentally, emotionally. One guy told me that I will never see a check from them. I went down with a $12 bill asking $12 bill. They looked at my diagnosis, gave me the papers back and told me not to come back. I’m losing everything. I’m losing my home. I lost my relationship. I’m a foster parent. I lost my kids. This is more than then one person can take the, I just even know what to say. I want to thank you guys for coming here. This was like I wasn’t even going to come. I feel sometimes I’m defeated, but I can’t feel that way if I don’t talk. No one’s going to know. No one’s going to know, but I thank you very much and when we come together, there’s more things that get done. Because me doing this as one person, it is exhausting. Exhausting. Thank you.
Chris Albright:
I’m going to try to be brief. We got a lot of people want to speak and everything, but it was a catastrophe that happened that changed our lives and we’re never going to get back to normal. And we’ve had a lot of different circumstances that have happened to us that are completely out of our control. We didn’t want that train to Rome. We didn’t ask for that training, enrollment, and we cannot do anything about that right now without the help of everybody here and everybody across the country. It’s going to take all of us to get past this, to really let people know what happened and what we can do about it. Since the derailment happened, I was a gas pipeline worker. I developed congestive heart failure, which ended up spiraling into severe heart failure. I’ve been unable to work since April of last year. I’m unable to provide for my family. I have three girls. I’ve lost my health benefits in that time because I wasn’t working. I can’t afford my medications right now because of this, because of something that could have been prevented by the railroad, by Norfolk Southern. It could have been and should have been prevented. It should have never happened.
And one of the biggest takeaways about this is what happened here can happen to anybody out there. They have done nothing to fix the safety issues, the maintenance problems, anything like that. This can happen at anybody’s place, anywhere in this country right now. They won’t do anything about it until they hear from us. Once they hear from us and we start letting ’em know that we’re done. We’re not taking this anymore. We got to stand up. We got to unite. We got to get together, and we got to make this right, and we got to let them know that this is unacceptable. You are changing people’s lives for the worst and we can’t do it anymore, guys. We have to do better on this. So again, I really want to thank everybody here. It’s amazing. We still have the bus missing, like Steve said. So this whole process has been a whole bunch of speed bumps on the way here. The bus is just another one of those, but they’ll get here and we’ll be able to hear from some of those people. But I really, really truly want to thank everybody for being here. You guys, it means everything to us here, and I can’t thank you guys enough. So
Speaker 5:
Thank you.
Jami Rae Wallace:
I first just want to thank everybody for being here. Exactly what Chris said. You guys don’t know what this means to our community. We have felt completely abandoned here in East Palestine by so many people, including our government. Sometimes you start to think nobody cares. I refuse to believe that people would not care if they truly knew what was going on here. When you see little kids with unexplained nosebleeds, when you see little kids covered in rashes, asthma, I don’t believe that anybody could turn a blind eye to that. So we need to bring awareness. So thank you guys. My name is Jamie Wallace. I lived within the one mile zone. I have 47 immediate family members that live within that one mile zone. When Norfolk Southern and our government was going to lift the evacuation on East Palestine, my husband and I kind of had a little argument.
He said, what are we going to do when they lift the evacuation? I said, we’re going to go home if the EPA says it’s okay, it’s okay. I’m an educated woman to advanced degrees. I learned in school what the EPA does. They protect us. Well, I had to go home that Sunday to get prescriptions. If you ever get evacuated, make sure you grab your prescriptions. And as soon as I pulled in the driveway, sulfur run runs along my driveway, the most heavily contaminated creek. I pull in my driveway overtaken by a smell, a smell that I can’t even describe. I started coughing. My lungs were burning. My nose started to tingle. My mouth was tingling. I look over at the creek and I can just see chemicals free flowing down the creek. I didn’t need a scientist to tell me that things were not okay at my house.
My body told me enough, we threw a big enough fit. We got Norfolk Southern to bring down CTEH. Their testing company, the creek has two embankments on each side, so it goes from about four inches to four feet, a good rain. Again, you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure out when that water rises, it’s going into that soil. And my basement was about seven paces from that. He saw a small strip of moisture coming down my wall where the basement leaks. He said that that could puddle an off gas. The next day, Norfolk Southern called and offered to move us out. Just tell us what you need and we’ll replace everything. And I said, wait a minute. Let me think about what dollar amount do you put on your life. I couldn’t take pictures of my dad that just passed away two years ago.
What is that worth? And then I started thinking about all the other people in the community, all my family members, every person that I’ve ever grown up with, loved about, cared about. I knew there was no, they were just wrong about my house. The one big mouth redhead that’s stubborn. They weren’t just wrong about my house. So I told the whole community what happened that night. Not one single official ever called me back to see that video. At the very least. If you think I’m lying, watch the video so you can laugh and make fun of whatever I made up. No one has contacted me since then. I founded the Unity Council where we pulled together community members. You’re going to hear from a couple more of them here in a minute because I realized this fight was bigger than me. My union connection. I worked at Cleveland State for 15 years.
I was the executive board member, SEIU 1199, where’s my SEIU? And somebody asked me, did you have organizing experience before this? And I said, no. And they said, well, it’s funny you organize Unity Council, like a union. I was an organizer. I had five delegates when I took over as executive board member at SEIU, at CSU chapter. By the time I left, I had 34 delegates. So what I did is I divided them into executive committees. I got a couple people that worked in the nursing school to sit on a healthcare committee. A couple other people from the law school set on the grievance committee. So we had a unity council meeting once every couple months with all five union heads so that we could discuss those issues that overlapped. So in this East Palestine incident, I realized we are all fighting the same war, different battles.
So we now have an executive committee that’s just for union coordination and we have a lead. Darren at the end, he’ll tell you about that. We have Christina who heads up our media. She’s also a creek ranger, so she goes into the creeks. We have a political committee. We have a committee for human health issues. So we’ve all come together as a community because what we’ve realized, no one else is going to fight this fight for us. And this isn’t just a fight for East Palestine. This is a fight for all of the laborers across the country. We built this country with our blood, sweat and tears. Our ancestors built this country and now our country is in the hands of these corporations that have created a country that I don’t want to live in. I never thought pre derailment that I’d be a US citizen sitting here right now telling you that my mother is so sick that she has an unexplained huge open sore on her forehead that the dermatologist has never seen.
I’m here to tell you, my 18-year-old niece just turned 18 in October, just spent five days in the hospital. She started having unexplained seizures. My brother who’s here today, he has to have an MRI on the nodules on his lungs and a liver biopsy. My twin nieces that are 13 that had exposure, chemical, bronchitis, people are suffering. I just got a text message when I was standing outside from someone who said, Hey, my friend just came down with a really rare form of cancer. He spent a lot of time at our buddy’s house at ground zero. What should I do? I told him to join the study and to make a short video clip for a story that we’re doing for a national news station. People were calling me, asking me, where do I find water? Where do I find food? My child has blood coming out of its ears.
Where do I take them? I’m just like you guys, I’m just an everyday person. I’m a house mother. I’m fighting for my child. When I say I’ll fight to the death of my child, I’ll fight the government, but I can’t do it alone. East Palestine can’t do it alone. And this impacts every single one of you. They come into these communities, these corporate polluters, who do they hire? Who were the guys that went in and tore out asbestos with no PPE? The railroad workers. They got sick and we had to call into osha. My 31-year-old niece’s husband just died of liver cancer at 31. When I read his obituary, he’s worked at a plastic company since he’s been 18. This is not just East Palestine’s issue. It’s an issue all over the country. And like Chris said, the Chris Albright said, this could happen anywhere.
Think about your proximity to a railroad track. One of our Unity council members is from Cleveland. She was watching an interview with one of us, with our kid. She’s sitting there with her 4-year-old daughter listening to a train go by. So please open your eyes to the dangers around you. Realize that we are the only ones. We let this country get so far gone. We are the only ones that are going to be able to take this country back and we need national action. But I thank you guys for being here. We appreciate the support more than any of you guys could imagine in solidarity.
Christina Siceloff:
So I wanted to talk a little bit about what my symptoms have been over last year and because a lot of the people in our area, and it’s not just East Palestine, but all over our area here, I’ve talked to a lot of people and they’re having the same issues as I’m having. So, oh, my name is Christina Selo and where you’re from and we’ll get there. Okay, so I’ve had pressure in my ears. Itchy skin, migraines, headaches, brain fog, dizziness, confusion, tiredness, low grade fever, congestion, runny nose burning in my nose, eyes and throat. Strange smells, strange tastes, polyps in my nose, pain around my eyes, itchy eyes, extra mucus sore and blistered. Throat hoarseness, a feeling in my esophagus and lungs, throat, nose, and abdomen like someone was burning me with acid and lighting me on fire from the inside. Coughing, sore lungs, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea sometimes at the same time.
Body aches, excessive thirst. Loss of appetite at times. Stomach pain, abnormal menstruation, cramping and tingling in my feet. Twitches, tremors, anxiety and panic attacks. These are most of the symptoms I can recall. I’ve had these since the train derailment and the vent and burn that happened last year. Since then, I’ve been diagnosed with an ear infection, an upper respiratory infection, exposure to toxins that were non-occupational and even had one doctor tell me they didn’t know what to do for us yet, including for my 4-year-old son. I’ve had blood tests and urine tests only to be told everything was fine. In January, I was diagnosed with PTSD. One of the most recent doctor visits was to have a screening done for cancer that came back as benign, but they wanted to continue monitoring every three months, but the insurance won’t pay for that. So we go to every six months I’d been put on antibiotics and a steroid and nasal spray.
At the beginning that didn’t do much. Now I’m on two inhalers, allergy medicine and two anxiety medications. Prior to the derailment and vent burn, I had not been to the doctor since I had my son in 2019. And prior to that, I had not been to my doctor since 2016. I barely would take headache medicines even for a migraine, and I was not a immune compromised person and hardly ever got the flu. I go through symptoms and talk about my prior record for going to the doctor because I wanted people to see the differences between then and now. I’m a resident of South Beaver Township. I live six miles from where the train derailed. Not many people talk about their symptoms after the derailment where I live, but our neighbors are farther spread apart too. We did talk to neighbors after their derailment only to find that they too had had similar symptoms and some have a bit different lasting for different periods of time.
Some do not speak out. Some are afraid to speak out and some simply don’t just have the time to. We need to have medical monitoring and medical care for now and in the future for ourselves and our children and at least their children. Our doctors still don’t know what to tell us. Studies have not been done on humans, at least for multiple chemical exposure and even less on that exposure and low ranges a year later, we still don’t know what was or still remains in our environment and in our homes that could be affecting us because the science just isn’t there yet. Monitoring and screening instruments cannot detect low enough levels of some of the chemicals we have been exposed to, and we still don’t know if there are any new chemicals that we don’t know about that were created to know those effects on human beings.
We had been told last year by the CDC that we were all exposed, but even though even they don’t know what to do about what is or could be in our body but know how to treat the cancers that it could cause later, this to me is not acceptable. Even if they could treat this cancer, that’s more chemicals that we should have never had to be exposed to. And some people don’t respond to treatments. Some people don’t survive the treatments. And why do we have to wait for answers until it could be too late? Many people in our communities do not have health insurance and don’t have money to pay for prescriptions they need now for their symptoms that they experience now they surely don’t have money for cancer. There may be some who do have insurance, but they may still not have the extra money to pay for what insurance doesn’t cover.
Many have lost their jobs since the derailment because of their symptoms and cannot afford medical care even if they do have insurance that would pay for anything you need. Why should your insurance company have to pay for a bill for the negligence done by Norfolk Southern that caused our illnesses? The government should not be let off the hook either. They had the funding to do more research on the chemicals before they even put them on the tracks. They had the power to not lift the evacuation. And some of us were never even told to leave or to stay inside. There should have been more done to protect people. And even to this day, they have done next to nothing to make changes or even monitor the changes that were made. Norfolk Southern has not kept their promise to the whole community to make it right.
You cannot put a price on human life. What you can do to start to make things right is to make sure that this does not happen to another community. By implementing better safety measures, regardless of how much they cost you, you can set up programs to help people with their medical needs now and in the future instead of acting as though there is nothing wrong here, when clearly there is, you can start telling the truth. We did not ask for this disaster to happen. What would they want for their loved ones if this had happened to them? Again, we didn’t ask for this to happen to us.
Rob Two-Hawks:
My name is Rob Hawks. It’s not my family name, but that is my Native American acquired name from going through Allen back to get It, which I did years ago to deal with my own complex BTSD, which I suffered from decades. So we went through many wars, it was never in the military, but that has triggered a little bit of all that. You think you’re done and you think you’ve finished it all and another trauma comes down the highway. And this whole community knowingly or not is there whether they’re having health symptoms or not, they’re there, but time will tell.
About two or three weeks ago, I came home from the East Palestine clinic and I think I’ve been there maybe six or seven visits now. Looked like a good thing and I still think it has some value, although it’s not really been that helpful. We’ve not been able to get the toxicity testing we’ve needed and they’ve had to farm people out to specialists that didn’t know what to do either. But that’s part of the story here later. And all those six or seven visits, I only saw one other person sitting in the lobby and that was disheartening. And at the same time I thought, what the hell is going on here? And so a lot of people didn’t avail themselves of the services because they had kind of caught wind that they weren’t going to get the testing they needed and so on and so forth.
But anyhow, about a month ago I walked out of there smiling because I finally got something that I wanted. I got a do not resuscitate sticker to put on my refrigerator, and that was quite satisfying because I’ve been through enough and I’m not going there. I’ve been there for years and years. I have a number of really weird health issues. I have an incredibly rare form of heart failure. It’s very advanced. So I appreciate our friend here and what he’s dealing with. Mine’s quite well developed. Far along it is mitochondrial or metabolic rather than vascular, which means the problem is in the tissue of the heart itself. That’s going to mean something to everybody here that’s exposed because toxins impact mitochondria. And depending upon your genetic profile and where you sat geographically and your past history and your present health, it can shoot off in a bunch of different ways.
But you’re going to have to learn a little more about metabolic and mitochondrial medicine. I like to say a couple things about that because I’ve been here for maybe 15 years, traveling down, having to be my own armchair physician because nobody could handle my situation 15 years ago. And a lot of people are going to be traveling a very similar road here. So it helps to know, while I couldn’t diagnose or get official about all the unique individual symptoms, a lot of you’re going to travel down similar roads, but I’ve traveled down. Hopefully I can save you a few steps and in the next few years on the upside, while most of our allopathic, conventional physicians and even specialists are not quite prepared to deal with chronic illnesses, period, let alone environmental illnesses as per NASA a month or so ago said that all of the doctors in a row, including the er, including the specialists, are not trained in environmental medicine.
The good news is we have something called the Mitochondrial Medical Center at one of the finest universities in the state of Ohio. What university, excuse me, hospital, Cleveland Clinic. And we also have what is called integrative, the very first functional medical center in the United States. There are others now. It’s also the same wonderful hospital. So this is the future. You can learn a lot yourself. There’s plenty online. It’s the future and it’s coming to meet us as a rule. Whatever trickles down from the halls of academic medical knowledge and laboratories takes a decade or more even if they have the cure today, that is all hastening right now and that’s in our favor. And so we’re going to need to get a grip on that because we’re not going to treat, again, I’m not saying everybody that has been exposed and everybody that’s symptomatic is going to have this symptom or that illness or that chronic disease. No way in knowing that some people will have mild forms, some people will have the already existing health and no preexisting conditions, and they’re going to come through this without something else going on. Some people aren’t. So we’re going to need to look at that.
What else can I say about that? You have any idea? No, that’s good. Is that good? I’d like to make an analogy here though. It’s a real simple one. What we do, this is a good analogy and I’ve used it a few times here. We have a fish in aquarium. A lot of people here I’m sure have fish tanks. At any rate, what our present model does is it treats the fish and it doesn’t adjust the pH or clean the aquarium. And that’s exactly where we’re sitting with toxic disasters and illnesses. So that tells you basically what you got to do. You got to treat fish, and that means detoxification is going to be incredibly important in building immunity. And that is the future of healthcare related to the people in East Palestine and the surrounding area. So
Daren Gamble:
My name’s Darren Gamble and I’m from East Palestine. I live about a half a mile from the derailment. And in the house that I’ve lived six generations of my family’s lived in, I’ve lived in for 60 years. And just recently this last week, we’ve made the realization that we’re going to have to sell our home and move. I mean, when the derailment happened, we did relocate for 10 months while they was digging up the contaminated soil and things were really bad in town. So after it was all cleaned up again, we get the okay to go home. And in a matter of days after returning home, my wife was extremely sick again. And it’s just we have enough air monitors our house to probably clean the Cleveland Clinic. I mean like four or five on every level and most every night they’re all bright red. So there is still there. It’s not going anywhere. But I come down here today because I’m a retired member from bricklayers Local eight in Youngstown, Ohio, 35 years service. And for all the union brothers and sisters are here for solidarity for us.
I mean to the point now that we’ve been screaming this to anybody will listen for every year, and the sad part of it is that nobody will do anything. Nobody will help us. It’s just like we’re forgotten. And to me, it’s unbelievable. It is criminal. There’s no doubt in my mind that what’s going on here is criminal. And to me, I say it’s kind of like covid. Never know the whole story, just what we’re told. And I don’t know how, obviously steps like this are very important to get this ball rolling, to bring awareness not only to us, but the other thousands of communities in the country that are being poisoned. It is just so eye opening. Like I said, I’ve lived here my whole life before this happened. There was no such thing as environmentalist to me. I mean that all happened somewhere else. These things happen somewhere else like mass shootings, what have you. But this time it did happen to us. And the consequences that it’s causing is just mind blowing. And the fact that nobody will help us is even more just unbelievable. So I appreciate especially all the union people are here today trying to stand in solid area with us and appreciate guys all for coming and God willing in the creek toe rise. We’re going to get through this, but I don’t know how. Thanks a lot.
John Palmer:
Thank you everybody. I’m John Palmer. I live in just north of San Antonio in Texas, lifelong teamster. When I brought this up at our executive board, I was told that I could come here as an individual, but I can’t represent the Teamsters Union. So that brings me to sort of the theme of what I’d like to say. When I got here, Chris mentioned
The roadblocks, speed bumps and obstacles that he encountered trying to put the meeting together. And we’ve all done this. When we try to do something, there’s always something that comes up unexpected. I think the thing that I’m most driven about now is that, and optimistic and also disappointed in is that I think we’ve all grown up. I’m 65 years old to believe that institutions were set in place to save us or protect us from the ills that affect us all. I spent most of my life very close to a train track on the east side of San Antonio. So this could be me, this could have been my kids, this could have been anybody. But we have to understand that the corporate dominance in this country now has removed all those protections and that as a country, as a people, this isn’t about union. We’re all working men and women, we’re all middle class. The only way we’re going to save our country frankly, is not by electing somebody, but it is by standing together. And
We’ve got to push back collectively the powers that be have to Harris. And I think I am excited that all these people, I came here not on behalf of the Teamsters, but I came here because I’m a human being and I care about people. And at the end of the day, we have to force those institutions to do the right thing. And I think lifelong bleed union. But I think we need to push our unions and I think that’s where we start. And anyway, I’m just touched and my heart bleeds. It’s easy to speak these words when you’re not affected. I’m losing my mother right now. She’s in hospice, Parkinson’s, but God blessed her with a full life. And I pain for you guys when I hear the stories and I know that I just heard a few of them. So I’ll do everything I can to help you as a group. Thank you.
Andrew Sandberg:
Hello everyone. My name is Andrew Sandberg. I’m the president of the IAM Machinist Union that represents machinists on the railroads across the United States. We represent the mechanics that work on the locomotives. We have been actively telling Congress and everybody that would listen that something like this was going to happen. And we are here to stand in solidarity with the people of East Palestine and the other labor unions to see what we could do to help. Thank you.
Speaker 12:
Can you talk about what’s happened?
Andrew Sandberg:
So you would think it has gotten as bad as it could be, but after having derailments similar to this, sometimes twice a week, the railroads still think that they should cut workers away from the work that they do to prevent things like this from happening. It’s not just, but we work in the shops. We work on the trains and parts of trains. We work on locomotives, but our brothers work on the tracks. And you could see that there have been track failures that have been causing derailments and deaths. Really, this is the worst thing that has happened in the United States in a very long time. What happened here, and again, we’ve tried and tried and tried to caution over this, but my brother had said that the corporate greed is really what has taken over here. They cannot make enough money. So they’re starting to, in the last five years, they’ve probably furloughed about two to 3000 of just machinists that work on the railroads across the class one railroads, Norfolk Southern C-S-X-B-N-S-F, and the up.
And it never seems to be enough. They just keep cutting and cutting away from their maintenance that they used to do. And like I said, this is a result. Things of what happened here are the result of the lack of maintenance that the railroads refuse to do. They refuse to do the required maintenance and therefore this is what we end up with. Not only that, but they would rather assign workers that aren’t trained to do the work of inspecting locomotives and they’d rather have them look at locomotives so that they can miss what we call FRA defects. And we’ve made a mountain of information to give to the FRA and explain to the F-R-A-F-R-A is the Federal Railroad Administration. They’re a part of the Department of Transportation. Nothing has really changed. You can see we put together some signs. The Rail Safety Act is something that we believe can help with this situation of putting trains that are going to explode eventually on the tracks and prevent them from being used and make sure that they are being repaired beforehand. Thank you.
George Waksmunski:
Good afternoon. Let me first say I’m honored to be here and humble to be here. It’s a devastating and heartbreaking to listen to the stories of the local community members. My name is George Waksmunski. I’m the president of the United Electrical Radio Machine Workers of America, the eastern region, I should say National president ain’t going to like that. I cover 14 states from North Carolina, West Virginia, and pretty much everything up through New England. My hometown is Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Born and raised there. A little bit about my union, the ue, it’s a member run union. We’re formed in 1936. Our constitution says that nobody on staff can make any more money than the highest paid worker we represent. We’re pretty proud of that.
I’ve been on staff for about 30 some years. I got some pretty soft hands, but I’m not afraid to work. I just put a roof on and I remembered what a callous is, so I’m suffering. But we represent workers in the rail industry or rail related industry. Our members work at companies primarily called Halcon, and these are van drivers who transport the railroad workers from the train to the hotel or from the train back to their, these folks suffer a lot of illnesses due to the pollution in the air that they have to breathe by being around locomotives. We also represent WebTech workers up in Erie, Pennsylvania where they make the locomotives on behalf of tens of thousands of Youi members across this country. We oppose our tax dollars going for war, greed, profit, and we support tax dollars going to the working class for healthcare, education, environment, retirement, et cetera.
We believe in rank and file militant, aggressive struggle. And when this is brought to my attention a few weeks ago, and I’m very grateful that it was brought to my attention, I took a resolution that’s being proposed to support the residents of East Palestine and the workers around the community to my eastern region. And we unanimously endorsed that resolution and endorsed your struggle here. My father was a railroad worker. He worked out a railroad Conway Yard. He worked for Pennsylvania Railroad, Penn Central Amtrak, and maybe a couple others, I don’t know. But back then as a child, I remember him getting the phone call. He had to go to work. He lived by that phone. He couldn’t leave the phone because if you missed that call, you lost out on a day’s pay. You didn’t know when that call was going to come back. It might be a couple of days.
Anyhow, I remember him getting those calls and being called for being an engineer on the train or a fireman or a brakeman or a conductor or a guy in a caboose. And I don’t know what they call that guy, but I don’t even know if anybody knows what a caboose is anymore because again, they’re down to two people on a train. I recently read the financial report for ns, and they refer to this tragedy, this devastation as an incident, the Eastern Ohio incident, and how they had to pay out so much money for this and it offset their profits for that. And billions of dollars in profit they made. And they refer to it as an incident that this is all you are to them is an incident. And that this is all we are as human beings. It’s just an incident. Basically roadkill on the train to profit and greed.
There’s a song out there and I, I’m a Bruce Springsteen freak, so sorry about that. But it’s called Death to My Hometown. And as I was preparing for today, I listened to that song and it just really hits home for what you guys are dealing with. It’s something else a you can identify with. The people here have lost their jobs. They’ve lost their businesses. They’ve lost their healthcare, their health, their homes, their neighborhoods, their future, the joy of having a community, your life, your identity. You’ve lost friends and families due to death, disease, illness. And it’s as if you’ve been stripped or skinned of everything that you know as the world around you that you grew up with your community. And so where are the lobbyists for the people of East Palestine? And where are the lobbyists for even the businesses, the Chamber of Commerce around here, but it’s a little itty bitty chamber of commerce, so they don’t have a voice either. And where are the lobbyists for us, the people of East Palestine? Well, they say you have congressmen and you have senators and they’re supposed to represent you. Well, we know that’s a joke because who owns them? NS owns them,
The capitalists and Wall Street owns them. We have 1500 derailments a year, 1500 potential disasters a year in Pittsburgh. I can tell you about around 1994, there was a derailment just about a half mile from my house. Fortunately, did not have suffered a disaster, but had it been similar to what you folks have gone through, there would’ve been thousands of people killed, probably and tens of thousands suffering, which are suffering. God forbid it didn’t happen then. But I was there. I remember ’em talking about us evacuating, but we didn’t have to. Our railroads need to be nationalized.
Our communities need protected. Our workers need protected. We need a coalition of labor, environment, social justice, religious and every other organization out there because as the brothers have said, and you said, we can’t do this alone. We all have to come together. We know that the problem is in this country and the country’s bought and sold. The people who are in government are bought and sold for the most part. We have some good representatives. And yes, they’re hard to find, I know, but there’s a few out there who have our interests. But there’s so few. We need a movement, a rank of foul, militant movement of aggressive struggle. It’s going to join a coalition and fight back. We need more workers on the train. We need an upgrade to the car by car braking system. We need less cars on the train. We need green locomotives to cut down on all the pollution and trillions of carbon emissions and carcinogens that come out that are poisoning every community, every day of the week and every year.
I mean, the devastation is brought here is about greed. Capitalism promotes greed. Look at the East Palestine and you see the effects of capitalism and greed and profit and devastation in its wake. You can see it in every city, state and small town. The homeless, the drug addicted, the poverty stricken. This is America and this is unchecked capitalism. And the only way we change this, or at least have any check on it, is when workers unite, we’re all workers. 99% of everybody in this country works for somebody. We’re getting filthy rich off our back. And so the only way we can change this is when we all unite and stop letting ourselves be divided by race, color, creed, sexual orientation, age. I hear so many older folks talking about this younger generation and they ain’t no good. I’m like, don’t you remember when you were the younger generation? We weren’t no good either. We had long hair, we had tattoos, we had piercings, and oh my God, the world was going to end. These kids are lazy. So I believe in our next generation, I see a lot of young people, they’re there. All you got to do is look, you don’t have to. You quit listening to the radio and the TV telling you everything’s bad in the world. We got a lot of good things going on if we come together.
So we have no faith in the Republicans or Democrats, but we need national healthcare. We need a nationalized rail system. We need President Biden to enact the Stafford Act as a first step to restoring and making hold of people of Vegas Palestine. And it’s just so glad to be here and look out and see you all and know that so many different groups are represented and people care. And this is my first time here, and it is been very moving for me. And I want you to know the ue, the United Electrical Radio Machine Workers of America stand in solidarity with you. We will continue to put out your information and promote your cause in any way that we can. So I’ve taken a bit of time, but thank you very much.
Chris Silvera:
I got a text or email about a golf course and I came to play golf and run up in a bunch of communists and lefties and whatnot. I just want the FBI to know I’m here by accident. I didn’t even know that there was a East Palestine until the derailment. How many people here from East Palestine,
Speaker 15:
Biden can’t even say East Palestine, called East Palestine. So thank you.
Chris Silvera:
I’d have called you East Palestine myself, but I heard East Palestine often enough to try to get it correct. But what’s happening here, I might offend some people. I’m glad. My brother’s here from the teamsters, from the machinists, Youi. My name is Christopher. I bring solidarity greetings from Teamsters, local aid away in Long Island City, New York, and we stand in solidarity with the struggles of all working people. But I’ll tell you that if I gave you somebody that was running for Congress who stood for all the issues that you want, Medicaid, Medicare, socialized medicine, nationalize, the railroads and what have you, you wouldn’t vote for ’em,
Speaker 15:
Right?
Speaker 16:
Amen.
Chris Silvera:
You vote against your own interest. Yes, time and time and time again, you vote for lawyers instead of truck drivers. You vote for lawyers instead of plumbers, you vote for lawyers instead of nurses. So what you want in your head, you don’t want in reality, because you want actually to join the ruling class. I just played my lottery, so you know where I want. But if we want to change things, then we have to create that change. It ain’t going to be the Democrats and it ain’t going to be the Republicans. You’re going to have to build a party for working people funded by you, your $5, your $10. Because if you think, and I was just looking at something as I was coming here this weekend, totally unrelated, but all these organic things you buy in the supermarket, they’ve all been bought up by the massive corporations. If you want to make money, buy stock in the railroad. It is the single most profitable business in America. Not oil, not automobile, nothing else. Railroads. You change it when you decide to vote for something else. And don’t worry about some third guy running for president. You have to start at the town council, at the city council, at the school board.
When they see that change coming up the hill, then they will understand that you have changed. And that’s going to make the society change. It ain’t some kind of magical thing we’re going to run. Because if I became the president of the mark tomorrow and the Congress was all Democrats and Republicans that couldn’t get anything done, and we could witness that right now. So we have to build from the bottom to the top. But we can make it change. But we have to invest in it. So we have to stop listening to M-S-N-B-C and Fox and Friends and CNN pick up a book. A what? Kindle. Kindle. Kindle. Some printed product. But don’t just read one kind. Read many kinds and don’t just read it and absorb it after you finish reading it. Look out the window and what they described look like what you’re seeing. Because none of this changes overnight, but it’s doable. And our unions fail because we have the resources to be an accelerant. And we fail. We ostracize my brother Palmer, because we don’t even dissent in the union organization that was created around dissent with capitalists. So we have work to do.
And when I get another text about coming to the golf course, I’ll be here. I’ll leave my clubs home the next time, but I’ll be here. But we have work to do. We can do it. I felt your pain today. I didn’t know any of the people here, but I felt that pain and I knew it had happened. And there’s one thing to read in the newspaper is another thing to see and meet the people who it happened to and hear their stories. And I appreciate your stories. And those stories need to be on tv. They don’t need to be on YouTube. They need to be on CNN and Fox and M-S-N-B-C, so the world can hear your stories and understand what happened here, working on it. Hey, well I tell you, me what you need, and if I can help out, I’m there with you. But we need to understand this because this should not happen anywhere. Listen, accidents are going to happen, but at least when they happen, our government and these corporations should be on the hook instantly instantaneously. It shouldn’t be a debate, it shouldn’t be a question. So going to leave you with this power to the people and to the people belong. The power
Jeff Kurtz:
I had like to start off thanking the hosts of this event, the residents of East Palestine. I love doing this kind of stuff because of the fact that you meet such nice people. I mean, you meet people that are different than but are a different nice than you, and it is just really a lot of fun for me and thank you for letting us come into your community and help you right some of the wrongs that have been done to you. There’s not that much of a difference between East Palestine and a small town in Iowa that we come from. I’ve lived most of my life back in Fort Madison, Iowa. In fact, back in November of 2021, we had a derailment on the Mississippi River about 10 miles south of us in an even smaller town called Montrose, Iowa. I think it’s got 1,015 hundred residents, something like that.
And it was caused, if you can believe it, by a trained barge collision. Anybody that has any questions about that, I’ll explain that later. But we were very lucky because that train was a cold train and didn’t have hazardous materials. So the contents that went into the river were relatively easy to clean up, but that derailment could have been much worse because hazardous materials do run on that line. As with the derailment here, the whole problem was pretty complex, but the major parts of that problem are pretty easy to take care of quickly. So with the help of our sheriff back home and a couple of union brothers, we got the information on the derailment and we took our case to the capitol in Des Moines where we met with the transportation committee’s representatives from the house and Senate side. So working together, we composed a letter and I’ve got that here if anybody wants to see it, and we use that as a basis for a solution to a problem.
And believe it or not, this train barge stuff had been plaguing us for 14 years. So we made everything work because of cooperation from everybody involved and the desire to protect people living along the right of way and the desire to ensure that something like that would never happen again. So I thought about this when we did look back in relation to the problems that we’re facing. Now, the issues with the situation are more numerous here because of the severity of the derailment and the nature of the spill, but the methods needed to come to a solution is pretty much essentially the same. The problem as a whole is pretty complex, but the major parts of it are pretty simple to handle. I mean, we handle those and then we can take our time with the other parts of that problem. Right now for the safety and wellbeing of the community, because of what you’ve been exposed to, healthcare should be the number one priority so that any ill effects to your health from what you’ve been exposed to can be headed off before they become too serious. There are several different mechanisms to do that. On the federal level, we’ve got legislation that can be utilized to get you healthcare that nobody’s doing anything about. On the state level, there are two states right now, Connecticut and Arizona that are trying to wipe out medical debt for their constituents. Now, if those states can afford to do something that is as expensive as wiping out medical debt for the whole state, then the state of Ohio can provide healthcare for the citizens of East Palestine,
Especially after this catastrophe when they can eventually recover the costs from the Norfolk Southern. In the rail industry, we refer to the NS as the Nazi Southern. So that gives you a clue to what people think of them. Okay, now there are those with a different agenda than ours that are going to try to make everything complicated and throw in all kinds of other issues. So it looks like things are much more difficult to do than they really are. And by God they’re fighting hard for you against the other side and the other side’s fighting hard for you against that side, and it just goes back and forth. But if you listen to these people, they’re saying the same thing. They’re just saying it in a different tone. You’ve got to listen to what they say and not how they say it. So that’s where the people of this conference comes in.
There are enough of us on all sides of the political spectrum to hold everyone accountable. We can hold the state and we can hold the federal people accountable and get some things done like healthcare for you guys. If the people that would normally be aligned with us try to blame the other side, then we need to let them know that there are things that they could do if they were sufficiently motivated to do so, that the pain and suffering people are going through right now wouldn’t be nearly as bad as it is. I recently contacted my friend Nikki because one thing I’ve learned throughout my life is I don’t have to be the smartest person in the room, but I better know where and who the smartest people are. And Nikki’s always going to be one of the smartest people.
No, I’m just kidding. No. She directed me towards some materials dealing with how we can cooperate with people and accomplish goals. I’m convinced that if we put aside differences and work toward common goals, the most important at this time would be healthcare for East Palestine, that we can accomplish those goals. As one of my former bosses used to tell me, and you got to imagine this in a Boston accent because he was from Boston Kurtz, if nothing else, get a bite of the apple and quit crying to swallow it. Whole healthcare for the residents is that first bite of the apple. Thank you for inviting us and let’s not hear any more flowery speeches or pretty words. Let’s get our hands dirty and do the work and get that stuff done.
Steve Zeltzer:
Hey, this is Steve Zeltzer. We’re in East Palestine and we’re at a meeting to discuss the defense of the people of East Palestinian, the workers of East Palestine more than a year after a railroad wreck by Norfolk Southern. And we have two labor people, two working people who are going to be talking about why they’re here at the
Steve Mellon:
Conference. I’m Steve Mellon. I’m a striking worker at the Pittsburgh Post Gazette newspaper.
John Palmer:
I’m John Palmer. I’m a longtime teamster and international vice president. Steve,
Steve Zeltzer:
You’ve been covering this struggle here in East Palestine. This is the first national meeting here in East Palestine. What has been going on and why has there been so little coverage really of the issues for the workers and people of East Palestine who are losing their healthcare and still fighting to survive?
Steve Mellon:
Well, I think there was a lot of coverage here right after the derailment, and I’ve seen that happen over and over and over again. There’s this moment of crisis in a community and all the big networks come into town, CNN, Fox News, all those folks, they come into town and they cover that moment and then they move on. Becauses always another crisis there. There’s, there’s a mass shooting someplace or there’s another derailment or there’s a big political story. And so the national attention moves on and life moves on the East. Palestine looks normal because the truth is Norfolk Southern had that train running within a couple of days after that big, I mean, we all saw a national TV, that big mushroom cloud three days after the derailment when they burned off 2 million gallons of vinyl chloride, they sent that massive toxic cloud over the city.
And so you went there a week later, two weeks later, and the trains are running through again and it looks like everything’s normal. Well, of course for the people, it’s not normal because they still have to go to bed every night wondering whether the toxins that hovered over their town during that toxic burnoff were still in their pillows, were still in the water that they drank, the food that they were when their kids went out to play in the yard. Am I poisoning my kid? They still had to live with that, but of course the media and the national attention, we all moved on. They could not move on. They had to continue to struggle through this. We’ve been on strike for now 17 months, and we were kind of free of the necessity of feeding the beast a newspaper beast. Like if I went out on an assignment, I had to come back with a story because the newspaper needed stories.
We have a strike paper now, but we’re the bosses working. People are the bosses. We can publish stories the way we think they need to be published. We can report them the way they need to be reported. That has allowed us as journalists, a handful of us that are working on the strike paper to come up here, spend time with people, develop the relationships with these people in East Palestine who are going through this. So they don’t look at me and say, this is a guy that’s just going to come in and take my story and go and do what he wants with it. They know I’m going to be back next week and the week after next and the week after next, and if I screw the story up, they’re going to tell me about it. If I miss something or get something wrong, they’re going to tell me about it.
Steve Zeltzer:
And having real journalism to get these stories, it’s a battle. It’s a battle as you say. I mean, one of the issues is the destruction of newspaper jobs by these all this global capital closing newspapers around the country laying off journalists, and you wonder why you can’t get information from the ground floor.
John Palmer:
So I want to echo his sentiment. I think that so many people have been forgotten and our attention drifts away from real important issues. If any one of us had a family member that was affected by this would be screaming from the mountaintop, the fact that the institutions like the institution that I belong to kind of ignore this. I brought this up in a meeting to our executive board and was told that as I couldn’t come here as a member of the general executive board. So I’m coming here as a human being who cares about people who put myself in the shoes of a mother that might be losing a child or a father who’s the only working person that bringing income into a house or a mother that’s the only working person. All of a sudden their life is completely turned upside down and everybody’s left. I mean, Biden comes out here and makes an appearance, but every single day they get up. They’re living in this situation, they can’t sell their homes. If they were to sell their homes, where are they going to go? What is your house worth? How does that translate to another place? How do you find another job? These people just need some help. The reason I’m here is to help them scream from the mountaintop. I hope this catches fire. And people understand how critical this is to the wellbeing of our fellow Americans. This is tragic
Steve Zeltzer:
And it is like the wild, wild west because I mean there’s still more trained derailments even after this thing, and they’re still talking about legislation and also this mass casualty incident site under the Stafford Act. They could pass it so they could get healthcare for their ailments and also get their homes purchased. It happened at Love Canal, but it seems like it’s pulling teeth not only just to get the government to do it, but get our unions to say, stand up. Stand up for these people.
Steve Mellon:
And there’s a lot of talk about that real bill. Where’s it at now? It’s hung up in Congress. I mean, it’s probably even though has majority supports, probably not going to get a vote in the house. It probably won’t be able to overcome a filibuster in the Senate. So it’s interesting that this is about healthcare. We’re here demanding healthcare for the people of East Palestine, the people affected by this derailment because healthcare triggered our strike. The Post Gazette company stripped the healthcare away from members of four of our five unions. They went out on strike. We went out on strike two weeks later. It’s all about healthcare. Healthcare could resolve our strike. I was looking last night, I was doing a little bit of research. I found that in this country, 650,000 people each year go bankrupt because of their medical bills. That’s more people than who live in the city of Detroit. We have the richest country in the world. We have almost 800 billionaires in this country, and we have people, we have more people than who live in Detroit that are filing for bankruptcy because they cannot pay their medical bills. That to me, that’s crazy. That’s a crazy way to run a country and it’s unsustainable.
John Palmer:
I couldn’t agree more. Corporate America is destroying America. They own the political system, they own the politicians and people are doing without people used to inherit things like their homes from their parents. And that nowadays people get sick and they lose everything they own before they become a ward of the state. There has to be a better way to administer healthcare than we’re doing right now. People’s wellbeing should be tied to corporate profits
Steve Zeltzer:
And the A-F-L-C-I-O, the teamsters, these national unions, you think they should make a focus here as an example of the fact that if people can’t get healthcare in East Palestine after what happened, this catastrophe caused by Norfolk Southern, what does it mean for the rest of workers who are losing their jobs or on strike or they can’t afford healthcare, their life is destroyed. That’s really nightmare what people are going through. Yeah,
Steve Mellon:
Well, that’s a good point. And one of the things that makes me proud about this effort here is that it is union people coming together with working people, working class people. So we’re not here asking for higher wages for ourselves. We’re not asking for better benefits for ourselves. We’re looking at a working class community that’s struggling because they don’t have healthcare because they were damaged by a billion dollar company that dumped a toxic load in their backyards. That’s why we’re here. And that is something that can affect any community in the United States. It doesn’t matter whether you’re a union member or a non-union member. That’s what it’s all about. And I think for labor going forward, that seems to me to be the path to see where we come together. We can come together on these issues. It doesn’t matter what the one day of the year when you walk into a voting booth and flip a switch, we can disagree on that, right? Where’s that going to get us in five years? We’re still going to have the same discussion about healthcare. It’s like, but we can change that. There’s power in us coming together across union lines and include people who are not union because we have the same interests and we can benefit from the same winning, the same battles.
John Palmer:
So I’m going to reinforce Steve’s statement again, we have a commonality as human beings. I coached my kids basketball, football, baseball. Many of the kids that I coached worked for, competitors of the company I worked for, and they were non-Union. We all still love and care about one another. Some of us were unions, some of us, this is bigger than whether you’re in a union or not. This is about us as Americans and we’ve got to solve this problem. This is getting away from us and the only way we’re going to solve this problem is from the grassroots. All the institutions are pushing back against us because of the money and the influence. It’s got to come from the grassroots.
Steve Zeltzer:
So that should be a lesson of other workers around the country who face similar things, uniting together around issues like healthcare
Steve Mellon:
And uniting around them. I mean, because we are going to disagree on some things. We’re going to disagree on politics. That’s kind of a given. Who gives a crap in the end? We can disagree about politics and we can’t get anything done that way we can get something done if we come together around the issues that are important to us and recognize, John makes a great point. Recognize the humanity in each other and resist the temptation to have arguments and to disagree on. There are organizations in this world that thrive when we fight and we don’t have to do that. We don’t have to give into that. We can come together and agree on these things. It feels a lot better to me to do that and to think, okay, we have a goal that we can all agree on and we can all go in the same direction here.
Steve Zeltzer:
And getting the CWA, our union nationally to call on Biden to do this, getting the teamsters, getting the a FL sale S Scheller, that would be a step forward if they could all come together and say, let’s get healthcare for the people of East Pals grew, group of workers and families who are suffering, who are getting cancer, getting heart problems. I mean just the basic human get healthcare for these people.
John Palmer:
I couldn’t agree more. I mean a longtime organizer, I think about folks that whatever your faith is, Jesus was a great organizer. What would Jesus do? That used to be an old lifelong question. Would Jesus approve of people not having healthcare and literally dying? Isn’t there a community responsibility here? So it’s on us to stand up, fight and be
Vina Colley:
Heard. My name is Vina Colley and I’m president of the Portmouth Piketon, residents for environmental safety and security. Co-founded National Nuclear Workers for Justice. I’m a former worker of the portmouth acid diffusion plant in Piketon, Ohio.
Speaker 21:
That’s okay.
Vina Colley:
I’ve been researching this plant for almost 39 years, and I found that we found out that we had pum at the plant. I was an electrician there and I was cleaning down the electrical equipment and found out that it had PCB Polychlorinated by Finlin Oil on it, and we was told it was just oil and we were cleaning it with trichlorethylene. Well, I found out in 1985 this oil was radioactive oil that we had been cleaning, and we weren’t told that it was radioactive oil and we weren’t suited up for it. So when we got through cleaning the electrical equipment, we dumped all this stuff down the drains. So when I started getting sick and found out what I was working in, my doctor told me I needed to go back and tell them that they needed to suit me up and protect me because we were working in some really nasty chemicals.
And at that time we didn’t know about the bium and Neptune. And in 93 I found out that we had bium at the site. So I did a, went to a meeting that the DOE was having, and I told them that they have pum at the plant, and that was in 93 and they ignored me. Well, in 1999 it came out that Paducah and Oak Ridge and Portsmouth had peton at the site, and I was able to break that story with Mary Bird Davis. Due to that 99 report of atium, we were able to get a compensation bill in for the workers.
Of course, no bill they put in is a good bill, but there’s always time to change. The bill workers are still fighting, trying to get compensated. Some of them are, and we were an SEC site, and that means that we are a spatial exposure CL heart. And what that meant was they couldn’t prove our exposures so we didn’t have to be dosed if we had one of the 22 cancers on the list. And of course some of the toxic chemical illnesses. And so what NIOSH is doing now, they are dosing these workers, the widows and their families just so they can turn ’em down for compensation. I mean, it’s horrible. And so I help a lot of workers and of course I have an attorney out of New York Hug Stevens that helps a lot of workers in the community. And so this has been a horrible fight and most of the documents that I have came from the company.
They admitted they had this problem, but they won’t admit it to the community. So they continue to do what they want. But what’s going on out there is Bill Gates is a big founder for nuclear stuff and they want to put two small modular reactors at Piketon and they want to reprocess all the transera waste that we have in the world, including the foreign waste, and they want to ship it to Piketon. In this Transera is where you get your Neptune, your plutonium, and your amia. We had to shut a school down 2018 or 19 because they found the Neptune and AMIA in the school. And this was, I’m sorry. That’s okay. This is the only school that has been tested. We have many other schools there that haven’t even been tested yet. And 14 miles from the plant is another air monitor, and it was picking up Ann Maia and Neptune. And so Anna White was the secretary of Energy. She came in and she wanted to help the people there, but when she got back to Washington DC, they fired her and put on and hired another department of Energy. It’s just such a horrible story. It’s hard to talk about
Steve Zeltzer:
It. And the government should be protecting the people.
Vina Colley:
Yes, they should be pet
Steve Zeltzer:
Protected. I mean, it seems like the government is basically trying to obstruct the workers and their families and children from getting the healthcare and protection they need.
Vina Colley:
Well, I have a brother-in-Law who worked at the plant. He died of cancer. His wife died of cancer. His son just died three months ago at the age of 50 some with kidney cancer. I haven’t had the cancers. I’ve had the tumors and the skin cancer, but I have brilliant disease, neuropathy, heart, and I have so many, it’s hard to remember ’em all, but I never had anything. When I went to work there, I was a completely healthy worker and they ran extra tests on me to make sure I was that healthy. So my father, he lived to be 92 years old, him and his brother. So I have that healthy gene and no matter how much I’ve suffered, I know I don’t look sick. A lot of people say, well, you don’t look sick. Well, I don’t get up every day trying to look sick, but I suffer.
I suffer a lot when I sit down. It’s hard to get up, but once I start moving, I do. Okay, well, I found out that they were compensating the workers at Oakridge and Paducah, but not ton. So we got Ted Strickland, our representative, and he pushed really hard to get our compensation. And so that’s how we got the compensation bill there. Well, now what’s going on is for the community, there’s a bill called rca, and it’s a downwinders bill that the uranium miners are on, and they just again added Paducah and Oak Ridge and St. Louis. So they’re trying to get that bill and it went through the Senate and now it’s laying in the house Bill. So we’re trying to talk representatives in and educating them what’s going on at Piland because Piland has the highest cancer in the state of Ohio. Joe Manano, an epidemiologist came in and he studied the facility.
He did two studies. His second one that he did, he said the seven surrounding counties around the Piketon area are also highest rate of cancer in the state of Ohio. And we’re probably, I think he said around 85, 80 7% nationally. Well, as soon as I found out last week they were going to leave Piketon out of the compensation bill, I put a petition online and then I got ahold of Senator Brown, hold of Senator Vance, and then we got a hold of win through, and now we are working with Jim Johnson to try to help get Pinton added on this RICA bill. And so we have a petition line and it’s under in my Facebook, under Vina VINA, Colley, C-O-L-L-E-Y, and we encourage everyone to sign on to this petition, what’s went on. I mean, we’ve been sacrificed. They don’t want to shut Piketon down.
They want to keep some of it running. And what happened for 70 years, we were told that we were enriching uranium and doing nothing but uranium. But this whole time, 70 years, we were reprocessing transgenic material from West Valley, New York, from Hanford for some Banner River, and in 1992 we did the megawatts megatons for Russia. So the whole facility, 3,800 acres is contaminated onsite and offsite, our water and our air, and it’s horrible when you have to go through all this and then watch your family members pass away and watch a lot of the workers struggle to get the compensation.
Steve Zeltzer:
And we’re here today in East Palestine. What do you think about what’s going on here? You’ve come from another part of Ohio, but it seems like the toxic dumps, the dangers, health and safety dangers that people face in Ohio and all over this country, they need to be brought together so people understand it. So why are you here today in East Palestine?
Vina Colley:
I’m here to support them and I hope that they can get health insurance for this community because they’re sort of under a different policy than we are because we’re under the Department of Energy and Department of Defense, and this is the community that a railroad train went through and derailed and they contaminated the whole community and they need health insurance. I’ve talked to some of the people that here and they’re suffering. I mean, they’re losing their homes, they lost their jobs, they can’t work, and the government needs to compensate these people, the trains. Someone needs to go to the railroad company and let them know that they need to change their policies because they’re not safe. What they normally do is they have some accident like this, they fire somebody and then they go right on and do the same thing over again. Some of those containers that they shipped into Python were depleted uranium cylinders and these railroad workers set on top of these cylinders.
And I’ve had a couple of friends that worked there that worked around the cylinders and these cylinders give off. These are depleted uranium cylinders and they give off neutron exposures and these railroad workers were setting on them, but my friends passed away with cancer. So it just seems like no one is concerned about the environment, what’s going on and how to protect the worker. The worker should have hazardous pay. The railroad workers should have hazardous pay. The piketon workers should have hazardous pay, but in 1992 is the cutoff period for the workers to be compensated, and these workers are getting into a lot of stuff and not properly suited up and they’re doing airborne demolition at pipe them. So this stuff is going into the air. I’ve been helping Dr. Michael Ketter. We’ve been getting samples and I have a air monitor that I’ve made at my house and is picking up some of their products and I kind of think it’s where they started up the centrifuge on a test run in November, but we don’t know until we get all the studies back, but it’s been a trip. It’s cost a lot of money to try to fight the government, but I can’t stop. When you go look at these kids that are dying of cancer and you talk to their families that are suffering, you just can’t stop. You just got to keep pushing.
Steve Zeltzer:
And this coming together in Ohio at East Palestinians seems like it’s brought a lot of different people together, environmentalists and unionists and health and safety people and railroad workers that it’s the same fight, it’s the same struggle.
Vina Colley:
Yes, it’s the same struggle for all of us and we all need to come together, whether we’re a DOE site or if we’re just a community that you live in and this train wrecked. I mean, it’s not these people’s fault. The government should move them for one thing and then give them health insurance and relocate ’em to a better place to live. They’ve had a couple lawsuits. They’ve never moved those people and they lived butted up to the plant within a mile. I mean, and their water, their wells were contaminated and they didn’t even tell the people we found. I found a paper at the EPA office that said that the Dunham’s wells was contaminated with magnesium 99, and the government never told them. We told them,
Steve Zeltzer:
And the EPA here issued a document saying vinyl chloride was not a danger to people here. They had done tests and everything was fine.
Vina Colley:
I am pretty sure we had that at piketon and it wasn’t one of the hazardous chemicals that was listed.
Steve Zeltzer:
So they’re lying. They’re lying to cover up.
Vina Colley:
They lie. They always lie. They cover up. And a lot of our representatives when they come to Piketon, they hold a meeting and they take ’em on plant side. We were not ever allowed to come and talk to our representatives. And right now I’m working with them and this is the first time that we’ve been able to work with them since I’ve been, well, Glenn, Senator Glenn and Ted Strickland and them help push for our compensation bill back in 99, but since 99, we haven’t been able to get anyone to pay attention. I wrote Biden a letter three or four months ago and said that if anyone needed to be in that RICO bill, it should have been the gased diffusion plants. Well, they tried to put two of them in and trying to leave Pcan out again, but Brown’s office and Vance’s office, Brad Winthrop and Jim Jordan has given me a direct email line to send them these documents to see if they can help us get into Reka.
Steve Zeltzer:
Well, thank you for joining us.
Part of this conference that we’re able to hold here was a result of the fact that we got really support from the workers of Iowa and this labor council in Iowa was key in making this thing happen. And I think that really it shows solidarity, solidarity all over this country. And one of the proposals possibly we’re going to act on is to have another conference in Iowa at their labor temple because they have the same problems in Iowa that they have here in East Palestine. And Penny Lockton is a chapter president of her local. She’s with painter’s union and she’s a tireless fighter for human rights and justice. Welcome, penny.
Carrie Duncan:
Oh my gosh, we are so honored to be here. I kid you not
Speaker 23:
Quiet God, please guest speakers from Iowa say thank you.
Carrie Duncan:
First of all, this is really all about you. Solidarity is about all of us and I’m so excited to be here. I’m sorry for the reason, but we are very proud to stand up with our brothers and sisters and all of our allies. If you truly believe in solidarity, I really, really believe we can achieve anything. And it has been proven over and over again by our forefathers and what they went through and
It wasn’t all bad. What you always think it’s bad. It’s been wonderful too. And we would not have been here without them. We’re very, very excited. And like I said, we didn’t do this ourselves. We were very fortunate that Jeff Kurtz had taken the time that he gave, and this is the way so many opportunities have came forth to the Lee County Labor chapters. It’s been the work that our members have done outside of our chapter that has brought opportunities to us. Now, I will be honest with you, I am going to brag a little bit our labor chapter when someone brings something to the table, never have I heard, oh my gosh, how are we going to do that? No, don’t show up. It is always, and I swear this is the way it is. Okay, what do we need to do? Make it happen. What do we need to do to make it happen? And then as honestly the way our labor chapter runs. And so again, we’re very, very honored to be here and I’m just going to put something personal in here. We would not be here if it wasn’t for the residents and victims that stood up.
I want you to know how proud I am of all of you who stood up and organized and organized more and continued to share what the Norfolk Southern Freight Train,
Speaker 16:
I’m
Carrie Duncan:
Sorry, OMA did to you,
Did to your citizens, the community surrounding 20 mile area and all the workers before and after the derailment. To me, it’s no different than the person that steps up and grieves. If you don’t grieve when you need to grieve, your whole world suffers for that, your brothers and sisters. So I just wanted to let you know how proud I am that you did that on January 4th. Seriously, on January 4th, 2024 during the Lee County Labor chapter meeting, when Jeff brother Jeff Kurtz brought the opportunity to collaborate with Steve Seltzer and Chris Albright to organize a national campaign with goals of bringing the story and struggles of the residents and workers of East Palestinian, Ohio to the attention of all union members, all allies across the nation to demand healthcare for our union brothers and sisters, their families and victims. We were all in on February 3rd, 2023 at 8:55 PM a North Fork Southern Freight train pulling more than 150 cars derailed, including 38 tanker cars carrying vinyl chloride, unknown cancer causing chemical.
February 4th, 2023, after the catastrophic derailment responders conducted a control burn, which released hydrogen chloride and phosgene into the air. Phosgene is a colorless. Gas exposure may cause irritation to the eyes, dry burning, throat, vomiting, cough, foamy, sputum, breathing difficulties and chest pain. It is especially dangerous to those little lungs. Sunday, February 5th, 2023, there was a mandatory evacuation warning, residents of a potential for toxic gas release residents were told, leave now. If you don’t, we are not coming back for you. Monday, February 6th, 2023, after the catastrophic derailment responders conducted a control burn which released hydrogen chloride into the air Foxy, oh, excuse me, I’m sorry, Omaha, Nebraska AP reported Norfolk Southern’s costs related to the East Palestine derailment have grown to nearly $1 billion and its insurance companies have started to pay their share of the cost of the crash. In eastern Ohio, the Atlantic based railroad reported third quarter profits of $478 million without the derailment costs.
They said the third quarter profits would have been $601 million. Six months later, Congress is deadlock on new rules of safety. February 3rd, 2024, on the first anniversary of the catastrophic derailment, the newly formed Justice for East Palestine residents and Workers Campaign hosted a Zoom panel including the Iowa Federation of Labor President Charlie Wishman, who spoke about workers safety is community safety. It is incredible that it has been a full year since the Norfolk Southern Freight train derailment and the residents and workers are still struggling and left with many unanswered issues, including lack of accessible and funded mental health and physical coverage. Think about it. How long has it been since you have seen or heard anything during the news regarding the North Forest Southern Freight train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio? Unless you have listened to Max Alvarez Real News,
Speaker 5:
Where is he? Where is he
Carrie Duncan:
Or Steve Zeltzer on Workweek or Pacifica? Stand up. Stand up.
Speaker 5:
Stand up.
Carrie Duncan:
You probably hadn’t heard anything if it wasn’t for them.
Speaker 5:
That’s right.
Carrie Duncan:
Today we are letting our brothers and sisters know their families in East Palestine, their residents, workers, and all victims know that they are not alone nor forgotten. Today, union Brothers, union brothers and sisters, filmmakers, musicians, political cartoonists, toxic free future podcast producers, journalists, environmentalists, nuclear works for Justice, Alliance for retired Americans, all citizens and allies across this nation stand united in solidarity with you and demand access to and medical funded healthcare for all victims of this catastrophic Norfolk Southern Freight train derailment in East Palestinians. Stand up
Speaker 5:
And yell. Absolutely.
Carrie Duncan:
These are our people and we will not quit until all victims are made whole. We are going to stand in solidarity for you, and I cannot wait to share. Actually, I want to thank someone else too. Steve Zeltzer has been absolutely incredible. If it wasn’t for him, we would not be here today. Amen. He truly, you are beyond commendable. Truly. Absolutely. And he brought the solution to the table, which brought this all together so much quicker. And so thank you so much. And then we have Chris Albright. We want to thank him. Hey Chris. Chris has been phenomenal throughout all of this, and I know a lot of you have too, but if it wasn’t for Steve and Chris, we wouldn’t be here today. Honestly, I just can’t tell you enough that you are not alone, and this is what Union does. We see the problem, we educate people and we bring the solution, and that’s what we’re going to do today. Thank you.
Jeff Kurtz:
Thank you brothers and sisters. I had to write everything down because we started out at 11 o’clock and I’m not really good when I’m totally rested. So what are you laughing at? So I have to organize my thoughts here a little bit. I’d like to start off thanking the hosts of this event, the residents of East Palestine. I love doing this kind of stuff because of the fact that you meet such nice people. I mean, you meet people that are different than you, but are a different nice than you, and it is just really a lot of fun for me, and
Thank you for letting us come into your community and help you, right? Some of the wrongs that have been done to you. There’s not that much of a difference between East Palestine and a small town in Iowa that we come from. I’ve lived most of my life back in Fort Madison, Iowa. In fact, back in November of 2021, we had a derailment on the Mississippi River about 10 miles south of us in an even smaller town called Montrose, Iowa. I think it’s got 1,015 hundred residents, something like that. And it was caused, if you can believe it, by a train, barge, collision. Anybody that has any questions about that, I’ll explain that later. But we were very lucky because that train was a coal train and didn’t have hazardous materials. So the contents that went into the river were relatively easy to clean up, but that derailment could have been much worse because hazardous materials do run on that line.
As with the derailment here, the whole problem was pretty complex, but the major parts of that problem are pretty easy to take care of quickly. So with the help of our sheriff back home and a couple of union brothers, we got the information on the derailment and we took our case to the capitol in Des Moines where we met with the transportation committees, representatives from the house and Senate side. So working together, we composed a letter and I’ve got that here if anybody wants to see it. And we used that as a basis for a solution to a problem. And believe it or not, this training barge stuff had been plaguing us for 14 years. So we made everything work because of cooperation from everybody involved and the desire to protect people living along the right of way and the desire to ensure that something like that would never happen again.
So I thought about this when we did look back in relation to the problems that we’re facing. Now, the issues with the situation are more numerous here because of the severity of the derailment and the nature of the spill. But the methods needed to come to a solution is pretty much essentially the same. The problem as a whole is pretty complex, but the major parts of it are pretty simple to handle. I mean, we handle those and then we can take our time with the other parts of that problem. Right now for the safety and wellbeing of the community, because of what you’ve been exposed to, healthcare should be the number one priority so that any ill effects to your health from what you’ve been exposed to can be headed off before they become too serious. There are several different mechanisms to do that. On the federal level, we’ve got legislation that can be utilized to get you healthcare that nobody’s doing anything about. On the state level, there are two states right now, Connecticut and Arizona that are trying to wipe out medical debt for their constituents. Now, if those states can afford to do something that is as expensive as wiping out medical debt for the whole state, then the state of Ohio can provide healthcare for the citizens of East Palestine,
Especially after this catastrophe, when they can eventually recover the costs from the Norfolk Southern. In the rail industry, we refer to the Ns as the Nazi Southern. So that gives you a clue of what people think of them. Okay? Now there are those with a different agenda than ours that are going to try to make everything complicated and throw in all kinds of other issues. So it looks like things are much more difficult to do than they really are. And by God, they’re fighting hard for you against the other side and the other side’s fighting hard for you against that side, and it just goes back and forth. But if you listen to these people, they’re saying the same thing. They’re just saying it in a different tone. You’ve got to listen to what they say and not how they say it. So that’s where the people of this conference comes in.
There are enough of us on all sides of the political spectrum to hold everyone accountable. We can hold the state and we can hold the federal people accountable and get some things done like healthcare for you guys. If the people that would normally be aligned with us try to blame the other side, then we need to let them know that there are things that they could do if they were sufficiently motivated to do so, that the pain and suffering people are going through right now wouldn’t be nearly as bad as it is. I recently contacted my friend Nikki, because one thing I’ve learned throughout my life is I don’t have to be the smartest person in the room, but I better know where and who the smartest people are. And Nikki’s always going to be one of the smartest people.
No, I’m just kidding. No. She directed me towards some materials dealing with how we can cooperate with people and accomplish goals. I’m convinced that if we put aside differences and work toward common goals, the most important at this time would be healthcare for East Palestine, that we can accomplish those goals. As one of my former bosses used to tell me, and you got to imagine this in a Boston accent because he was from Boston, Kurt’s, if nothing else, get a bite of the apple and quit trying to swallow it. Whole healthcare for the residents is that first bite of the apples. Thank you for inviting us and let’s not hear any more flowery speeches or pretty words. Let’s get our hands dirty and do the work and get that stuff done.
Jami Rae Wallace:
Yeah. Oh, that’s a way to put me behind the microphone on that one. Hey, brothers and sisters, I’ve Sister Duncan, I so happy to be here with you all today, unfortunately, and you hosting this wonderful event for us to have, unfortunately for the reason bad. And as we all know, the train tracks are scattered everywhere throughout the United States, right? We’re connected. We’re sick and tired, damn sick and tired of them dividing the people in this country. They have suppressed other groups that have tried to do something when there’s been issues us getting here today, we want to bring you some hope and some faith that something will be done. It’s time for this country to turn around and we’re ready to do that because you know what? When it’s all said and done, at the end of the day, we’re all one, right? We have a common bond right now, a common bond to do something to hold our elected leadership in this country accountable for their actions to their people in the United States of America. Today. When this all started at our Lee County Labor chapter meeting, brother Kurtz mentioned his connections with everybody, and we said,
What do you think I’d do? Well, we ought to go there. Here we’re
Speaker 5:
Woohoo
Jami Rae Wallace:
And through hell and high water, we came here to get to you today. And even a broken bus, a belt on a bus, if it could happen, it will happen. Murphy’s Law and sitting on that bus
Gave me a lot to think about. Nothing great was ever accomplished without obstacles. And all of you sitting in this room today, how many times have you been them? Roadblocks been up every day. That’s right. Well, it’s damn time that their roadblocks are set aside because we’re going to come together today as we have, and we’re going to bring about change in this country, and they’re going to start listening because we’re going to gather in numbers. And when they see the numbers, they’re going to be like, these people are really serious and they’re going to know that you’re tired of being suppressed. Time to move forward. You need healthcare. We have people in this country who need healthcare. What the hell is so hard about that? It should be on the number one priority list, and especially for people that are suffering from these mass casualties. How hard is it to declare this a mass casualty a year later? You haven’t done anything about it. I know Vina, I’ve listened, read some of these things. Years doing this.
Speaker 5:
Everyone was four.
Jami Rae Wallace:
Yeah, you’ve been in the fight, sister in the fight. You haven’t given up. We live in the great United States of America, right? I dunno about you, but I love this country. We all love this country, but the people of the country must come first. So it’s time to take a new direction to put the people first. The spark that leads to a flame of solidarity has begun for the people in this great country of whom have been sequestered into silence, forged into the great pits of forgottenness. Shall from this day forward be no more. Right? Brothers and sisters, so like they talked about, we have a resolution, there’s going to be something to follow. So many times things get off to the side, they don’t get addressed. Thanks to that brother right over there on the end. That’s Steve getting the resolution. Max spreading the real deal news. I’ve had so many workers at work lately. I work at an ammunition facility for 16 years, and they’re like, what’s the real news? I said, here, I handed them the thing and I said, tune into this. So yeah, that’s the real news. And brother Chris coming out to Iowa, which was wonderful too. Thanks for getting this all together today, Mike Music we know motivates us. That song brought tears of joy to our eyes and tears of sadness. Time to end the sadness. That song motivated us. We thank you for your God gifted talent to do that.
Steve Mellon, that you over there. I recognize some of you on Zoom. You’ve all been great on these Zoom calls. This is something that we’ve lived for many years. And you know how many of you have kids at home, right? Yeah. How do you want to leave this country for them kids? Well, guess what? We’re responsible for that. And as of today, we’re going to hold these damn people to do what is right and get healthcare. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker 5:
So
Steve Zeltzer:
We are going to have a panel on the media and we can have questions, but one of the things that we have to do is get this story out. That’s why we have this meeting today, to get the voices of the people of East Palestine out to know what the hell’s going on. So we’re going to have a panel, a short panel of the journalists, and then we have some proposed resolutions, which we’re going to come up with because out of this has to come action. Only our collective action can change this situation and we can win. We can force Biden to make this declaration. If we get enough power going in the working class, in the unions, if we go to every union in this country, every national convention, you have to address this. If you can’t help the people of East Palestine, who the hell can you help? Who the hell can you help? That’s what I want to know.
That’s what we have to say to the leadership of our unions. You got to put into action, you got to put your body and our labor movement to act for our brothers and sisters, because acting for them is acting for all of us. No human being should be without healthcare. All workers in this country, all people should have healthcare. That’s what we’re fighting for. It’s a human right, and that’s what we’re going to get. That’s right. They’re running for office. All these politicians are running for office. Okay, well get healthcare for East Palestine. Can you do that? Absolutely, yes. Can you do that? Is that too radical to help the people of East Palestine with healthcare think about this? Is that too radical? But most people in this country, because of the corporate media, are unaware of the fact that they don’t have healthcare. Again, that’s our responsibility. So I dunno, what do people think? Should we have this media panel? Do you want to have that or should we just talk about what we’re going to do?
Maximillian Alvarez:
Yeah, so no needs to hear from the media right now, right? You guys are doing the work. Our job is to make sure other people know about it, right? This is not about me. This is not about any of us. Same thing with Steve Mellon, right? We keep coming back because I don’t think you can be human and listen to what our brothers and sisters and neighbors are going through here and just say, good luck with that. I’m going to go on with my life. There’s no way you can do that and have a heart. And so I want to impress upon people just like a few things, and then I really, yeah, I think that we should spend the last half hour talking about what we can do here in our communities, how we take this message back and turn it into something. How many more people from our communities can we get involved in this movement Now?
You heard the residents, they can’t wait. They’ve been waiting over a year. They’re waiting on us to help. So time is of the essence. We’re all feeling the solidarity. We’re all feeling good, but we need to take that feeling and turn it into urgent action wherever we go. Back to tomorrow. Do it for the people here. Do it for Chris’s kids. Do it for yourself. Because as we’ve said, this could be any one of us, and that’s what I just want to impress upon people. I don’t need to get on a panel and talk. I got into this because I interview working people for a living. That’s the name of my show. Podcast, working People that I started years ago when Megan and I were like broke grad students in Ann Arbor. No one was listening, but it was important, and I just want to stress that you can’t do that work. You can’t do the work that I do. You can’t do the work that organizers do every day. Talking to members and potential members around the country about their lives, their jobs, their dreams, their struggles, and not come to a few basic conclusions. The most immediate and obvious of which if you actually listen, is that we are all living in an active corporate crime scene across this fucking country.
The bastards are getting away with it. They are winning. And I hear it from workers everywhere I started. Everyone feels forgotten. I want to just stress that because I know people here feel forgotten. And I promise you that your fellow workers out there, it’s not that they don’t care about you, it’s that they feel forgotten too, and that makes us feel bitter, cold, abandoned. But we’re all being abandoned by the same people, by our government, by the corporations, by the media. I started my show because I was a warehouse worker working 12, 13 hour days, 12 years ago while we were in the midst of losing everything, including the house I grew up in. I remember sitting on my couch with my dad after a 12 hour shift watching the news talk about an economic recovery that was passing us by and we felt forgotten. I talked to UAW members about their plants closing just down the road. I talked to folks in Lordstown in season one of my show. I remember when Trump came there and said, don’t sell your homes. And then a year later, the plants still closed. They laid off 14,000 people. So my folks lost everything under a Democratic administration. People here losing everything under a Republican Democrat, we get the theme.
But I talk to people who feel that forgotten everywhere. I talk to a father in Uvalde who is a fellow worker and union member. What they’re going through is what you’re going through. They were the story of the day. One month, everyone was promising change. Never again. Never again. He’s out there camping in front of the police department now trying to get change. He feels as forgotten as you do. We need to be a coalition of the forgotten and force power to never forget us again. And so you can’t do the work that I do and not come to that conclusion. You can’t not talk to people who were on the deep water horizon when it blew who were telling you. BP sacrifice safety for profits, and now we’re all paying for that. Who wants to get on a Boeing flight right now when they’re sacrificing safety for profits?
Who wants to live near a rail line right now when they’re sacrificing our communities for profits? This is a sickness that is coming for all of us. If it hasn’t come for you yet, or it may have and you don’t know it, you may be bio accumulating the crap that they’re poisoning with you, with you right now. We’re all half plastic at this point anyway, so don’t wait until the tumor grows, right? We have to leave here and get people to understand that this is not going to go away unless we do something about it, because that’s the other conclusion that I come to doing. The work that I do. I come to the conclusion that I think we’ve all come to here. That is Thomas Payne, one of the great thinkers of this country, famously said, we have it within our power to make the world over again.
We, the working people who built this country, we, the people who make this country great. Alan Shaw doesn’t make shit great. You make this country great, we make this country great. Let’s take it back. And we have the power to do that. You all do. So please do not leave here without something to do. Do not leave here without at least one person in your mind that you’re going to get involved in this fight. Because we need, you, need all of you. And it’s not just going to end at getting the folks of East Palestine healthcare because they need so much more than that. We know, but they need that now. But everyone around this country feels hopeless. Feels like change is never going to come from the people we’re expecting it to come from. Our politicians are business leaders. And what is inspiring about you guys, even amidst the horrifying circumstances that you are in, is that I hear from people around the country tell me they’re just like me and they are taking the future into their own hands and they made me realize that I am the hero I’ve been waiting for.
I am the change I’ve been waiting for. So I’ll leave you with this. This is like that moment in the movie. This is Helms Deep, right? This is when Gond door is calling for aid. Everything feels lost, but you all lit the flame. And if some of us are here now, go light the flame somewhere else. And because if we do this, if we pull this off, if we mobilize enough people and get Biden to enact the Stafford Act and we make that immovable mountain shake just a little bit, imagine what that’s going to do for everyone out there who feels hopeless, right? So go door calls for aid, answer that call, go back to your communities, tell them to answer that call because it doesn’t stop here. Thank you brothers and sisters for being here.
Steve Mellon:
I’m not going to follow Max. My name’s Steve Mellon. For those of you who don’t know, I’m a journalist at the Pittsburgh Union Progress now, which is the union. Progress is a strike paper. We had a booth up here earlier. Some of my colleagues were here. Unfortunately, they had to leave. They had young kids, they had to leave. There’s some pamphlets over here. They’re blue and well white pamphlets over here. If you want to learn a little bit more of the strike about the strike. It’s interesting to me that we’re here talking about healthcare. I walked out after 25 years of working as a journalist at the Post Gazette. I walked out in October of 2022, going on 18 months ago. What triggered that strike was that the owners of the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, the newspaper I worked for, yanked the healthcare away from five unions, four unions, I’m sorry, four unions that triggered the strike, right? We are here today asking for what? Healthcare. Healthcare. It’s a basic human right? Basic. We live in the richest country in the world. I heard Chris, I think you mentioned billionaires early. I did some research. We have 758 billionaires in the United States. I have no idea how many billions they control. It’s a lot more than we control.
I looked this up on the internet, so it’s got to be true, right? Every year in the United States, 650,000 people file for bankruptcy because of medical debt. That is more people than live in the city of Detroit. That is incredible and it’s heartbreaking. That’s the common that’s thread here is healthcare. You’re right, Hillary. It is a human right? I don’t want to keep you all very long here, but I just want to remind folks that we’re going to leave here today and we’re going to go back to our homes and we’re going to lay our heads down on pillows that are safe and homes that are safe. And if we have kids, we’re going to trust that our kids are safe. But there are people who told their stories here today, they can’t go home to homes that they know are safe. They’re going to wake up tomorrow with the same questions they had yesterday in the day before.
Am I living in a house that is poisoning my children, is poisoning me? It’s springtime. They come in and they go outside and they see some pollen or dust in the air. You see this all the time in spring. We don’t have to worry about what’s in that pollen or dust, do we? They’re always going to have that concern here. We don’t have the concern or the worry of having friends that we no longer talk to, lifelong friends that we no longer talk to because a derailment like this splits the town. Norfolk comes in and drops a toxic bomb in their backyard and then splits and leaves the town to deal with the stress and the pressure of that. You know what that happens, what that does to friendships, what it does to relationships, to marriages. We can go home and we don’t have that stress. The people here in East Palestine will continue to have that stress,
Speaker 15:
Right? No, it’s wrong. Good old conquer divide.
Steve Mellon:
That’s that’s what they want to do. That’s what they
Speaker 15:
Have done.
Steve Mellon:
That’s what they done. So take that with you. When you go home, take that with you. Remember that the people here that are going to stay here, this should be a motivating factor for us. They continue to have to deal with these things. One thing I want to say to the folks here in East Palestine is your stories have power. Your stories have real power. The reason we are here today is because Steve heard Chris Albright’s story on Max’s real network. That’s how this started. It started with a story. It started with Chris’s story. So I’ll leave you with that. I’m going to leave some cards up here. The strike paper is the Pittsburgh Union progress. It’s just union progress.com. I can’t promise you, we will be around forever. We are trying to resolve our strike. If our strike is resolved, the strike paper will go away. We will continue to cover. I will continue to cover this no matter where I have.
Jeff Kurtz:
I want to emphasize one last thing that Steve brought up. The way we lose is we’re divided. The way we win is we’re united and they want to keep us divided. They want us, and by divided, I don’t just mean pitted against each other politically. I mean they want us separated. And I want to tell you something. What we got here, we got something I ain’t seen in 50 years. We got people here in one town that are the same families and the same brothers and sisters. They’re the workers, they’re in unions. They’re dealing with an environment that is putrid and they’re dealing with a healthcare system that is bankrupt and it’s all the same people they could put in the walls in East Palestine. They can try to, but we ain’t going to let ’em. And I’m asking people here. I’m telling you one thing.
As I’ve been dealing with these rotten bastard corporations, I could go on for hours about the battles we fought and one thing they want is they want us to go away. That’s their number one goal to make you shut up and go away. Well, let’s I say when you’re dealing, when a government and with a system and corporations that are as radical as these are, and when you screw people like East Palestine and then you screw people like Palestine over there at the same time, they’re pretty rotten people in my book. And when you’re dealing with rotten people, you got to get militant. I mean, you have to stand up and together and get mail. I’m going to tell you right now, we can issue all the resolutions and all the petitions we want, but if they don’t read it and they don’t see it, they don’t give a damn. Absolutely. I think we take this fight to them, we take it to Norfolk Southern, we take it to Biden, we take it to our Congress people. And when we go back to our unions and they ask us, well, what do you want? I’m going to tell ’em we want money for buses to put us on to go to our Congress people down in DC and Columbus or wherever they are and sit in their damn office until they give you people healthcare.
Steve Zeltzer:
I wanted to say before we start this panel as a labor journalist and covering workers in communities, one of the people that I cover are whistleblowers and whistleblowers have been making complaints about environmental dangers, toxins and dangers at the shipyard and many other places. And these whistleblowers are fired left and right and there are thousands of them on the railroads. I’ve interviewed them who’ve been fired. So the reality is, is that workers who want to protect themselves and protect the environment are themselves under attack. And that’s why they’re afraid to speak up. When workers are afraid to speak up about health and safety, you got a disaster coming because it goes on and on and on. Our first speaker is Cauley, and she was an electrician at Pikes down at a nuclear facility and has been fighting to protect the people in that community in Ohio. And they’re still being contaminated and they’re still fighting for justice. Welcome
Vina Colley:
Final. Before the railroad workers leave, they need to know that they’re trying to make piketon a nuclear hub and they’ll be shipping all of this nuclear waste, transgenic waste from all these sites around the world. And not only that, but they’re going to be shipping foreign product to Piketon and we’re going to be reprocessing it. And they’re trying real hard to put two small modular reactors at Piland and they’re calling them a powerhouse. A powerhouse is what they’re calling it. But they’re two small modular reactors and we’re going to be reprocessing transgenic waste. And transgenic waste has been reprocessed at pike them for 70 years, and that has been the biggest secret there. We thought we were producing uranium and uranium hexa fluorides and making bomb grade material, but what they were doing was reprocessing this reactor fuel for 70 years and never told any of us.
We weren’t suited up to do that, but I just wanted, maybe the railroad works may have some comments about the transera waste that’s coming through there. My name is Vina Colley and I’m president of press Portsmouth Piketon residence for Environmental Safety and Security. We have been in existence since 1987. I’ve been doing this since 1983. I found my first grievance as a worker that I thought there was 30 workers at the plant were being exposed to radiation. I was breaking out with a lot of rashes and I didn’t understand it. And Pike Thinness has 3,800 acres. We have three huge process buildings. It’s the largest facility in the world and it’s the most contaminated facility in the world. But the state of Ohio signed a consent agreement and we were never even put on the Superfund list. And so we just had an epidemiologist that came in, Dr.
Joe Manano, and he found that we have the highest rate in cancer in Pike and Scioto County and the surrounding counties. And so everyone has turned their back on this community. And the reason they have is because they want to bring in those small modular reactors. And transera waste means pum, ameria, Neptune, some of the worst radioactive nucle that you can even think of wants to be processed there. We have the railroad and truck drivers brought in 24,000 depleted uranium cylinders that are setting out in the yard. The cylinders give off neutron exposures. And while they were on the train, some of the workers who worked there were my friends. They said they used to sit on those cylinders. And this is even before I knew that they gave off neutron exposures. Well, these workers were sitting on the cylinders and they stood by ’em all day long in the railroad tracks, and my friends died of cancer.
My husband, he passed away with cancer and some blood stuff. My brother-in-law worked at the plant. His leg got contaminated and he passed away with cancer. My sister-in-Law passed with cancer. My nephew, he worked at the plant. He just died of kidney cancer. Piketon is an SEC site, and what that means is we’re a spatial exposure cohort and that means they can’t prove our exposures. So they passed. They compensated some bill in 1999 because we did have piton and they denied it in. I told him in 93, well, the gas and diffusion plants, Piketon, Paducah, and Oakridge were in this, well, Paducah and Oak Ridge was in the compensation bill and I found out about it and I had poni at Piketon. So we were able to get to our representative Ted Strickland at that time, and we got added to the compensation bill by a thread.
Well, two weeks ago I find out they have this compensation bill, which is called Rica, and I have a petition for it for people to sign. This bill is a down winders bill from the uranium minors, and there’s a couple ladies there in St. Louis. It has the waste facility there that’s killing the people that live around there. So they’ve got this bill opened back up again and trying to get their landfill on the Rica. So when I found out, guess what? They added Paducah and Oak Ridge again and left Piketon out of it. So when I heard it that day, I called my Senator Brown and I told him what was going on and they were having a Senate hearing. So as soon as I called his office, him and JD Vance went to the Senate hearing. We didn’t get on the bill, but we got mentioned.
But it passed the Senate and now this bill is in the house and we’re asking people to call anyone that they know that’s a house representative and tell ’em to put the portlet gas to diffusion plant in that bill. I mean, we have the highest rate of cancer in the state of Ohio, and we’re 87% national there. When I started working there, I thought it was the safest place in the world because they stressed hard hats and safety glasses. Well, come to find out, I was an electrician and we were cleaning uranium contaminated cells with trichlorethylene. And when we got through with this job, we say, where do we dump it? They sit down the drains. So we dumped it down the drains. And then when I went to the doctor and I was breaking out of these rashes and he didn’t know what was wrong with me, but he said, when you go back to work, make sure you suit up.
So I had to suit up and I wore paper cover offs, paper shoes, I wore rubber gloves, and then I would walk in different areas and these guys says, what you got all that on for? And I said, well, they told me to keep it no matter where I’m going. And they were getting nervous. I was even going into the lunchroom wearing these protective equipment. Well, that stuff they gave me to wear did not protect anybody. And so after I filed that grievance in 83, they started watching me on the job and making my supervisors take me everywhere that I went. And then my boss, he had to take care of me and he put me in this golf cart and we went over in the 3 33 building. I said, where are we going? He said, we’re going to go over to, there’s a radiation alarm going over.
We got to reset the alarm. So when we got in that building, we got halfway down the building and here comes this gray stuff after us. And he took and put me on the golf cart and he said, let’s get out of here. He said, the job’s over. I said, what was that stuff coming through there? He never did tell me. So then I got really sick and had to go to a ears, throat and doctor, and he did a biopsy on my lungs and he said that I needed to go to an occupational health and safety hospital and be checked. So I went down to Cincinnati and they did a biopsy or they did a LCO on my lungs. And two weeks after I left the plant, I had two point 12 fluorides in my urinalysis. So I was in a uranium hexa fluoride release at the plant and they didn’t even tell me I worked for five years.
And then I went off and I was on disability and they made sure that they took me off of workers’ comp in 87. And of course I had lost my pension, but they vested pension at five years Goodyear did. And I lived there all my life and I didn’t even know that we were making weapons for the world. I didn’t know it was called Goodyear Atomic. And I thought they made Goodyear tar and rubber. So I thought all this stuff that was leaking through the process building had something to do with making tars. But their product was leaking through the system. They were getting 290 some thousand parts per million up here, but I don’t know what they got down here because there’s other chemicals that was mixing in with it. And they never surveyed the areas that we worked in. They just put us in it.
We had a construction crew that worked there, 19 family members that worked for Boone. Coleman Construction all died from working at the plant, either from cancer or some type of illnesses. And many of those workers got compensated. They would drive the trucks in and Goodyear workers would be suited up, their workers would not be suited up. And so 17 members and we went to Boko and we told him, boom, your workers are not being suited up and they’re putting this stuff in their trucks. And where they hauled it to, we don’t know. We’ve heard ballparks, the racetrack, different places. So I talked to a few workers that’s working there now and they’re doing the same thing. They got truck drivers coming in, taking all this dirt over to the dump. They got 12 cells there. Now our theory was we fought the cells. We didn’t want waste cells because we knew once they start that we would wind up being a dump.
Well, that’s what they’re trying to do now and trying to clean up everybody site and not telling these workers that they don’t get hazardous pay. And then when we got the compensation bill in 1999, somehow or another, they put a limit. If you worked there from 1952 to 1999, you’re automatically adding into this bill. Well, after 92, these workers that are doing all this decontamination and they do open air demo on these buildings and these workers are not in the compensation bill, hopefully the union, I was over at Union Hall and we’ve been talking about the petition and they’re supposed to be working on one, but if that don’t happen, all these workers after 92 will not be compensated for their illnesses. It’s such a tragic, we’ve been sacrificed. They just don’t care. They don’t care who you are. It’s all about money. It’s about greed.
But as soon as I found out that we was on that list for the compensation bill, I called, like I said, brown, and they went straight over to the Senate and JD Vance and I put a petition online. This is an election year. You guys need to petition your representatives to get their buds here to help you. You all need help. Insurance. It’s a shame what they’ve done to you in such a short period of time in a big accident, and they’re going to have a lot more accidents because they’re going to be hauling this waste on these trains. But sometimes I just forget, I lose my concentration. But my illnesses, when I went to work there, I was a healthy worker. They made me take all kinds of extra testing to make sure I was healthy. And since I worked there, and of course I’m a lot older now, but I’ve had these illnesses since I was in my thirties.
I had a total hysterectomy. I had thyroid problems. I have chronic beryllium disease, and there’s no cure for chronic beryllium disease. It affects your lungs and there’s just no cure. I have the two nodules and they tell these workers that have these nodules that they’re just from the dirt and they have a workers’ monitoring program where they go in and check you and give you a physical and it’s not a very good physical, not for toxic chemicals. And so the company did an envivo on me and they found out that I have Neptune in my lungs and cesium in my lungs and tech 90 nines in my lungs. And each time they would do this, they would check my neck to see if it was getting any bigger or whatever and they would do my weight. So they were checking my body counts by the weight and this in vivo said that I have all this in it.
The only place I could get that in me was working there at the plant. And I now have a monitor that Dr. Michael Keer who does a lot testing. I’ve been doing samples and we do our own samples now. We don’t pay any attention to the plant. And so we are finding lots of offsite contamination. I have company records that says they have offsite contamination and they continue to lie. We’ve had representatives to come in for public meetings and they hold them on plant side, so we can’t go on plant side. And they use the workers as the community. And so we have no input. And now they have an SSAB board. And what’s really important for everyone is these commissioners and these city council people, they make a lot of decision behind your back. And we now have an SSAB board and they have commissioners and mayors and union people.
Everyone except the environmental people are not on that board. And so they’re making these office people that you vote in there are making decisions behind your back and giving ’em the company what they want. They give them that. They’re the ones that made the decision on those 12 waste cells. And we fought it for three years and then we didn’t want it. We had room full of people all the time and we thought we were winning. And then all of a sudden here, they come in trucking and making these waste cells and it looks just like a big swimming hole with a trash bag in it. And one thing they get worry about is beavers. Beavers can eat through that trash can wine liner. It’s a lot thicker than a trash can liner, but it’s still, beavers can go through it. And this plant is sitting on fractured bedrock and we’re in the yay. Here comes your bus. And
We’re sitting on fractured bedrock. We are in the earthquake zone, we’re in the flood zone, we’re in the tornado zone. We had a tornado that hit a little community about 10, 15, 20 miles from there with the winds up to 260 miles per hour. And you have all of these cylinders, 24,000 of depleted uranium cylinders giving off neutron exposures setting in this land. But I do have a petition over here. We’re trying to get on Rica right now. I have all four senators working, but they haven’t made up their mind about it, but they’re trying to get us added to the Rica. So if anyone would like to sign a petition, we would be so grateful.
David Pfister:
My name is David Pfister. I am the Western Pennsylvania organizer for Food and Water Watch based out of North side Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but grew up here in Chippewa Township. My parents live right over in Chippewa on the other side of the border. Hillary and I actually went to the same high school a couple years apart and I, but I’ve been thinking about this whole situation a lot just because it not only personally impacts me, but a lot of the people that I have come to be really good friends with doing a lot of work here around the Shell Plant in particular, which came online fully this past year and has been spewing toxic pollution into the atmosphere in Beaver County and in the region that whole time. I’m sorry y’all, it’s a little emotional because I’ve been here before. I was here with Hillary when the representatives from our EPA region came and said that they had nothing but inconclusive tests here
Speaker 16:
And said they weren’t going to come back and test anything
David Pfister:
Else. Yes, exactly. And had about as much to say on dioxins as the EPA currently do. They basically told the residents here in East Palestine with a straight face that everything was safe as far as they could tell. I’ve gotten to know people as they have come and talked time and time again. I’ve had the pleasure to work with Jamie and Christina and I met Chris at the Towson Toxic Tour When we are up here with you guys a couple months ago or a couple weeks ago, my sense of time is warped. I have a toddler. Yes, yes. But I’ve been coming to this town for years. I’ve gotten to know people here throughout my time growing up here and then coming back here as a activist and as a effective community member. And I just want to hold space for everybody’s hurt and their anger and their fear and their desperation. And I want you to be able to hold that and feel that because one of the things that’s most important is we grasp the emotional scope of what has happened here in this place because it continues to happen everywhere in this country
Because of the motives which everybody at this table has espoused previously, but also just because of the disconnectedness that we have inherited all of us here. And one of the most beautiful things about being here at this table with all of you, some of whom I’ve known for a while, some of whom I just met and seeing people here that I never expected to see, quite frankly people from other walks of life, is that every time that we come together in whatever size of a group, we fight back togetherness. The act of supporting one another is absolutely revolutionary in times like these. And I just want to hold space for that and to commend everybody for coming here and seeing this bearing witness to this feeling bearing witness to the pain that everybody’s going through here because it takes real bravery to come up and talk about what you’re going through. Time and time again, Jamie and Christina and Rob and Lori and all the other people that have continued to speak out, Hilary from an organizational capacity food and water watch works on these issues all over the country. Here in Pennsylvania, we work a lot on oil and gas site fight issues, which
Are inexorably tangled with these things because that natural gas is the feedstock for all those plastic pellets is the feedstock for all that vinyl chloride.
Speaker 16:
But they don’t want us.
David Pfister:
Exactly. All these sites are intertwined, as other people have said more eloquently than my fuzzy brain can get around right now. But our organization is committed to continuing to fight fracking here in Pennsylvania and committed toward holding Josh Shapiro accountable for the promises he made as Attorney General to implement common sense protections like mandatory setbacks. But we’re also going to stand here with you in East Palestine. We aren’t going anywhere and our organization is behind you 100%. Whatever we can do to continue to spread the word about what has happened here, we’re here. I’m really thankful for the chance to be here with y’all today, and I appreciate each and every one of you and I look forward to helping in whatever way that I can and we can organizationally. Thank you.
Speaker 25:
I want to give a little context for why I’m here, and I’m not saying it to be like look at the work that we did, but I’m saying it because it’s really exciting to be here with a bunch of unions and environmental activists and residents and people who are from a lot of different walks of life that at least in my work I’m told we’re on the different, we’re in opposition to one another. And I just really appreciate this moment because it’s very clear that we aren’t. And so I just want to speak a little bit to my organization, did a little bit of relief work in East Palestine last year, shortly after the derailment, Jamie was the first person I met. I showed up to a public meeting and she was handing out flyers and I was like, I want to help hand out flyers and quickly met a lot of different residents and we ended up raising a little over $70,000 to get air purifiers into households for folks who weren’t able to leave or chose not to leave in order to do what we can to decontaminate indoor living spaces because that wasn’t happening.
And something that wasn’t lost on me was that when I put up a flag in Pittsburgh that said, folks need water, folks need funds, folks need cleaning supplies that aren’t chemically based. Folks need trash bags. Folks need PPE, we don’t know what we’re dealing with. We need people to have respirators. It was rank and file union members who showed up. It was folks like Robin and David who showed up. It was folks who had family from the region who showed up. And there were a lot of us hippie environmentalists too who showed up, but it was working class people who showed up for one another. Like I said, I didn’t have anything planned to say. So I think I’ll just thank folks and point out folks like Mike Stout, who I get, I look up to a lot because I don’t want to say, I try to be like Mike, because I can’t rock your style, man, but you got a foot in the union world and you have a foot in environmentalist world, and we need more people like that. And I share space with you sometimes, and I try to do a little bit of what you do, and I know we’re getting it from both directions. A lot of times we want to show up in solidarity unions and they go, you’re the ones who are killing our jobs. And we show up to environmentalists and we say, we got to support this union fight. And they go, those are the folks polluting our neighborhoods. And it’s like there’s one enemy in all that, and it’s the boss.
And I know Melanie experiences the same thing in Clariton, where the Coke works there is poisoning her community, and you knock doors there and you have residents saying, well, if the plant goes away, all the jobs are going to go away. But we all know that how many people in Clariton work at that plant anymore less than? And we also know that the Mon Valley, right, black working class communities, those are the folks who comprise other unions in the building services like SEIU 32 bj, right? And so you got union members working in a shop that’s polluting other union members’ homes and for some reason we’re we are supposed to be at each other’s throats when it’s the same politicians and the same corporations who are pitting us against each other and we’re all getting screwed. And so I just want to say thank you to Chris and all the different union brothers and sisters who came out.
I just want to say Robin and David and I are really annoying in spaces with our colleagues and Zach too because we, it’s true. We do our best to bring folks from our industry what it is. We are workers to bring folks from our industries to picket lines to do what we can to pass the hat for strike funds. And I’m just really happy to build connections with folks today as much as I can because a lot of you all were saying and sharing your wisdom, it is one fight for a good life and we can do it together. And this is a really good first step. Also, shout out to, I dunno why I’m thanking everybody. I feel a lot of gratitude. Also shout out to Steve and all the folks from the Union Progress and the News Guild because y’all have been the most consistent coverage in the region for East Palestine.
They covered every fundraising event that we did and every pub and every little backyard event that we had to raise a couple hundred dollars here and there to put an air purifier into a home. And that’s why it’s not why we did it, it’s the right thing to do. But that’s one of the reasons that we came out on the strike lines at two or three in the morning to stop those trucks. That’s why we helped raise strike funds and split funds at the event at Bottle Rocket. So I just really appreciate y’all. I love to see the different, I feel very privileged to be able to look at people and know the connections of how they got here. And that just feels amazing to me. So I know that it sucks why we’re, and it’s not okay why we’re here, but there’s a lot of power and wisdom here, and I just really appreciate you all sharing it with everyone. But with me, so
Speaker 12:
Person, maybe we can give a baby a hand to the brothers and sisters and siblings from
Maximillian Alvarez:
Iowa. I was in the house. They made it these poor
Speaker 5:
Solidarity.
Maximillian Alvarez:
Solidarity. These poor folks were broke down on the side of the road at four in the morning and they made it here. And this event would not have happened without them either. And I just wanted to let folks know they also brought sodas. So if you want more soda, I’m bringing it over there. And the great penny logs in has the signup sheets that people were asking for earlier. So if you want to sign up, you want to be part of this, you want to stay up to date, please sign up here. And also if you want to sign on as a supporter of the campaign to Pressure Biden, to invoke the Stafford Ag, you can sign on here.
Nicole Fabricant:
Hey, y’all great to be here. I want to say that Baltimore, both labor and EJ stand with East Palestine and we will be in this struggle alongside you guys. So I have been organizing for 13, 14 years in Baltimore, an overburdened community that has 70 plus industries and the highest respiratory illnesses in the country. CSX is our big enemy in Baltimore. And so that’s what brought me to Hillary. And a lot of the folks in East Palestine, we have been watching coal trains run through our community. We know that CSX and Norfolk Southern own the largest coal export pier on the East coast, and they are making so much money, $8 billion right off of housing their coal in a neighborhood that has 70 plus industries. So we’ve been organizing with young people, with high school students who have been in this for a very long time, and older residents in the community who are fed up with industry kind of railroading right over them.
And so that’s what brought me to East Palestine was thinking about capital being borderless and how do our movements become borderless? How do we build across state boundaries? How do we think about these as interconnected issues, not independent silos. We need to weave this fabric together to build a much broader movement as our brothers from the unions talked about reclaiming nationalizing rail. We need to put Alan Shaw and the CEO of CSX in the Hague. We need prison for white collar crime. We do it for young, poor, brown and black folks are feeding our Carceral system. The same needs to go for corporate rail and every other corporate entity that’s in these communities making a profit off of brown and black in a place like Baltimore communities. So we came a few weeks ago with organizers from Baltimore to say, we stand with you guys and we’ll show up.
We’ll continue to show up, and we want to build, we want to think about how do we take on these billion dollar corporations and what does it look like to cross race, to cross class, to cross regions and to see not just the struggles but these fossil economies as interconnected, right? I think it was so appropriate to talk about vinyl chloride as connected to plastics. We are fighting for zero waste burning plastics in Baltimore. Our incinerator are killing people. So we are connected, but they don’t want us to be. And so I think part of it is not just the education and consciousness raising, but figuring out how we can grow this movement. So I’m honored to be here. The stories have stuck with me since I sat and listened, Denise Palestine, I can’t sleep at night thinking about it and how we continue to build with you guys. So thanks.
Thank you.
Hilary Flint:
Hi everyone. My name is Hilary Flint. I am build on the schedule as an environmentalist, but I would just say that I’m a human being. I was diagnosed with kidney cancer in my late twenties, and it was something that made me look and go, Hey, how does this happen? And that’s really where I got to where I am today. Maybe not how I was affected by the derailment, but what got me interested in the environment. And I went down this whole campaign of why, right? Going to all your different doctors and talking to everyone and saying, why did this happen to me? And we did testing and we found out that I had a gene mutation, which had been in my family for generations, but it had never been triggered this early. So then I had a new question, why was it triggered this early?
And so I went to all the best geneticists I could find, and they told me environmental reasons. So then I go, well, what they is it? And they go, oh, we can’t tell you that we don’t know. And so I became a detective and I started looking at everything around me, everything I consume, everything that passes by. And that’s when I really started getting concerned about the petrochemical industry in my region. So I’m from Enon Valley, Pennsylvania, which is just over the border less than four miles from where the train derailed. And that’s in Beaver County where we have a growing plastics industry. So we have the shell ethane cracker plant that came online just over a year ago. We have another plastics plant, styro pec that is the Ohio River. We have a nuclear power plant, which adds just a whole bunch of fun to that.
And we’re also, beaver County is the Norfolk Southern Hub, the railroad hub, Conway Rail yards. So when Norfolk Southern had a trained rail in the area in Beaver County, people don’t want to talk about it because so many of our families are employed by Norfolk Southern. Even a lot of our firefighters locally also work for Norfolk Southern. And so it’s been a special challenge. Everything about my life has changed since the derailment. I live in a different state. I have a different job. I have different hobbies, which are now actually none. So I always say I’ve grown up in the middle. I’ve always been in the middle. And I don’t mean the middle class. I mean someone who’s bridging between two worlds. So I am a resident, but now I am also an environmentalist apparently. And something about being someone who lives in the middle, you learn how to work with different types of people, and that’s a huge positive, but you also never fit into either side.
And it causes a lot of interpersonal conflict, right? Because never 100% this or 100% that. And it gives me opportunities to be in different spaces that people on the other side aren’t in and don’t get to go in and it’s not fair. And so this has been probably the most emotional year of my life because I have to be the conduit between residents and people that can help residents and sometimes those people don’t. And so I am the don’t shoot the messenger type of person, and it’s really challenging. And I have the privilege of now being able to work in this work and get paid to do that. And that’s something that anyone here who can employ an affected resident on your staff, that is what you need to do. You don’t need to hire academics who talk about these problems as a concept. You need to hire people like Jamie Wallace.
You need to hire the people that live it and the people that can explain it. And you need to give them the resources that make them, they’re already great organizers, but you need to give them the resources so they can continue the job because people get tired. And that’s a real thing. Burnout’s a real thing. And I’m so blessed to have met Melanie Mead, who always checks in on me and she asks me what I’m doing for self care. And usually Nikki’s students a couple of weeks ago had asked me that, what do you do for self-care? And I laughed and everyone in the room was like, that’s kind of nerd. That’s not good. You’re not going to stay in the fight. So I’ve really made an active decision on what keeps me in this fight, what keeps me going. And sometimes it’s not the thing that gets me the most friends, and sometimes it’s not the people that sometimes I just have to put my head down and say, I have to do the work.
I have to do the work. I have to do the work. And the hardest part is that the relationships are the work. My friend Andrew Wooer has told me that when the many times where I’ve cried on the phone to him and said, I’m just so tired. I don’t want to talk about the emotions. I don’t want to talk about my family and what my family’s gone through. I just want to do the work to get us all out of that. I don’t want to sit in this space and cry. I’ve learned that unfortunately, the crying is part of the work, which is tough, but being an environmentalist in this area is particularly challenging too. As you had mentioned, we want things in concept, but when they’re brought to us in reality, we don’t vote for those things because they don’t align with the party that we support and why we support certain things.
That’s a whole other long historical conversation. But being the person who has to then go to these politicians and explain what we’re seeing and why we’re seeing that and kind of playing that uncomfortable middle person, it is a real challenge. And it’s something that environmentalists do often because as everyone on this panel knows, we work with affected residents and we have to sit there and we have to do toxic tours. And I never thought I’m a toxic tour host now. It’s something I do almost every month. I host people, whether it’s Washington County, whether it’s Towson University, people from the Gulf South, the Permian Basin, and it’s a whole type of tourism I never expected to be in. But that’s the important work because now I can look around this room and see different people that I’ve met at different events from different states and different regions, different industries, and that’s the beautiful thing.
But what we didn’t have was power. And we’ve been actively in building that in a manner that I wish it was faster. But I think this is what’s sustainable for us to again, be in the work. So really, the only thing I can say is, again, please hire affected residents. Please listen to them. Please don’t hire people to talk about stories like Jamie or Christina or Laurie or Darren, hire them. That is what I want to get across to the environmental movement in general too. You can train and you can go to school and things like that, but it’s the people that live it who are the working class who really know how to solve our problems. And so when we can come together with different members of working class, we might be working in different facilities, but we’re all working towards the same thing.
So the thing that I want to really say is just continue uplifting resident voices. Keep them in the rooms of planning. Call them when you have media opportunities and keep building power and telling these stories so that next year when we have an event like this, which I hope we don’t have to do like this, maybe it’ll be more social, but that way this room has even more people from more places and more walks of life. And that’s really the work that in East Palestine we’re doing right now is continuing to build power. Because what we’ve learned is talking to our elected officials is done. I sat down with the president of the United States last month. It didn’t get me anywhere. It’s another promise for another day, for another meeting, for another. No. Now the way that we show them is that we come with more people. And every meeting it’s more people and more power, and that’s how we move the needle. It’s not a conversation with an elected official. It’s an elected official seeing you bring the power to them. And so that’s what we’ll continue to do here today. And I want to thank everyone for being here. We really appreciate it.
Vina Colley:
I want to make sure that everyone here sticks together. The groups watch for people to come in and make you all fight. That happens. They pass rumors, and so you don’t stick together. You got to stick together to win this watch out. Don’t let agency for toxic substance and disease and CDC, because all their studies are inconclusive by design. They’re not your friends. They’re a government agency. We’ve dealt with them now twice.
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<title>Technocapitalism: Our dystopian present—and future?</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/technocapitalism-our-dystopian-present-and-future</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Hedges]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Fri, 19 Apr 2024 16:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[The Chris Hedges Report]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Economy]]></category>
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<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="CEO and founder of Amazon Jeff Bezos participates in a discussion during a Milestone Celebration dinner September 13, 2018 in Washington, DC. Economic Club of Washington celebrated its 32nd anniversary at the event. Photo by Alex Wong/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Blockchain, AI, and other technological innovations could be used to improve human flourishing. Instead they're making the oligarchy richer and more powerful at all of our expense.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="CEO and founder of Amazon Jeff Bezos participates in a discussion during a Milestone Celebration dinner September 13, 2018 in Washington, DC. Economic Club of Washington celebrated its 32nd anniversary at the event. Photo by Alex Wong/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1032942366-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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We are living through an incipient technological revolution. AI, blockchain, cryptocurrencies, commercial space travel, and other innovations are rapidly transforming everything from the workplace to the financial architecture of the global economy. While many of these technologies hold vast potential to benefit the social good, the multinational corporations and financial oligarchy that drive innovation and own its products are solely motivated by private profit. The consequences are unfolding all around us. As technology and the power of the oligarchy advances, the misery and disenfranchisement of the majority grows. We are now in an age of “Space Barons and Techtitans,” and the future they are leading us to is one of even greater exploitation, inequality, and ecological crisis. Loretta Napoleoni, author of <a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/734493/technocapitalism-by-loretta-napoleoni/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Technocapitalism: The Rise of the New Robber Barrons and the Fight for the Common Good</a>, joins The Chris Hedges Report to discuss the technocapitalist present and future described in her book.
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Studio Production: David Hebden, Adam Coley, Cameron Granadino Post-Production: Adam Coley
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Chris Hedges:
A small group of high-tech savvy entrepreneurs who understand the velocity of technological innovation have harnessed this new power to establish predatory high-tech monopolies, such as Uber or Amazon. They subvert labor laws, strip the state of its power, gut regulation, ignore legal norms and amass personal fortunes in the hundreds of billions of dollars. Their apps, services, and private equity firms dominate our lives. They are technological predators seen in every aspect of social existence commodification. The living wages of working people decline. The gig economy abolishes job protections, sustainable incomes and benefits. AI replaces human beings. The most vulnerable are pillaged for profit. The sick feed the profits for big pharma. The bodies of poor men and women on the streets of our bleak.
De-industrialized cities feed the profits of the prison industrial complex. They’re worth nothing until they are locked in a cage in the world’s largest prison system generating between 50 or $60,000 a year fed, of course, to the privatized phone services, the money transfer services, the commissary, and the medical services that have privatized American prisons. Utilities sold to private companies gouge us with overpriced water, electrical, parking, and sewage bills. At the same time, we are the most watched, photographed, spied upon and monitored population in human history. This technology far from improving our lives is creating a new serfdom, if not a new slavery, all the while propelling us at a dizzying rate towards Ecocide.
Joining me to discuss our dystopian present and most probably our dystopian future is Loretta Napoleoni, author of Technocapitalism: The Rise of the New Robber Barons and the Fight for the Common Good. So let’s begin. You open the book with Bitcoin, cryptocurrency and I am very weak on that, so I told you you’ll have to hold my hand through it, but you really cite it as extremely important in the emerging societies in which we are going to live. So, I’ll let you just start and explain what they are and why they’re so important.
Loretta Napoleoni:
Well, basically, Bitcoin can be described as the currency of the people. I mean, for a start, let’s distinguish between Bitcoin and all the other cryptocurrencies. So Bitcoin is the first one. It was given to the world by an anonymous individual or group of individuals called Satoshi Nakamoto, and it was put into the cyber universe exactly at the time of the big crash, right after the Lehman Brothers crash. So the timing was perfect, which makes us think that perhaps whoever Nakamoto is, is somebody from the system, that knows very well how the system works.
What is really Bitcoin? Bitcoin is a currency which is produced by software, and this software performs all the task that a true currency should perform. So we’re not talking about the US dollars. We’re not talking about the pound or currency. They’re constantly devalued because of inflation, but we’re talking about the all style currency that was linked to gold and it was produced and it was in circulation according to the rules of the gold standards, which of course were very few for a very short time.
So Bitcoin is produced by software. So it’s not controlled by any central bank, it’s not controlled by any governments. The software has been programmed in a way in which these Bitcoin are released in blocks by an activity, which is called mining, and this activity is solution of mathematical formulas. The solution of mathematical formulas becomes increasingly more and more difficult. Now, why is that? Because whoever created this currency wants to guarantee a scarcity. So there is a limited number of Bitcoin that will be produced, which is 21 million. The time scale is going to be a century and a half almost, and the timing has to be every 10 minutes a block is produced. The timing and all of this structure is guaranteed by the difficulties of solving the mathematical formula. So this is quite complex, complex system which initially was not really understood.
At the very, very beginning, kids used to solve the mathematical formula like with skates, that kind of stuff, and then used the Bitcoin for various things. There’s an interesting story of somebody that bought a pizza using your Bitcoins, for example. But as we went through the financial crisis, it became increasingly clear the Bitcoin was an alternative to the fiat currencies, which clearly after 2008 had lost their meaning. Most of the bailout, for example, that was given to the banks was produced by clicking a few keys on the treasury computer. So in other words, money doesn’t exist. So this is the issue that Bitcoin trying to address to create a currency that will give you that stability and trust and will not be controlled by anybody else.
So the controlling system is all based upon the people that participate in the system. So you download your software from a computer, which is of course free for everybody. You start investing. You become a member of the Bitcoin community, and you are the one together with all the others that will evaluate the various activities that are taking place. So everything that happened is right there, is transparent, is in the clear. The solution, even the mathematical solution of the formula, and this is very important, once somebody manages to solve the formula and so a block is released, the entire community of people who are connected, so they’re part of the Bitcoin community, has to approve that solution.
So this is called proof of work. So it is quite complex to do it because we’re talking about millions of people. This is why Ethereum, which is another cryptocurrency came after Bitcoin, decided not to use the approval work, but to use a limited amount of people that would actually evaluate if that solution was right or not, but I disagree with that. I think if it’s the currency of the people should be in control, the control should be among the people.
So that’s more or less is… Oh, yeah. Then there is the other thing which is about to happen by the way, because in April, well, between the end of March to the beginning of May, there will be the halving. So every about four years, so every 21,000 blocks which are released, the number of blocks, the number of Bitcoins contained in the block is reduced in half. So at the very beginning, it was 50 bitcoins. Today we’re at 6.75. And then in a few months after the halving will be at 3.75. So that is a mechanism in place in order to guarantee that the Bitcoin is not inflated, and also to guarantee that whoever is using the Bitcoin does not use it for speculation.
Chris Hedges:
How widely used is it?
Loretta Napoleoni:
Well, at the moment, Bitcoin is widely used. We just got the approval for Bitcoin by the FDA. So basically every single big bank is using Bitcoin for investment, trading, the Bitcoins into the open. So this kind of recognition was very, very important. Now there was a reluctance, of course, to do that, but in the end they had to accept that the popularity of the Bitcoin is a reality. So finance, if they can make money for something, they will go and make the money and there are money to be made, of course, in Bitcoin. But the key issue here is the fact that Bitcoin is a threat to the currencies in circulation in every single state, so the US dollars or…
Bitcoin is a transnational currency, so it’s a currency that you can use everywhere, but it is a threat to the monopoly, to the monetary monopoly of the central bank, and that is why they try to stop it, but they couldn’t stop it. They couldn’t even put it out of law. They have done it with other currencies before because the software… I mean, you can’t put the software on trial, right? They don’t know who Satoshi Nakamoto is, so they can’t arrest them. Of course, the community of the Bitcoin holders is the people so you can’t stop the people from doing it. At the end of the day, money is based on an act of faith. You trust that the US dollar is worth something. In fact, in the US dollar it says in God we trust, meaning it’s a bit of [inaudible 00:12:23].
Chris Hedges:
Let’s talk about all the cryptocurrency fraud, the queen of cryptocurrency from Bulgaria, you write about her in the book. There’s also a lot of people have been fleeced in this digital currency world.
Loretta Napoleoni:
At the very beginning, again, we’re talking about Bitcoin, so Bitcoin was the first one, and then a few years later we got other currencies. The OneCoin, the one I talk about, Bulgaria clearly was a fraud and a scam. So looking at Bitcoin, even Bitcoin was used for illegal activity, was used in the Silk Road, for example, in the Darknet. Now, why was that? Because, I mean, it was a mean of exchange. There was no control and nobody knew really how traceable Bitcoin is, but once this became clear… Because what I have not explained to you is that every single block which is released is then logged into a blockchain. So the moment in which the proof of work is approved, that block becomes part of a chain. Inside that blockchain, we have all the information about the block, so who solved the formula, at what time and so on and so forth.
Let’s call it block number five. Okay. Every single time the Bitcoin contains in block number five are sold, purchase, halve, you can sell halve of it, for example, and keep that halve, everything is put in another block which is attached to that block. So let’s call it block 5A, and it stays right there. You can’t delete it. You can alter. That’s the blockchain technology which is behind the Bitcoin. So every single moment you can go into the software and see the life of every single Bitcoin was produced from day one, was in January 2009. So once this was understood, then the Bitcoin became one of the worst currency to use for illegal activity because you can trace it every single moment.
Now, if you want to do money laundering, for example, of course, you will have to move the Bitcoin from one of the blocks. Let’s say you have done some activities illegal and you’re been paid in bitcoins, so nobody has seen that from the point of view of the authorities, but the moment in which you want to change that Bitcoin into a currency, right? Because you do need to money launder those money. What are you going to do with the Bitcoin? Otherwise, it’s not sits there. That in that moment, then that is going to be registered automatically into the block. So this is how the monetary authorities but also the anti-terrorism, the anti-drug squads have unveiled several of these activities used through Bitcoin and of course, they have arrested people. So today actually Bitcoin is one of the least used currency because most of the illegal activity and criminal activity is actually done in cash because cash is still king when it comes down to traceability.
Chris Hedges:
Well, let’s talk about the fraud, I mean, because these cryptocurrency empires have a pretty rapidly deflated.
Loretta Napoleoni:
Well, the FTX, I think is the best possible example, but then again, it is not the cryptocurrency per se. Again, I want to distinguish between Bitcoin and the other cryptocurrencies because I’m a great believer of Bitcoin but not a believer in the other cryptos because Bitcoin is the only one that has this kind of system that I explained to you. The others are much more loose. But in any case, I mean, the FTX story is very significant because how did it happen? Well, Sam Bankman-Fried was a trader, I mean, was one of those intelligent mathematical kids and he was trading and then all of a sudden he discover that there were discrepancies in arbitrage between one place, another place. In other words, if you bought Bitcoin in Tokyo, you actually got a better rate than if you bought Bitcoins in New York.
Now, this is at the very beginning, so we’re talking about seven or eight years ago. So he thought, “Well, great, let’s exploit these differences,” and he made quite a lot of money. Then at that point, he decided that he was going to create an exchange. Basically, the exchange was doing what he was doing, so making money out of the discrepancies in prices due to the geographical position. But then it started to produce its own cryptocurrency, which of course was out of nowhere. I mean, it was not Bitcoin. It was that it didn’t have a software system. Just one day he decided, “Well, I’m going to issue this currency.” People started flocking and wanting to buy, especially celebrities.
Now, the guy was very popular among celebrities. This is another thing also this sort of tech titans is that they live in a ghetto, which is the super rich ghetto and everybody wants to make even more money using the expertise and knowledge of one another. So he start getting hundreds of millions from various people in order to invest in on exchange. He took the money, of course, in dollars or other currencies, and in exchange he gave them cryptocurrency. So basically the participation exchange was based upon exchange at the end of the day, dollars for this cryptocurrency.
Now, why did they buy this cryptocurrencies? Why did they do that? Well, because they thought that it was so smart and that they idea of the crypto exchange was so incredibly appealing that they thought, “I get today the cryptocurrency that is producing at an exchange of,” let’s say, “one-to-one to the dollar, and then you carry on making so much money, then it’s cryptocurrency is going to go up in value, and so it’s going to be more two to the dollar and I’ll be doubling immediately all my money.” Okay. So it’s a scam, but it is also a scam that was supported by people who participated into the scam, who were the victims of the scam, because it’s the classic story of people that come to you and say, “Oh, if you give me this money, I’m going to invest in that. You’ll double your money.”
Chris Hedges:
Does all of this threaten the hegemony of the dollar? Because of course, the power of the dollar is that it is the world’s reserve currency and once it loses that hegemony, it is going to be catastrophic to the American financial system.
Loretta Napoleoni:
Yeah, I think it’s going to be catastrophic not only to the financial system, but it’s going to be catastrophic also to the power of the state. So imagine a world, where you do not have anymore currencies, but you only have Bitcoin or something similar to the Bitcoin. So software will produce it and then your people will control it. So how is the state going to be able to print billions and billions of dollars to save the financial sector from yet another crisis? That would be impossible because the state won’t be in control of the Bitcoin. Okay. But also how would the state print the money to finance the war in the Ukraine? Because of course, the state will not have control over the money supply. Money is key. Money supply is the pillar, the biggest pillar of power or political power.
This is what the cyberpunk… At the very beginning in the book, I started the book with the story of the cyberpunk group of computer scientists in the Bay Area in the 1980s and these people wanted to guarantee the protection of the individual inside the net, so to prevent the state from controlling the net and from spying on people on the net also. They produce a cryptographic system to guarantee the people will be able to talk to each other without being spied by the state, but they couldn’t possibly, I mean, produce a way in which people would not have to use banks to do transactions because there was the real barrier.
If you want to buy something, you got to buy it through a bank, through a credit card, and you have to pay through a currency which is, of course, control by state. And then came Satoshi Nakamoto, but he came 20 years later. So I think this is the real threat now. That’s explained also why the state is now trying to produce its own digital currency, which is not a crypto, but it is considered like crypto. So they’re trying to catch up, but I am a firm believer that this potentially… If bitcoins really take off, this potentially could change the structure of the nation state.
Chris Hedges:
Let’s talk about crypto-anarchy and then you mentioned Julian Assange, and I just want you to play out his opposition to the crypto-anarchists.
Loretta Napoleoni:
Well, so the crypto-anarchists are… So the cyberpunks was a group of computer scientists all from the US. The only one that was not from the US was Julian Assange. Now, it was a very strange group of people because I mean, they were connected through technology, so they were all very much pioneers in the computer science, but politically they were very different. So there was a very strong group of libertarians, for example, I mean, the classic American libertarians where the state should not have anything to do with me, I can look after myself, that kind of stuff.
But there were also people, they were quite, I wouldn’t say necessarily right wing, but almost intellectually racist because these people were very smart, but also I think some of these people have serious social problem of interaction. They were on the spectrum of Asperger. Anyway, so part of this group was talking about a sort of supremacy of the smart guys over the people. So they were considering the people as a sort of inferior kind of groups that had to be ruled, they had to be directed, that they did not have the same kind of understanding of what’s right and what’s wrong that they did. Now, Assange was very much against that.
They had a mailing list, which was a mailing list where people would exchange. We’re talking about still at the time, which there was CompuServe, so very before we had the internet as we have it today and the mail system. So they had this mail system where they could talk to each other and exchange ideas and proposals. Within this mailing list, it was all cryptographic, so only them that could see it. There was a very heated exchange and discussion between this group of crypto-anarchists, if you want to call them, and Assange who instead said, “This is an instrument through which we can empower the people. The people should know. The people should be allowed to make decisions.” And then Assange went on, of course, to create WikiLeaks, which did exactly that.
Chris Hedges:
What did the rest do? Because they became, as you call them, the new robber barons. You have examples in there. Uber is a good example. But they harnessed this technology to essentially carry out vast campaigns of pillage and greed against the rest of us.
Loretta Napoleoni:
Well, I mean. We have several examples. Now, in all fairness, most of the robber barons were not part of the cyberpunk mailing list necessarily, although several of them, especially the founders, they became immensely rich because, of course, they were in the industry at the very beginning. So they stopped working, taking away several millions of dollars so they could do whatever they wanted. But I would say that the robber barons is very much the generation that comes right after people like Assange. In fact, there are some of them, they’re younger, 10 years, not very much, but these are the one who came to this kind of business through video games.
So, forget about politics. See, now, we have the very beginning, the internet was considered an instrument of empowering people and also bring about democracy into the society. Then a decade later, we have kids who have grown up playing video games who actually know the functioning of the internet extremely well, and they spot certain kind of situations where being computer-savvy, knowing how to code, because that’s the other thing, could create a business model that could enrich them immensely. And then they started. So the first wave made quite a lot of money, sold their businesses, and then they became the so-called serial entrepreneurs.
What is the serial entrepreneur? Well, this is robber baron basically because they spotted an opportunity. They learned from that opportunity. They made a lot of money from that opportunity, and then they decided to reproduce that model in another sector at the higher and higher and higher scale. Now, all of this was motivated by profit. So there’s absolutely no desire to produce anything that can enrich society. This is why I’m talking about the common good. Possibly, this is due to the fact that these people grew up with video games, so for them it’s all a game. See what I mean? That there is this filter of the internet, which doesn’t really make them understand exactly what does it mean to be exploited, or exploited, I would say by the system, but possibly also because of their ego, because all of a sudden being a serial entrepreneur, being Jeff Bezos for example, or being Elon Musk or Peter Thiel was of the maximum that you could achieve, so everything was allowed to you because you were… Except those original members of the cyberpunk because you are smarter than the others.
Chris Hedges:
But they’re not smarter. They’re smarter in terms of technology. There’s a wonderful short story by Stefan Zweig about the world chess champion, and everybody thinks because he’s the world chess champion, he’s wise about everything else. The conceit of the story is that he’s sort of an idiot about everything else. I think you do a pretty good job of exposing, especially figures like Elon Musk, and you get into the whole space industry are kind of idiots. What they do know how to do is harness this new technology to exploit.
So, just let’s give some examples. First, I want you to talk about blockchains, and then I want you to give the example of Uber because it’s kind of a classic example of how that technology is used as a bait at the beginning and then a form of really horrific oppression by the time it’s cemented into place in terms of timing and exclusion and all that kind of stuff. But talk about blockchains and then just talk about the case of Uber.
Loretta Napoleoni:
Well, I mean, okay, blockchain is what we have in Bitcoins. So potentially actually blockchain could change completely the way we interact at commercial level. It also could make obsolete phenomenal amount of work. So now we’re all talking about, yes, AI is going to make lots of people out of work, which is absolutely true, but the blockchain comes before AI. So let’s say you don’t need anymore to have a lawyer if you have these contracts, which are smart contracts, whereby the contract states that if certain circumstances are verifying, for example, a divorce, then automatically the division of wealth is going to be such, and this is signed and done, and that stays in the blockchain, so can verify they was done a certain date. Then the situation verifies, and then here you are, you’re not going to court, you’re not doing any because you already have the agreement in place. Now, this is a very simple example.
But blockchain also could be applied to smart cars. So here you are, eventually, you can have a driverless car, which through a smart contract will go by itself, will drive itself for a change of oil after a certain number of miles and go to the mechanic. They will do the change of oil or maybe the robot, they will do the change of oil, and pay automatically, because in the smart contract, which is again in the blockchain, you will have all of this information. When the certain number of miles will be reached that verifies, then all of this is going to happen. I mean, that’s what blockchain could do, and the same thing is for voting.
Now, it can be positive. It can be negative. It all depends. This is the issue. The issue is all of this technology can be immensely, immensely positive for us provided it’s put in the hands of the people for the common good. Well, of course, it is controlled by a limited number of individuals. Here we go to Uber, because at the end of the day, the concept of Uber, which by the way, the story is quite interesting because the guy, one of the two founders of Uber, he’s a Canadian and he sold his first startup for quite a lot of money and then he moved to San Francisco where he was working for the company that actually boat his original startup, but he was doing nothing, right?
So he was going clubbing every night in San Francisco and he was watching James Bond movies. So this is the kind of people were talking about, okay, these kids. So anyway, while he was watching Casino Royale, he sees that James Bond is calling his car with the smartphone through a map to come and pick him up at the casino. So at that point, he has this idea to create a system that would use the smartphone and the maps that Google had just put on the market in order to call a cab a night after going clubbing. Now, the problem was that you couldn’t find cabs because it was a shortage of cabs in San Francisco. So yes, the idea to use rental cars, the blue cars, the one that you can rent, what we call in the UK Minicabs, and put them on a map so that you could interact in the map and call them and see who is available and blah, blah, blah. So this is how he got the idea. And then eventually, he did develop the first Uber app, thanks to the technology.
Now, of course, he knew the technology because he was somebody who understood technology or knowledge of technology. The Minicab company in the UK that were doing that kind of service did not know the technology, so they couldn’t do it. They couldn’t do the app themselves. Now, today, everybody has the app, but we’re talking about a time in which really was a great idea. And then he had this idea that why using these cars, why not using normal cars? Why not using normal people so people can make an extra back basically driving people around through the app? Initially, it was very appealing to the drivers and to the passengers because it put together… So it was a system where he put together two people that were happy to do business together. I mean, the drivers were all self-employed, so they got a good return for their work, but then as the system developed, everything changed because of greed, of course. So Uber starts taking more and more and more percentage out of the driver, and then it start conditioning the driver also, forcing the driver to accept certain rides.
Chris Hedges:
Well, and punishing the driver if they don’t. I think in the book, they have 15 minutes or something, and if they don’t accept, then they can’t even get work.
Loretta Napoleoni:
Yeah, exactly. Then if you do not accept, I think it’s three rides in a row, you are locked out for 24 hours or for 24 hours. But you see, I mean, I was in Calgary just now and I was picked up by Uber driver and this guy was telling me that he had lost his job. I think he was from West Africa. He had family, a new baby, another child. The wife was not working, had lost his job, and he was doing Uber driving just to integrate salary, but now he was driving all the time. He was telling me that the situation hasn’t changed at all. I mean, Uber takes a big, big cut out of every single ride. I asked him, I said, “Well, why don’t you go and work for a taxi company?” He said, “There aren’t taxi companies.”
See, that’s the other thing because Uber has driven out of the market in certain places, not everywhere, in certain places, all the competition. Now, that is another element of what I talk about the book. These people have been able to create oligopolistic position for themselves and the few other people like them who actually can master technology kicking out everybody else. Now, that should not happen because this is again competition policy, but the only place where they’re trying actually to stop them and to implement competition law is the EU. In the US, it’s completely wild market.
Chris Hedges:
Well, they also skirt laws, labor laws, regulations. Because they’re a new technology, there’s no real oversight and they exploit it. There’s a lot in the book. I just want to close because you do at the end of the book with SpaceX space exploration and eco side, but here’s where you really lay out how technologically these people are quite gifted, but in terms of understanding reality, the world around them, and of course, what we face in a moment of climate catastrophe, they’re utterly clueless. You really make that point around this whole idea that we’re all going to live on Mars or something. So, let’s close-
Loretta Napoleoni:
Isn’t absurd?
Chris Hedges:
Of course, it’s completely absurd, but let’s talk about it because they don’t think it’s absurd. I mean, you actually write the physics of what being in a situation with zero gravity does to your… It destroys your body. I mean, it’s not even sustainable. But go ahead, I’ll let you talk.
Loretta Napoleoni:
Well, I mean, it took me a long time to write that section. I had to have doctors working for me to make understand because, okay, so Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos come across as if they know it all. Because you think if these people become billionaires, of course, I must believe what they’re saying. Well, it’s not because it’s absolutely not true. Now, the reason why they’re talking about going to Mars, colonized, being a multi-planetary civilization and stuff is because that kind of thought appeals to people, because people like to dream about us being able to conquer the universe.
So through that appeal, then they can get the real objective, which is basically to colonize the low Earth orbit. Now, the only place where the human body can live in space for a limited still amount of time, so we’re talking maximum one year with massive exercises to reduce the bond density phenomenon due to the lack of gravity, it is the low Earth orbit because the low Earth orbit still has a little bit of gravity, so you’re not completely out of gravity. So the reason why they want to colonize the low Earth orbit is because this is where the business of the future is going to be done. I mean, forget about the Moon, forget about the asteroids.
I mean, even if in a future not too far away, we could go and mine asteroids, you will have to do it with robots and the robots will have to live from the low Earth orbit. So that will be the center of distribution of activity in order to mine space. But for now, the reason why they want to colonize the low Earth orbit is because of telecommunication. So because they put satellites there and then here we are, they will mine our data, suck our brains basically through their satellites. There are places already in the world, like you go to the north of Canada, the very north of Canada where there’s no internet. The only internet is Starlink. So Elon Musk is the only one who provides internet there places in the Pacific, in the Atlantic, or there is no internet. So you can get very good internet through Starlink.
Now, another thing I want to add is why is this data so important? Everybody says, “Oh yes, data is how they managed to manipulate elections.” Well, the truth is the data with AI now is also going to be the fundamental factors of the future of warfare. Without that data, you’re not going to be able to go to war anymore. Whoever is going to have the most amount of data, because this is how AI actually improves, is going to have a distinctive advantage over all the others. So I think that again, they are a step ahead of us, but they’re also step ahead of governments, and the reason why they’re a step ahead of us and governments is because most people and most governments do not even bother understanding what the technological revolution is all about.
So it is our fault, and that’s what I say in the book, we got to wake up from it. I mean, we’re sleepwalking. This is the end of the book. I said, “We’re sleepwalking into dystopia and we don’t even realize.” We think everything is fantastic because we can see each other on Instagram, we can talk to each other on Facebook, and we do not understand. So I hope that this is what the book does to just teach a little bit about technology and help people waking up.
Chris Hedges:
Well, because it goes back to Plato’s cave, they have quite effectively mesmerized us on the apps and the screens while in a very real way, not just financially, but also in terms of you have a section on what it takes to produce an electric car. By the time you’re done, your carbon emissions are, I think you write that producing fossil fuel-driven cars, actually more, but it’s all a game. It’s all a very pernicious game while we’re barreling towards systems collapse.
Loretta Napoleoni:
Yes, exactly, system collapse but due to ignorance. I mean, look, this winter, for example, is always happened with the Tesla. I mean, at minus 15, minus 20, the Tesla stops working. Now, it doesn’t take a lot to know that because if you have your iPhone and you go to Finland and it’s minus 20, within a few minutes, your iPhone stops working because the batteries go flat because that’s what’s happened to the lithium batteries. But how is it possible? Nobody’s thought about this before. How is possible that nobody has confronted Elon Musk when he was launching his Tesla producing all this stuff, saying, “Excuse me, but okay, you can drive in California where the weather is never going below zero,” but what’s happened when you drive in the Scandinavian countries? I mean, what are you doing to prevent the flattening of the lithium batteries?
Okay. So I think a lot of journalists do not do their job properly anymore because they don’t have money, because I mean, newspapers and magazines don’t have money, but the government, for God’s sake, they do have money, so why there are not expertise from the government contesting that kind of information that is put through the various channels that these guys control?
Chris Hedges:
Well, in order to sustain this technological revolution, as you point out in the book, it’s an acceleration of our assault on the planet. So on the one hand, of course, we are given all these gadgets and toys, but we’re actually obliterating… In order for this revolution to happen, we’re obliterating what future we have left.
Loretta Napoleoni:
This is why the idea of colonized Mars is part of the narrative, because the truth is that if you tell people, “Well, don’t worry too much about climate change. Don’t worry too much about overpopulation.” Shall we discuss overpopulation also? Because we’re going to go and colonize Mars, and then Mars is going to be as beautiful as Earth, or Jeff Bezos comes with these weird ideas to create artificial planets inside, which of course, people could live. There’s a film, I think it’s called Elysium. It’s a film where there is one of those artificial where the poor people are on the Earth, they’re left behind, blah, blah, and all the rich people live in these artificial planets which are absolutely beautiful, and they all look like California, of course, where the weather is always nice. It’s not cold, blah, blah. Clearly, if you fall into that trap, you don’t worry so much about the planet because you think, “Well, there is a solution.” Well, no, there is no solution. This is the only planet we have. If we do not save this planet, our grandchildren will not be able to survive.
Chris Hedges:
And that’s the point of the book.
Loretta Napoleoni:
Yeah, this is the point of the book. Now, if all of this technology, because all this technology was put at the use of the common good, that technology could reverse everything, could reverse the climate change. Of course, it is not going to solve the problem of overpopulation, which is a problem that we have to address in a different way, but technology could, for example, provide zero energy production for the entire planet. You can put solar plants in the low Earth orbit, which harness the ray of the sun, and then send through microwave messages, microwave rays that send it to Earth, and they can power the entire planet. You know who is using this technology at the moment? I mean, the US is using that technology to produce the microwave weapon.
Chris Hedges:
That’s right. Depends who has it. Technology is a neutral force.
Loretta Napoleoni:
Exactly. Exactly.
Chris Hedges:
It serves whoever controls it. Unfortunately, we live in an age where the technocapitalists and the corporations have us in a death grip. That was Loretta Napoleoni, author of Technocapitalism: The Rise of the New Robber Barons and the Fight for the Common Good. I want to thank The Real News Network and its production team, Cameron Granadino, Adam Coley, David Hebden, Kayla Rivara. You can find me at chrishedges.substack.com.
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<title>How the OJ trial exposed—and changed—America</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/how-the-oj-trial-exposed-and-changed-america</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Zirin]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Thu, 18 Apr 2024 15:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Edge of Sports TV]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[edge of sports]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
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<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="975" height="659" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-51988465.jpg?fit=975%2C659&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="O.J. Simpson shows the jury a new pair of Aris extra-large gloves, similar to the gloves found at the Bundy and Rockingham crime scene 21 June during his double murder trial in Los Angeles. Photo credit should read POO/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-51988465.jpg?w=975&ssl=1 975w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-51988465.jpg?resize=300%2C203&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-51988465.jpg?resize=768%2C519&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-51988465.jpg?resize=400%2C270&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-51988465.jpg?fit=975%2C659&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>The OJ Simpson trial's effects on media, culture, and politics are still with us today. While America has changed since, it's hard to say we've changed for the better.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="975" height="659" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-51988465.jpg?fit=975%2C659&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="O.J. Simpson shows the jury a new pair of Aris extra-large gloves, similar to the gloves found at the Bundy and Rockingham crime scene 21 June during his double murder trial in Los Angeles. Photo credit should read POO/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-51988465.jpg?w=975&ssl=1 975w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-51988465.jpg?resize=300%2C203&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-51988465.jpg?resize=768%2C519&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-51988465.jpg?resize=400%2C270&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-51988465.jpg?fit=975%2C659&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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On April 10, OJ Simpson p<a href="https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/oj-simpson-death/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">assed away at the age of 76</a>. Although initially catapulted to fame by his career in the NFL and Hollywood, OJ’s early success was ultimately eclipsed by his alleged murder of his wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her lover, Ron Goldman. The double-homicide, subsequent trial, and acquittal rocked the nation—sparking a media frenzy and a culture war that revolved around questions of racism, police corruption, domestic violence, and celebrity impunity. TRNN Editor-in-Chief Maximillian Alvarez joins Edge of Sports for a retrospective on the OJ trial and its consequences.
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Studio Production: David Hebden Post-Production: Taylor Hebden Audio Post-Production: David Hebden Opening Sequence: Cameron Granadino Music by: Eze Jackson & Carlos Guillen
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
Dave Zirin:  Welcome to Edge of Sports, the TV show, only on The Real News Network. I’m Dave Zirin, and right now we’re going to have some choice words about a subject that is roiling conversations across the country right now. I’m talking about the death of O.J. Simpson at age 76.
And I’m going to speak about it with a familiar face to fans of The Real News Network. I’m talking about Mr. Maximilian Alvarez. So thrilled to have him with me.
Max, how you doing, sir?
Maximillian Alvarez:  Brother, I’m doing great. And it is really, really exciting to get to sit down with you in the studio and chat about this.
And I just want to say, for the record, what an honor it has been to work with you on Edge of Sports. If you guys are watching this, the rumors are true. Dave is just as amazing in person as he appears on screen. And yeah, man, I just can’t thank you enough for all the great work you’re doing on Edge of Sports. And it’s a real honor to have you part of the team.
Dave Zirin:  Well, let’s see if they’re thinking that at the end of this segment [Alvarez laughs]. I don’t know.
Maximillian Alvarez:  All right, let’s dive into it.
Dave Zirin:  So, right at you, Max. I want to bring you back to 1994 and 1995. How did you process the trial of the century, O.J. Simpson on trial for murdering Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman?
Maximillian Alvarez:  Man, it’s a wild question to meditate on, because I feel like, in a lot of ways, I processed the trial a certain way as a kid in the ’90s, and I have processed it in a very different way as an adult decades later.
I’ve told you, I’ve told our audience, I’ve talked about this many times on my show and other shows, that I grew up in Southern California. I grew up in a first-gen, Mexican-American mixed race household, and I grew up deeply conservative. And in Orange County, the heart of the Reagan Revolution.
So, as you can imagine, growing up in that context with the O.J. trial going on, the conversations in our house and around our family were very interesting and definitely left an indelible imprint on me at that time. Because I think this was one of the first, if not the first, major media events where I was fully cognizant and conscious enough to absorb the fact that the entire country was talking about this, that it was something that adults got very animated about. It was on all the time on the TV in our house, the trial. It was a media circus in the truest sense.
But I feel like, looking back on it, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen those pictures or if folks watching have seen, when a tree and a forest will grow, if there’s a steel beam, or a bicycle, or a car in its path, it’ll grow around that detritus.
And I bring that image up because I feel like, looking back at the O.J. trial as a kid in the ’90s struggling to develop my own sense of identity and having the complex racial makeup that we had, I feel as if that trial did shape a lot of who I was in the same way that that tree growing around an abandoned car, it still shapes the way the tree grows. But I was growing on a very false understanding of race, of the criminal justice system, of O.J. himself, to say nothing of gendered violence. So much of that didn’t come back later.
And looking back now, it’s odd and, in a way, icky and difficult to look back at the false impressions that I had of the country and of the issues that coalesced around the O.J. trial, and how that trial cemented these false notions that I would build my identity upon over the coming decades. And it wouldn’t be until later until I realized, oh, yeah, there’s actually a lot more to this trial than I originally thought.
So, in a way, I feel like what we’re all doing right now is not just looking back at a point in time in our country’s history, but that was a touchstone for the ways that a lot of us would mentally and politically develop in the coming decades, I think.
Dave Zirin:  Absolutely. When I think about the O.J. trial, on the one hand, it exposed how un-united or dis-united the United States of America actually was; a precursor to today, where people can have the common national experience of watching this trial and draw entirely different conclusions based on the guilt or innocence of the defendant, but also just based on what it represented.
As you said, to some it represented gendered violence, or the fact that, if you’re wealthy, you can hire a dream team of lawyers and get away with murder, literally. To others, it was, oh, this is 1994, just two years ago where that was the LA uprising, referred to as popularly as the LA riots, after the beating of Rodney King by the LAPD in Simi Valley. Or, Simi Valley was the trial.
But that in and of itself was so pungent to people, that this has a context. The context of Daryl Gates, the chief of the LAPD, a context of the anti-gang initiatives, and the context of a system that was weighted against Black people.
So, on one side it was, oh, look at this rich guy. He can hire a dream team of lawyers. On the other side, it was like, oh look, even O.J. Simpson is just a Black man they’re trying to put on death row or incarcerate forever.
And when you factor in the clear evidence of prosecutorial misconduct, all the things that have been put on the record as far as police officers, evidence, the racism of the arresting officer, it became something so much bigger than just this trial, but really this Rorschach test as to how you saw America.
Maximillian Alvarez:  Well, can I hop in on that real quick, because I’m really curious to hear how you yourself were developing in that cultural cauldron of the mid-’90s and how you were perceiving that. Of course, O.J. was famous before that trial for being an All-Star athlete.
But to round out the thought from the first question, again, growing up Brown in America, being the son of a Mexican immigrant, and growing up conservative, that’s not a rare thing. A lot of us are in that bucket. But everyone’s got their own reasons for believing the things they do and feeling the ways they feel.
And I remember, when I say I built my own identity on the false foundations that came together in the O.J. trial in the mid-’90s, was, for us, this was a clear example of the bankruptcy of liberal discourse on race. Because there was a deep-seated and, I think, genuine belief in our family, like so many others, that you live in a white country, do not let it define you by your race.
And so, for the conservative side, for us, we were always really opposed to this notion of Latinos, we’re going to vote Democrat. Or Latinos are marginalized, or Black people are a marginalized community. We didn’t have the historical background to understand the breadth of systemic racism. We’ve lived it and experienced it.
But again, the politics around it were when you have a case where it seems so patently obvious that the defendant committed the crime, but then racially charged arguments are being made to acquit him, and when you don’t have that understanding of the larger systemic context there, you’re going to end up feeling, after that trial, like a lot of people did, which was like, oh, the murderer got off free because of this argument about race.
And that was something that, again, in my young mind, that’s all I was really seeing. And I can see how that understanding really shaped who I was for the coming years.
But I’m curious where you were at that moment and how it shaped the way that you think.
Dave Zirin:  Well, first of all, direct truth time, I am a Knicks fan. I was born and raised a Knicks fan. I’m watching the New York Knicks finally make it to the NBA Finals against the Houston Rockets, and I’m watching it with a bunch of buddies. And then the game is interrupted for the Ford Bronco chase. And at first we’re absolutely transfixed, like, oh my goodness, that the juice is loose. And everything that was going along with that. Absolutely transfixed.
And then after a while it was, uh, can we get the game back on? As soon as they said the goal is to hopefully have the car run out of gas [Alvarez laughs]. That was the goal of the police at that time, they did not want a high speed chase. It was a low speed chase, the most famous low speed chase in the history of this country. So, that was the first thought, can we get the game back on?
But it was only as the trial proceeded into 1995, and I’m just coming into politics at this time, that I remember that it felt like a pool cue hitting the 8-ball, and it’s bouncing all around.
And so, I’m going back and forth in my brain from thinking about it in terms of how do we understand this with regards to the fact that Nicole Brown Simpson called the police multiple times talking about spousal abuse and they didn’t do anything because of what is known as celebrity justice in Los Angeles? But then again, how do we process the fact that the LAPD is racist to its core, corrupt to its core, Daryl Gates to its core?
For me, the most pivotal political moment of my teenage life was the LA riots, the LA uprising. So, that’s all very fresh in my mind as I’m processing this case in Los Angeles and trying to figure out what it all meant.
And then, I have to say, I was very attuned to the fact that there were some people who wanted O.J. to fry, out of feelings that we need law and order in this country, this is about justice. We just made it through this LA riot situation. O.J. needs to find himself either in prison for the rest of his life or on death row, otherwise there is no justice.
So, it’s interesting because sometimes we talk about it as if it’s almost like two progressive sides of the coin. Well, there are people who care about gendered violence and people who care about the way the rich can buy justice, and then there are people who care about racism.
But actually, there was a huge third lane that was we’re white, we’re angry, we think Black and Brown people have too many rights. And if O.J. becomes free, it’s going to become crime spree America because people will think that they can do whatever they want, including get away with murder. So, all of that stuff was operating at the same time.
And I feel like the times that we live in now, I called O.J. America’s algorithm, because these times we live in now where it’s the loudest, the angriest, the meanest, the most bigoted voices that get the most play and attention, I feel like the O.J. trial was the soil for that. And that’s why we’re still living with it to this day. So, it’s not even a look back at the 1990s, but an assessment of the wreckage of 2024 and understanding how we got here.
Maximillian Alvarez:  I think that’s really beautifully put. And let’s unpack that even a little bit more. Because you alluded to this in your great column for The Nation that you wrote about this, that there is something in the O.J. trial that is both… There’s a lot there that’s very much a story of its time.
Like you said, this was a really intense moment that folks who didn’t live through it or who have forgotten may not remember. We had the LA riots, we had the Bill Clinton and the Sister Souljah moment. We had the O.J. trial and all of the cultural jokes that were made about… The anti-Asian jokes about Lance Ito, the racist jokes about Black people, the gendered jokes about Nicole Simpson. And so, it was a really telling moment in the ’90s that I’m curious to get your thoughts on.
But also, as you said, there was so much in that moment that was a harbinger for the three increasingly nuts decades that lay before us. The fact that, like you said, you had these loud, extremely polarized, extremely partisan groups of people watching this trial and seeing fundamentally different things every step of the way.
Again, we talk about algorithmic echo chambers and people in the internet age being so polarized and not talking to each other. But here we see, in the age before Web 2.0, that polarization was still very, very present.
And I think the one other thing that I would say, picking up on that point that you made, this is what I mean when I say, looking back three decades later, I feel gross trying to unpack the way this moment in history shaped me when I didn’t have the background, the context, the political wherewithal to understand it.
But I think what it fundamentally boils down to is American culture was not equipped to grapple with a situation in which there are no good actors. Everyone’s got some rot in them. Yes, the police were racist. Yes, they were caught on tape saying the N-word multiple times. Yes, Rodney King was beat on camera. So, that is right. And then yes, Johnny Cochran and his whole team were exploiting race to get their client off. And yes, by basically every metric we can surmise, O.J. did it.
And so, you have this intense cauldron of anxieties and political attitudes across the country converging on this case. And I think it really is a deeply American example of there is no universal principle of justice and truth that comes out of this. All it is is which side is going to benefit from the corruption and rot of the existing system and claim that as a victory. But the rot is there at every point.
Dave Zirin:  And the rot seems to be the only thing both sides can agree upon, even if they’re not agreeing upon it explicitly. They’re all trying to outshout one another about what is so fundamentally wrong with the system instead of taking a step back and saying, well, how do we fix the system? How do we make sure that gendered violence becomes a relic of history? How do we de-racismify the LAPD? How do we make sure that Daryl Gates becomes a museum piece and not somebody who has any sway over our police department?
And instead, what we’ve seen out of the O.J. case, the legacy of it, I think, is two things: One, the utter debasement of our culture. We’re talking about court TV, we’re talking about the shouting heads on cable news, we’re talking about the Kardashians. Robert Kardashian being one of O.J.’s attorneys, the father of the Kardashian sisters and brothers, whatever they are or whoever they are. But it’s all and reality TV in general.
All of this comes out of the appetites that the trial exposed because it showed that the United States, America, the people have an appetite for celebrity, have an appetite for distraction, and have an appetite, as W.E.B. Du Bois predicted a century earlier, for race, racism, race talk, the racial divide, the American obsession, all culminating in this one trial, was utterly irresistible catnip for the American public.
And then it metastasized all throughout every area of media. And that’s something we still live with strongly to this day, and something that should trouble people.
And maybe this can be a moment where we do actually assess where we are and say, all right, if the O.J. case was like that patient zero moment that’s brought us to this point, what can we possibly do to have a better media culture? What can we possibly do to fight racism, to fight gender violence, to fight all the things, all the pressure points that the trial exposed?
Maximillian Alvarez:  Right. And again, you made this point, maybe it was in your Nation article, that it’s not necessarily that history went this way because of the O.J. trial. If it wasn’t the O.J. trial, it very well would’ve been something else in that decade. But again, this became the perfect crystallization of a very intense and changing time in the country, in the world.
Let’s not forget also that this was after the end of the Cold War. Before the end of the war on terror, there really was this more commonly felt sense that capitalism had prevailed on the world stage. The pie was going to be big enough for everybody. You had the dot-com boom, real estate bubble. There was also, amidst all of this, an appetite for those things that was also fueled by not having all the existential dread that we have today, 30 years later, with every news story that comes out. So, there’s also that.
And I just wanted to underline again, because you mentioned how there were people within the progressive side, and then there was a very big third category of predominantly white people on the other side. But again, you also had categories like my family that were somewhere in between. And again, not believing at all that we ourselves were racist for thinking that O.J. was guilty as shit.
This was happening as well at the time when affirmative action, especially in California, was a hot button issue. I believe that came to a head in ’96. So, the O.J. trial fed into that racial discourse in the mid-’90s about affirmative action. And it was, in fact, a perfect example of what conservatives were trying to say. Which is, if you’re arguing about affirmative action and policies like that as compensating for historical injustices and racism, here you have a clear-cut case of, but that does not negate personal responsibility.
And so, you had, within that discourse through O.J., the ability for a large segment of the country to argue against the notion of systemic racism, to argue against the kinds of things that Cochran was talking about in his closing statements. And so, families like ours were very much influenced by that, because without an understanding of what systemic racism was, all we knew was like, well, if someone murders someone, they should still go to jail. And if they don’t because of race, there’s still a problem here.
And I stress that in detail because people watching can’t underestimate how much that trial and the verdict sedimented people’s understanding of liberal and left racial politics discourse for the next 30 years. It’s the touchstone to which people will always return to to say arguments about systemic racism are clearly bad because if they lead to a murderer getting off free, a murderer and an abuser getting off free, then something’s wrong.
Dave Zirin:  And then the flip side is if we can prosecute people based upon evidence that’s faulty, racism in the police force, stuff that attorney Barry Sheck exposed, one of O.J.’s dream team attorneys exposed, in a very systematic way.
And that’s another part of this that we have to say, is it launched the careers of a lot of people. And some of them actually did good with their careers, like Barry Sheck and his work getting people off of death row and being revolutionary with DNA evidence. Getting a lot of people whose lives were being destroyed as lifers and getting them off death row. That’s just a side note.
But it’s just to say that, yeah, the discourse about race and racism becomes very cemented in that. Like you said, there’s that one side that says, well, how are people getting away with murder just because you say systemic racism? That shows how bankrupt looking at that is. And then the other side, which is like, how can we have a court system that allows for something like this? And both sides have something to say.
To me, it’s the mark of our times that they couldn’t say it together, and that they had to say it with a barricade in between them. That’s what makes it so difficult, even to this day. It would be a lot easier if it was just racist white people on one side and a sense of racial justice on the other. But it’s a big mix because of everything that the trial exposed about how divided we are. And unfortunately, we’re not divided in just one way, but we’re absolutely sliced and diced. And the trial exposed that.
Maximillian Alvarez:  Again, I think that’s really powerfully put. And again, both shows, again, how it was a story of its time and foreshadowing the time of monsters that we are ourselves currently in.
And I just wanted to wrap that into one question, if I may throw your way, thinking about how class, particularly wealth at the level of a star athlete like O.J., and the sports culture, how that shaped the way that we understood this case, and how it also contributed to the death of two people in this case.
And if I may, I wanted to read, because I want to honor this really powerful piece by Moira Donegan in The Guardian about the gendered violence here. The piece is titled: “O.J. Simpson died the comfortable death in old age that Nicole Brown should have had”. And it really resonated with me, especially after our conversation.
So, Donegan writes, “Cops were called to the Simpsons house no fewer than nine times; it is likely that Nicole endured many more beatings than that without ever calling the police. But the officers were deferential to O.J., accepting his version of events. They were more impressed by his status as a celebrity former athlete than interested in what he was doing to his wife. Nicole’s friends reportedly often encouraged her to get back together with O.J. Her parents liked him, too, and apparently regretted the divorce even though they were aware that Simpson was beating their daughter. (He had set Nicole’s father up with a Hertz dealership.)
“In the weeks before her death, Nicole told many people that she was afraid that O.J. would kill her and get away with it. But these words of Nicole’s were not admitted as evidence at O.J.’s subsequent criminal trial. The judge, Lance Ito, deemed them ‘hearsay’, noting that Nicole could not be cross-examined by O.J.’s lawyers, because she was dead.”
And then just one more point to make, “Nicole Brown had just turned 18, and was working as a waitress in Los Angeles, when she met the man whose violence would define the rest of her short life. […] One of the first times O.J. hit her, he apologized by buying her a Porsche. After another time, he asked her to marry him. She said yes.
“Abuse is like this: its contradictions and reversals, the batterer’s promises that he will change matched only by the victim’s desperate, delusional wish to believe him. But domestic violence is like cancer: without intervention, it will march inevitably towards death. Nicole begged for help: from police, from her friends, from family, and ultimately from a domestic violence shelter. No one was able to help her because no one was willing to stand between her and O.J. No one was willing to act like her life was more important than his celebrity.”
Dave Zirin:  That’s an LA story in so many respects. It’s a story about celebrity, it’s a story about wealth, it’s a story about gendered violence, and it’s a story about something that I have heard from about a million different people, and not just in LA. Although I do feel like LA, in some respects, produced this and exported it, this relationship between police and sports teams.
These are not superficial relationships, and it’s not just that cops are big sports fans. We’re talking about people who get hired to work security at stadiums. We’re talking about people who get hired as personal bodyguards or personal drivers of athletes, and that being one of the great plums of being a police officer in a big sports town. And then, of course, getting an autographed football for your cousin, and all the rest of it. That proximity to celebrity is a narcotic. And let’s be honest, it’s a narcotic for most people in most professions.
But when you’re a police officer and you’re charged to protect and serve and you have a gun on your hip, it all of a sudden becomes much more serious and much more dire. Especially if you’re being asked to do something which, I would argue, police officers are, frankly, not trained to do, and that’s intervene peacefully in domestic disputes and making sure tragedy does not occur.
So, that’s one of the things I kept hearing when I heard that story: police called nine times. Shouldn’t that also be evidence number one for those people who say defund the police and fund people who are actually trained social workers to intervene in these situations who can get people to safety, isn’t this evidence that we need so much more than what we have when it comes to our laws that exist for public safety in this country?
Because they, far too often, make people feel unsafe. And we’ve also heard far too many stories of people who don’t call the police in these situations, not just because they think they won’t be able to get help, but because of concerns that, when you call the police, you run the risk of the dispute ending with somebody in a body bag.
Maximillian Alvarez:  Well, this is going to be a very loaded final question from me. But looking 30 years later, having covered this world your whole career, through so many intense peaks and valleys and developments in terms of the role sports are playing in shaping our understanding of race, our understanding of gender. We had the Colin Kaepernick moment, which you wrote a book about and have talked about a lot. We had the #MeToo phenomenon that was a major reckoning, but clearly there’s still so much more to do when it comes to addressing the patriarchal structure and violence of our society.
So, I guess I just wanted to ask, 30 years later, looking back, do you feel like we have advanced politically in terms of the roles that sports play in our understanding of what equality means and how we understand race, gender, and class? Or do you feel like the sports world, particularly professional sports and sports media, have found new ways to effectively do what was done in the ’90s around the O.J. trial?
Dave Zirin:  All right. So, great question. Sports is still sports. It’s bigger than US Steel. It’s an athletic-industrial complex, and it’ll always reward some of the worst actors in its midst if that’s what it takes to keep the trains running on time and the cash register going and the golden goose laying its eggs. So, I don’t think anything has changed on that front.
What has changed, and we talked about how ugly social media is, but one of the other things it’s provided is a space for people with the kinds of analyses that we were missing in 1994, 1995. Where were the Moira Donagans in 1994, 1995? They weren’t being heard in the way that they can be heard now, or people who have something important to say about race and racism.
The entire film by Ezra Edelman that won an Oscar called O.J.: Made in America. That whole film, to me, is a tribute to how far we’ve come in terms of our ability to understand all the different angles of something like this. Which I think in 1994, 1995, we were utterly unequipped to do.
So, I do see hope because we have a better ability to understand situations like this. And through understanding, well, that’s a prerequisite to change. So, we have that in our arsenal right now in a way we did not 30 years ago.
But as far as has the sports world changed? Uh-uh (negative). As Joseph Lowery, the great reverend and friend of Dr. Martin Luther King, as he said about the criminal justice system in this country, he said it’s like a horse in that so much has changed, but a horse 100, 200 years ago looks a hell of a lot like a horse today. It’s the same with the sports world. It was a horse 30 years ago; It’s a horse now. The only thing that’s changed is our ability to understand how to ride the horse.
Well, that’s all we’re talking about here on Edge of Sports. Thank you so much to Max Alvarez for that conversation, man. I really do appreciate it.
Maximillian Alvarez:  Thank you, brother.
Dave Zirin:  That was terrific. For everybody out there listening, please stay frosty. We are out of here. Peace.
Maximillian Alvarez:  Thank you so much for watching The Real News Network, where we lift up the voices, stories. and struggles that you care about most. And we need your help to keep doing this work. So, please, tap your screen now, subscribe, and donate to The Real News Network. Solidarity forever.
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<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312125</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>Cuba’s protests and the long crisis of US intervention</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/cubas-protests-and-the-long-crisis-of-us-intervention</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ju-Hyun Park]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Wed, 17 Apr 2024 17:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Cuba]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312096</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="699" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C699&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="A demonstrator carries a banner with an image of late Argentine-born Marxist revolutionary hero Ernesto "Che" Guevara during the commemoration of May Day (Labour Day) to mark the international day of the workers, at Havana's Revolution Square, on May 1, 2022. Photo by YAMIL LAGE/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C205&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C699&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C524&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1048&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1398&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C819&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1070&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1365&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C273&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C699&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>63 years after the failed Bay of Pigs invasion, US attempts to suffocate the Cuban Revolution are stronger than ever—yet corporate media seeks to blame Cuba alone for its crisis.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="699" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C699&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="A demonstrator carries a banner with an image of late Argentine-born Marxist revolutionary hero Ernesto "Che" Guevara during the commemoration of May Day (Labour Day) to mark the international day of the workers, at Havana's Revolution Square, on May 1, 2022. Photo by YAMIL LAGE/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C205&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C699&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C524&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1048&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1398&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C819&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1070&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1365&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C273&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240373557-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C699&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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Protests against shortages of food and fuel in Cuba’s eastern provinces on March 18 brought the corporate media spotlight back to the island, which is currently experiencing a major economic crisis. True to form, much US reporting on the protests attempted to construct a familiar narrative of Cuba as a failed state on the brink of collapse, with no mention of the 62-year US blockade. This is particularly striking given how Cuba’s current crisis is a direct outcome of the intensification of the blockade under Trump—which President Biden has upheld throughout his term despite promises to relieve the strangulation of Cuba.
So what’s really going on in Cuba today? How severe is the crisis, and where did it come from? What sort of future do the Cuban people envision for themselves, and what role does the US have to play in it? To address these questions and more, The Real News speaks with <a href="https://twitter.com/manolo_realengo?lang=en" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Manolo de los Santos</a> of <a href="https://peoplesforum.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">The People’s Forum</a>, and <a href="https://twitter.com/lizolivafdez?lang=en" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Liz Oliva Fernandez</a> of <a href="https://www.bellyofthebeastcuba.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Belly of the Beast</a>.
<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
Studio Production: Ju-Hyun Park Post-Production: Alina Nehlich, Cameron Granadino
</blockquote>
Additional links:
<ul>
<li>Support the <a href="https://secure.givelively.org/donate/peoples-forum-inc/let-cuba-live-bread-for-our-neighbors#:~:text=Please%20make%20a%20donation%20today,give%20bread%20to%20our%20neighbor." target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Let Cuba Live: Bread for Our Neighbors</a> campaign to send flour to the people of Cuba as they weather their worst economic crisis in decades.</li>
<li><a href="https://www.bellyofthebeastcuba.com/events-1" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Find screenings near you for two new documentaries from Belly of the Beast </a>premiering in October: Uphill on the Hill and Hardliner on the Hudson.</li>
</ul>
<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Ju-Hyun:
Welcome back one and all to The Real News podcast. My name is Ju-Hyun Park, engagement Editor here at The Real News and your host for today’s episode where we’ll be talking about the current challenges facing the Cuban Revolution with two very special guests, Liz Olivia Fernandez of Belly of the Beast and Manolo De Los Santos of The People’s Forum. Before we proceed, I want to begin as always by offering my heartfelt thanks to all you listeners and readers on behalf of the entire team here at The Real News. The Real News is a totally not-for-profit independent news outlet dedicated to bringing you the real stories of working people fighting for a better world. From Bangladesh to Baltimore. I can’t tell you enough how proud your support makes us. Our sole purpose in doing the work we do is to arm you with the information you need to comprehend and transform our world.
We want to be a compass on your journey and if you appreciate the direction we’re pointing you in, head over to therealnews.com/donate to become a monthly sustainer of our work. And if you want to stay in touch and get regular updates about the latest and greatest stories from us, then sign up for our free newsletter at therealnews.com/sign-up. Since the COVID pandemic, Cuba has been thrust into an acute economic crisis that is among the worst in its history. The economic turmoil of the pandemic was intensified by the isolation imposed on Cuba by the decades-long US blockade, which then-President Trump strengthened by slapping Cuba with an additional 243 sanctions during his first term. The Biden administration has refused to loosen the noose that’s been placed around Cuba. The result for the people of the island has been years of crisis, oil and food shortages, power outages, shocks to the medical system, and a crisis of emigration that is steadily draining Cuba of talented youth.
On March 17th, a rare series of protests broke out in Cuba’s eastern provinces. In typical fashion, the international media shone a harsh spotlight on the protests as a rare visible sign of dissatisfaction with the socialist government. Little has been done however to explain the roots of the crisis in the US’s Long War on the Cuban Revolution and the Cuban people, or to highlight the ways that Cuba continues to try and provide for its people while advancing its socialism. Today we’re fortunate to be joined by two deeply knowledgeable guests, both of whom can be described as among the leading public communicators on Cuba in the English-speaking world.
Liz Olivia Fernandez is an award-winning Cuban journalist with Belly of the Beast, a US-based outlet dedicated to covering Cuba’s untold stories. Manolo De Los Santos is a popular educator and organizer as well as the founding director of The People’s Forum, a movement incubator in New York City for working-class communities to build unity across historic lines of division at home and abroad. He also collaborates as a researcher with the Tri-Continental Institute for Social Research. Liz, Manolo, welcome back to The Real News.
Manolo De Los Santos:
It’s a pleasure. I’m happy to join back with Liz.
Liz Oliva Fernández:
The same here.
Ju-Hyun:
Amazing. Thank you so much again for joining us. Let’s start with the basics. Could you give our audience a very brief overview of what happened during the recent protests and what the issues were that were at the center of these mobilizations?
Liz Oliva Fernández:
Well, recently Cuba has facing the different protests by the situations. Most of them are because of blackouts, scarcity of food and medicine. This is not new. This is something that is starting in 2019, even before the pandemic with Trump administration sanctions against Cuba, that went from bad to worse and this situation is going to be like that from that. After that, we have facing the Covid pandemic and Cuba has been trying to survive from there to now and the situation is going to getting worse and worse with the time. So even in, well in the city I live in Havana, so you can feel in the sensation of desperation and frustration that people have. So in rural areas that this is where the most recent protests break down was the situation is worse because we barely have access to fuel. They have facing blackout for more than 18 hours.
Some of them have 20 hours of blackout in a day. The scarcity of food is getting worse because the government barely have access to buy the most basic food. I was reading the other day the report that they have about the sanctions on Cuba and they say that even because… I don’t know if you know about the rationalized food, the Cuban government give to the people in order to have… They have the basic. Well even in that kind of things has been delayed because the government is not allowed, they don’t have access to food or card or credit or nothing because of the sanctions. So the situation of the food and the medicine, of the fuel in Cuba and basic things has getting worse on worse with the time.
Ju-Hyun:
Thank you for that. Manolo, I’m curious if you want to jump in here and add anything to Liz’s addressing of the situation.
Manolo De Los Santos:
No, I would think I would start from the same place as Liz that protests in Cuba are not something new. They’re not like an exceptional phenomenon. That’s actually something that’s happening quite regularly. It doesn’t often make it to the news, but people are protesting across the island in different ways, in different moments over what is the continuous pressure of what US sanctions mean in people’s lives on the island. It’s not about the numbers. Yes, we could cite that Cuba loses about 4.8 billion a year due to sanctions and due to the US blockade, but concretely in terms of people’s lives right now it means major shortages that are essentially creating a food crisis in the fact that Cuba not only is it able to import major food commodities, but it’s not even able to import raw materials that allow them to produce basic things like bread for example.
Eastern provinces like in Santiago, but also in Guantanamo and others, you have the added element that because of also the scarcity of fuel, it becomes even harder for the country to transport most of the food that does come in and the supplies that do come in that arrive usually through the port of Mariel, transporting them to the other side of the island is already a major endeavor that makes it even difficult. So it affects the rationing system. It affects even just the basic life, daily life of millions of people on the island.
Ju-Hyun:
Thank you. I think this background context of the blockade and the multi-level crisis that Cuban society is undergoing currently as a result of that is some pretty crucial information for us to have before proceeding further. I think focusing in on that a little more finely, it’s often said by supporters of the US embargo or the blockade against Cuba that because it doesn’t officially include food and medicine, therefore the reality of food crisis in Cuba is not something that can be attributed to the blockade. How would you respond to or counter these claims?
Manolo De Los Santos:
Well, I think the US often claims several things. One, that food and medicine are exempted and at the same time they claim that the US is one of the largest exporters of food to Cuba. And I think there’s not just a question of the fine print that is missing in these declarations, but I would say overall context. I mean the reality is, and I can share a personal experience about it in a few, but the gist of it is that even with certain exemptions, the conditions on which Cuba is allowed to purchase food or medicine in the US are quite onerous. Primarily Cuba is the only country that is forced to purchase goods from the United States directly having to pay fully in advance with no guarantees or security of being able to receive the product that they’ve paid for. This is one major element and we have to raise it that this is an anomaly on the international trade.
No other country on the planet has to actually engage in trade on these terms. Most of it is done through credit. Most of this is done through legitimate banks that are able to guarantee to both the vendor and the customer that goods will arrive. And in the case of Cuba, it’s almost like a lottery. Cuba is forced to pay in cash many times and then left wondering if they will receive what they paid for. That happens often in the case of Cuba-US economic exchange. But then there’s another element which I think is even more prevalent in the last five years, which is that because Cuba was placed on the state sponsors of terrorism list, most banks around the world are very much unwilling to do the financial transactions necessary for Cuba to make these purchases. Automatically seeing Cuba in any transaction already creates a series of red flags that banks are in fact required to investigate and look deeper into and often stalls the process of any purchases.
And I’ll just tell you from a very personal experience, for the last four weeks I’ve reached out to 16 different grain distributors in the United States asking them we’re willing to buy at market price over a thousand tons of flour, of wheat flour to send to Cuba and not one of them was able to give a positive response to our requests. Most of them mentioned immediately the limitations that they face and the fear that they face of engaging in any trade of this type of Cuba. Even if there could be an exemption, just the state of paranoia and the state of fear that even if they were to do this somehow they would be fined like many companies have been by the US government is enough to impede this so-called exemption from actually allowing Cubans to buy.
Liz Oliva Fernández:
And I would like to act is because it’s funny. They say, okay, food and medicines, they are under sanctions. Have you tried to send food and medicine from United States to Cuba? The people who said this have been trying to send food and medicine to Cuba, it’s easy, but they have to hire someone from a Cuban-American enterprise in Miami who are making a lot of money, a lot of profit with that kind of business. I’m asked to the people that are trying to send to Cuba medicines equipment, to trying to give a little bit of solidarity. A lot of groups are trying to get food and medicine in Cuba are facing so many stuff. Also, senators and congress people in the US to say, “Okay, but Cuba spent 3 million dollars in 2023 for just food in Cuba.” Okay, that’s true. $300 million, that’s true, but how much percent? How much represent that kind of money in terms? And this is because as Manolo said and explained a few minutes ago, is because exemptions. Why give any exemptions to processing food or medicine or whatever to the United States?
But for example, DR. In the same period of time, 2023, DR spent 1.3 thousands, millions of dollars for such in food in the US. And just in food, and this is just in food. What is the difference between $300 million and 1,300 thousands million dollars? That’s DR. Guatemala, just in food and also I’m trying to remember the data, 70,000 millions of dollars just in for the same, and these are countries that they have even less population like Cuba. So what that kind of money represents to a government in order to get food to all the families in Cuba to all the people who live in Cuba, that’s nothing. They use the number and this is the things that people in US doesn’t know about math. What percent that in a country that have the populations of 11 million Cubans living in the same place. So okay, you can get food and sometimes medicine to the United States, but at what cost?
What cost? Because it’s not about money, it’s about time, it’s about obstacles. It’s about overcoming things the entire time. So what… Ask the farmers in the US, it’s easy for them to try to sell food or whatever to Cuba? Chicken, everybody’s talking about how Cuban people are consuming US chickens. It’s not US chickens, it’s blacks. It’s because in the US doesn’t like legs. You enjoy more breasts. So the kind of chicken that is so cheap for Cuba to buy that kind of chicken in the US, they don’t have any popularity at all to pursue that kind of things. And we can pay it, but we can pay it and we have to pay in advance for a product that we haven’t seen and for a product that is going to take maybe two weeks to ship to Cuba. So the people who already said that kinds of thing, they really understand the complexity of everything. They really understand how difficult is the amount of obstacles that people have to face in order to deliver or to ship to Cuba food or medicines or they just are repeating as usual.
Ju-Hyun:
Thank you. I think you’ve both really effectively demonstrated how the sanctions’ regime is not about just a simple list of products that are not allowed in Cuba. It’s really attacking Cuba’s ability to make any transactions at all to be able to engage in trade in a timely and smooth way which is required in order to maintain its systems, in order to have inputs that are going to go into the mouths of the people, into their cars, into generating power and things of this nature. I want to pivot a little bit to talking a little about the political situation, particularly with the Biden administration, which has made several promises on different occasions to reverse Trump sanctions on Cuba, particularly reconsidering Cuba’s placement on the state sponsors of terrorism list.
That’s a promise that is yet to be fulfilled and with time running out in the Biden administration, it doesn’t seem like it’s something that’s going to be a priority for this presidency. Liz, I know that you and Belly of the Beast are coming out with some new documentaries that approach this topic, so I’m wondering if you can educate our audience a little bit on why exactly the Biden administration has adopted the stance as it has and Manolo, I’m curious as well if you can speak a little bit from your experience in attempting to get this current administration to change its policies.
Liz Oliva Fernández:
Well, I can’t talk about why the administration is keeping Cuba in the states sponsor of terrorism list because I don’t know why, because they haven’t explained why. They say the thing is on their review, but has been on the review since the beginning of the Biden administration. And also they don’t have any proof, any evidence that Cuba actually sponsored terrorism. And the excuse that they give to journalists, they’re really big and they’re talking about US political prisoners that Cuba gave them asylum in the 80s. And Cuba as any other country around the world is privileged to give asylum, whatever citizen and asking for, we consider that this is the right things to do. And we did in the 80s. So back of now, from them to now we haven’t given asylum to any other US citizens and they never explained.
But in fact, it is something that is funny and I say funny because the last year I was covering the cooperation between Cuba and the United States, I have the opportunity to interview the Coast Guard, the person who represent the US Coast Guard and US Embassy here in Havana, and they talk wonderful about Cuba. In fact, if you review the documents from the state department to talk about the counterterrorism support cooperation between Cuba the United States they have, they give Cuba excellent qualifications because Cuba is the main allies to the United States in the Caribbean, the South America in order to fight terrorism, drug trafficking and human trafficking smugglers, everything.
So how is possible that you start collaboration and cooperation with a country that supports terrorism is the same country that are helping United States to fight terrorism? Is not an irony of this? Is not something that is lack of argument when you asking someone what is going on, you are collaborating, you have cooperation with someone that you say that is terrorism and support terrorism but are helping you to fight against terrorism? I think the biggest question that Biden administration has to answer in some point, but because so far we haven’t listened a single argument that really put an evidence about why is Cuba in the states sponsor of terrorism list.
Manolo De Los Santos:
Well, I think that the US to begin with has over two centuries long obsession with dominating Cuba. It has been a premise for almost every US president in one way or another to seize Cuba, dominate Cuba, occupy Cuba, control Cuba, confront Cuba, all on the basis that it’s seen to be as a territory that should always be in the sphere of influence of the United States, if not directly a part of it. I mean there’ve even been attempts at annexation in these last 200 years. But if we were to look at what’s been happening in the transition from the Trump administration to the Biden administration, I think there was this false idea that the Cuban revolution was on its last legs, that if there was enough of a push, the Cuban government would fall. And again, 200 years of dreams of dominating Cuba could be finally realized. And therefore there’s been for the past five years, I would say a bipartisan consensus on maintaining harsh, I would say quite cruel and inhumane strength in sanctions against Cuba.
I don’t think anyone in Washington on either side of the bench Republicans or Democrats really believe that Cuba actually belongs on the state sponsors of terrorism list. I don’t think anyone actually, even people who hate Cuba or anti-Cuba within Congress don’t actually believe that Cuba is engaging in any activity that supports terrorism. But ultimately the state sponsors of terrorism list, not just from regards to Cuba but to any of the countries that are listed on it, has always been used as a political tool in order to campaign publicly against the so-called enemies of US interests. The bigger question I think that’s yet to be seen is regardless of what Biden does in this new period is when will us politicians realize that the Cubans do not want to give up on their political independence?
That no matter every attempt that the US has made over the last six decades to overthrow the Cuban government, to starve its people, to create so much deprivation and so much suffering that people have no other option. Even in those circumstances, even among Cubans who do not agree with the Cuban revolution, who do not agree with the socialist project, there’s a strong fervor for maintaining their political independence, and that should always be the basis for any serious conversation between the Cuban government and the US government. When will the US government actually wise up to this? That is the question that is yet to be seen.
Ju-Hyun:
Thank you both so much for setting that up for us. I want to briefly detour to bringing up this memorandum from the State Department from Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Interim American Affairs, Mallory to his colleague [inaudible 00:22:19]. This was outlining the program for the sanctions regime or the beginning of the blockade against Cuba. This is a memo from 1960 and it very clearly states out that the goal of the blockade was to decrease monetary and real wages to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government. So really just highlighting that last point that you’re making here Manolo, that this is part of a longstanding political project with very specific goals from the United States in terms of establishing influence over Cuba in terms of undermining its independent project. I want to pivot a little bit as we reach a good halfway point in this conversation to talk about what the efforts of the Cuban people and government look like in the face of these challenges.
We’ve outlined what exactly the challenge is, where it comes from in the form of the blockade and talked a bit about how it’s quite unlikely that we’re going to see a sudden and about face from the US government given the conditions that are prevailing at this time. So can you tell us a little bit more about the efforts that are being made by the Cuban people, by the Cuban government to establish resilience to resolve the issues of hunger and energy that they’re facing and maybe if you can also tie in some of the work that you are doing as well to support those efforts, that would be great.
Manolo De Los Santos:
So I think considering the difficult circumstances that the Cuban people and the government face in which essentially their hands are being tied behind their backs to be able to respond to any of these challenges is incredibly difficult. But what I have noticed consistently, and I think it is remarkable when you compare to other countries around the world who have gone through similar situations is that the first premise of the Cuban government and its people has been to not engage in any internal neoliberal package to dismantle the state of social welfare that has existed on the island for 60 years. The pressure always in these circumstances is to privatize. The pressure is always to leave as many people out of a project that has prided itself on including everyone in its provision of healthcare, of education, of housing and so on for so many people.
Of course Cuba has had to deal with all these provisions but with many severe limitations. But you could say for the most part that it has provided for the well-being of its people, and I think the fact that it wants to continue doing that at all costs, even with the delays, even with the severe limitations under these cruel sanctions is remarkable. I think the other challenge that it faces is finding partners on the world stage that are willing and able to take sacrifices and actually challenge US hegemony in providing alternative sources of development for Cuba. And I think this is the case of countries like China and Russia that are actively now working with Cuba to build alternative sources of renewable fuel that allow Cuba to sustain itself without having to depend as much on the import of diesel and oil and other source of fuels.
There are other areas which is on self-sustainability of its agriculture. There are many partners around the world, again, China Russia but many others including movements including the landless workers movements of Brazil who are actively working with the Cuban people to develop the capacity, for example, for Cuba to produce its own fertilizers rather than have to continue to import at such a high cost from other parts of the world. These are many things that ultimately do not fix the whole scenario, but that begin to allow Cuban people to develop at their own pace under these extreme pressures.
And I think our responsibility of people living in the United States is not to provide charity to the Cuban people, but on the contrary to help them in their process of standing up on their own two feet. I think the Cuban people are a proud people. There are people who have proven to the world not once but many times over their incredible capacity to create, to build, to actually show us what an alternative in a future society could look like. But they need our support to get there and any effort of solidarity, whether we’re sending food aid to support, but at this moment but also supporting their biotechnological development and many other areas of their development is crucially important.
Liz Oliva Fernández:
And I come back to the beginning when you talk about to protest, if you want to know about what is the situation in Cuba looks like, just see the protest when the people are asking for food and electricity during the process. I think that that shows you the scenario. Also, I can talk about the government, but I can talk about me and my neighbors how it’s difficult even having an incredible healthcare system like we have in Cuba, access to treatments. We have the best doctors and physicians and nurses and all the physicians that we can… We teach and we grow here in Cuba and we can’t have access to treatment. Why? Because we don’t have access to medicines because the biggest pharmacists are in the United States or belongs to someone that is related to the United States. It’s illegal to Cuba to have access to biotechnology.
That’s why we start to develop our own biotechnology in the 90s. And we did it quite a success because we were able to create not one but two vaccines against Covid-19 during the Covid-19 pandemic. I think like for me it’s about why we were paying… For example, why the protest in Cuba make it to the mainstream media outlets? Why the protest in Cuba, even when they’re small or big or medium, no matter the size, make it to the mainstream media? Why they are so hungry about this scarcity and the necessities that we have in Cuba? Why they’re covering that instead of covering Palestine? What is happening there or what is covering what is happening in Haiti and the role that the United States has been playing in Haiti and [inaudible 00:28:48] DR or whatever? Because the situation in Cuba is no different in so many aspects of the situation, the rest of Latin America or the Caribbean. But why they care? Why they cover the protests, but they never care about the sanctions.
They never report about how the sanctions affect us or how these group of Cuban Americans that they have a powerful group in the Congress trying talk about Cubans, but they haven’t put a foot in Cuba so far and they don’t understand our reality here. So why? And I think I don’t have again just one answer for that, but for me it is about the way that they want to portray us. They don’t care about freedom or what is a freedom speech or whatever in Cuba. They don’t care. It’s the same people that are trying to criminalize social justice in Florida. They’re criminalized Black protesting the United States. They’re supporting. They have access to gun and NRA in the United States. They don’t care about social justice or equality or whatever. They’re just trying to portray us as a failed state. They need to portray, and the media is helping a lot about this.
For example, why the ministry are not covering what is happened with the Havana syndrome? Two new studies, two new studies from the NIH say that there is no evidence that these people that were part of the US diplomats here in Havana has brain damage. That’s throw apart the whole theory that they have brain damage and that’s the beginning of a serial of sanctions, increase of sanctions on the Cuban people and on Cuba, and they never are covering that. And we have to watch 60 minutes from the last week and then say that they have new evidence. New evidence from what? New evidence from where? Why media are covering that instead of doing journalists for the beginning and trying to get what is behind of all these policies that United States have been wanting for more than 60 years now on Cuba?
Ju-Hyun:
Thank you so much for those explanations. For our audience members who may be unfamiliar Havana syndrome, what Liz was referring to was a theorized syndrome that was exclusively afflicting US diplomatic personnel stationed in Havana. And at the time that this was reported, the State Department alleged that the Cubans were using an unknown sonic weapon to specifically target their personnel. In repeated medical examination since then, it’s been proven time and again that there likely were no such actual physical symptoms that people were experiencing, and consequently, there’s just no basis that these US diplomatic staffs were the victims of a Cuban sonic attack as was described at the time. I want to close us out by looking at this headline from Bloomberg Media, from Juan Pablo Spinetto.
It says Communist Cuba is on the brink of collapse. I wanted to bring this in because this is the dominant narrative that we’re seeing from corporate media in this moment that the crisis in Cuba is reaching a point of no return. Shortly after the protests on March 17th or 18th, there were a number of social media accounts alleging that the protests were specifically targeted at getting rid of the socialist system altogether, and some of the other media coverage has also tied in recent price hikes, which were announced in Cuba earlier this year in response to the crisis of food and fuel that is currently taking place. I’m wondering if you two can provide us with a little bit more information, shine a little light on the real situation. What is the real level of political thinking and satisfaction in Cuba at the moment despite all these challenges, and is there any merit to the claims that we are seeing in US-based media that the Cuban government is reneging on socialism, it’s pursuing austerity and that it’s ultimately going to be unable to fix this economic crisis or preserve itself politically?
Liz Oliva Fernández:
Well, the level of satisfaction is really low, but I just want to come back to the title because they say like Communist Cuba is about to collapse or something like that. I can’t remember exactly the words that they use. And I say, but I’m so sorry, but I have an opportunity to read the entire article. But I don’t know if they explain why. I always say the situation in Cuba is very bad. People are really frustrated and angry. You can see the numbers of migration, people trying to leave the country if they have the opportunity. If they know they just are angry, we don’t know about the future. We don’t know about what is going on in Cuba and what has happened, is going to happen in the next few years because the most of these answers we can’t answer back here. The most of this question we can answer here in Cuba because it not depends on us.
The situation in Cuba nowadays is not just depend on us. The most of them depends on the United States, on the United States policy on Cuba. That’s the whole thing. That’s the whole question. That was people, and it’s curious because maybe when you go down here and you talk to the people and you ask them, “Okay, what do you think about what is going on? What do you think about US sanctions?” And the most of them, maybe, I don’t know, I don’t want to talk about percent, but maybe small percent of people, they want to talk to you about, okay, this is the way the sanctions affect us because the sanctions is too far away from us. You can point with your finger to the sanctions, you can point with your fingers to someone that is not against Manolo. The sanctions not against Manolo, it’s not against Liz Oliva.
So you need to have the big picture, have the big understanding that how the sanctions affect you and your family. Because they don’t want to point. They want solutions and the solutions, many of them are not in Cuba. They don’t depend on Cuba. So how did you feel if your entire life is someone else because of the actions of someone else? Depends on the actions of someone else. How do you feel? Frustrated, angry? I can’t understand the whole thing. I just want solutions. I just want to start to survive. People now used to say we were happy and we didn’t know. We were happy and we didn’t know because the situation is getting worse. We have always we have been a scarcity of so many things. I think that we live in a [inaudible 00:36:06] because we always have been access to basic things, small things, but is there things that we need to survive, to live, to live a happy life?
Not with many things, with many material things, but we are people that we have a strong spirit and we take care of each other even with the hard menu to offer to the other one. But we are happy. That’s why you understand that so many children in the US have mental problems and so many children in Cuba, even when they don’t have candies or chocolate or whatever or toys, they’re so happy and they laugh the whole time because we have a different society. And to understand that you need to be able to live and to experience Cuba and the whole thing, so now we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. That’s the reality and that’s sad.
And everybody is like the people who have the privilege like me to having traveled to the United States and study, taking time to dedicate to study how the sanctions were, how the sanctions has been affecting not just me and my family, but the whole country. Everybody is paying attention to the next elections in the US, who is going to win? Because most of the people, they think that Biden is going to do something in the second term if they have a second term. But oh, is Biden going to win the second term? Is Donald Trump win the second term? What is going on in the United States and how the elections in the United States is going to affect the life of 11 million of people in Cuba?
Manolo De Los Santos:
Well, I fully agree with Liz. I mean, I would just add that headlines like that are a sign of Washington’s wishful thinking, but it also has dangerous connotations and it’s a connotation that we have to defeat in many ways. One, the idea that the crisis that Cuba is facing is Cuban made. It is of their own doing. I think that has to be corrected in as much as possible because always these headlines, but generally US mainstream media always seeks to hide the hand of how the empire works day and night to destroy the livelihoods of the Cuban people. And we know of it through US documents. We know it through the Mallory Memorandum, but we see it concretely in the policies that US government takes. The other element that I think is important to clarify is that this is not the first time that the US government and the US media talk about a collapse in Cuba.
They were saying the same thing in the early 90s when I would say Cuba faced an even worse scenario because they had effectively lost their major trading partners in Eastern Europe and in the Soviet Union, they lost most of their income overnight. The country was reduced in what we now describe as a peak oil crisis, meaning very little to no fuel was entering the country. I mean, in fact, a level of food crisis unprecedented, and yet the Cuban people survived, and I think they survived in part to what Liz mentions, which is a different ethic, a different approach to collective well-being.
A society that ultimately puts human beings first and is despite all the odds and all the challenges, is trying to figure out how to maintain a certain quality of life within the possible for the majority of its people without sacrificing anyone. And I think that makes a difference. I don’t know if in the United States we would be able to respond to a crisis of this type if all of a sudden millions of people in the United States lost access to food, fuel, and medicine at major scale. Talking about, let’s say more than half of the US population, would our society be able to respond so collectively, so calmly, so grounded in their humanity to such a level of crisis? I would think not.
Liz Oliva Fernández:
I just want to add that you have your own crisis to resolve, and there is still [inaudible 00:40:23]. Just look at the situation of the Black people in the United States in general, the access to food, to real food, not just snack food, to medicines, to healthcare system, to everything. The mortality of Black moms in the United States. That’s another point you have to face off. That’s the thing for me when people say, “Okay, but what kind of things the United States have to do in order to help Cuba?” And I always respond the same. We don’t need help. We just need that… Leave us alone. That’s the only thing that United States have to do. We have to deal with our own problems or our stuff, but you can’t intervene with us, not for good, not for bad, just don’t intervene at all.
Ju-Hyun:
Precisely. And as you’re both saying, we can look at the state of the United States today and see a number of crises that are already taking place. There is a crisis of hunger, there is a crisis, black maternal mortality, there is a crisis of education, of healthcare. And we can also see the ways that our government is actually responding, which is in most cases to simply leave people out in the cold. For regular listeners of The Real News, you’ll be familiar with our coverage of the recent bridge collapse in Baltimore, of the Train derailment in East Palestine, all the ways that the workers and communities that are left behind after those catastrophes have been left to twist in the wind. And that really speaks to the different ethical social approaches that the two of you are talking about. Now, before we say goodbye, I’m hoping that you can close us out by just talking about the work that you’re currently engaged in, how listeners can continue to support you and stay involved.
Manolo De Los Santos:
Well, out of The People’s Forum, we’re actively engaging in political education about what’s taking place in Cuba and overall trying to build awareness, not just about Cuba itself, but obviously the history and the context that comes into what we know as US-Cuba relations today. We’re also engaging in major initiatives to support the Cuban people. One of the most latest examples of that is our Let Cuba Live Bread for our Neighbors campaign, which has the goal of sending 800 tons of wheat flour to Cuba within the next month with the aspiration of being able to give at least 5 million Cubans a piece of bread every day for a month in order to help support them through this difficult moment. Not as a sign of charity, but actually as a sign of encouragement to their people as they continue to struggle and fight, but also to raise light on what the Marco Rubios of our world are constantly saying and raising as truth, but that we know are actually lies when it comes to the extent of this blockade and how it affects the Cuban people on a day-to-day basis.
Liz Oliva Fernández:
Well, in the case of Belly of the Beast, and Belly of the Beast we are coming with two new documentaries. Hardliner on the Hudson that is focuses Bob Menendez and the role that he played during the Biden administration to support the sanctions against Cuba and all the corruption scandals that are involve him. On the other one is UpHill on the Hill that is focuses in Biden administration and the politics that are having place in Washington. They’re trying to maintain the sanctions in Cuba. We interview Congress people, we interview the people who actually live in Washington DC and what they think about. Not about the sanctions against Cuba, also about Cuba being the states sponsor of terrorism. And what does that mean? If you want to know more about these two new documentaries, you can stay tuned and subscribe to Belly of the Beast Cuba future channel, and you have the premiere in the upcoming months, May.
Ju-Hyun:
Wonderful. We’ll make sure to share the links to both of those initiatives that you mentioned in the show notes. So if you’re listening to this, go ahead and jump into the podcast description and you’ll be able to find a link to help support the drive to deliver much needed flower to our comrades in Cuba, and also to keep up with Belly of the Beast in anticipation of their soon to be released documentaries. That’ll be all for today. Thank you so much again, Manolo and Liz. Before we close, I’d like to give a shout-out to The Real News Studio team, Cameron Granadino, David Hebden and Caleb Rivera for making this episode possible. And finally, to you, our audience. Thank you for listening, and we’ll catch you next time here on The Real News.
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<category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312058</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="This aerial photo taken on April 5, 2024, shows tourists snorkelling above bleached and dead coral around Lizard Island on the Great Barrier Reef, located 270 kilometres (167 miles) north of the city of Cairns. Photo by DAVID GRAY/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>"The announcement of the fourth global bleaching event is an urgent call to do two things: reduce greenhouse gas emissions and work together to prioritize resilient coral reefs for conservation."]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="This aerial photo taken on April 5, 2024, shows tourists snorkelling above bleached and dead coral around Lizard Island on the Great Barrier Reef, located 270 kilometres (167 miles) north of the city of Cairns. Photo by DAVID GRAY/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147843028-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
<div class="wp-block-media-text is-stacked-on-mobile" style="grid-template-columns:30% auto"><figure class="wp-block-media-text__media"><img decoding="async" width="600" height="150" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?resize=600%2C150&ssl=1" alt="Common Dreams Logo" class="wp-image-268291 size-full" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=600&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?resize=300%2C75&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=370&ssl=1 370w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=400&ssl=1 400w" sizes="(max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure><div class="wp-block-media-text__content">
This story originally appeared in <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/coral-reefs-fourth-global-bleaching" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Common Dreams</a> on Apr. 16, 2024. It is shared here with permission under a Creative Commons (CC BY-NC-ND 3.0) license.
</div></div>
Scientists said Monday that the world’s coral reefs are facing a fourth global bleaching event as the fossil fuel-driven climate emergency pushes ocean temperatures to <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/ocean-temperature" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">record highs</a>, imperiling the critical underwater ecosystems that sustain thousands of species.
The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and the International Coral Reef Initiative (ICRI)—which NOAA co-chairs—said they documented coral bleaching in the northern and southern hemispheres of every major ocean basin on Earth between February 2023 and April of this year. It could be the worst global bleaching event on record.
“Since early 2023, mass bleaching of coral reefs has been confirmed throughout the tropics including Florida in the U.S.; the Caribbean; Brazil; the eastern Tropical Pacific (including Mexico, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Panama, and Colombia); Australia’s Great Barrier Reef; large areas of the South Pacific (including Fiji, Vanuatu, Tuvalu, Kiribati, the Samoas, and French Polynesia); the Red Sea (including the Gulf of Aqaba); the Persian Gulf; and the Gulf of Aden,” the organizations said in a <a href="https://icriforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/NOAA-confirms-fourth-global-coral-bleaching-event_EMBARGOEDuntil_8am_15Apr2024.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">statement</a>.
“NOAA has received confirmation of widespread bleaching across other parts of the Indian Ocean basin as well, including in Tanzania, Kenya, Mauritius, the Seychelles, Tromelin, Mayotte, and off the western coast of Indonesia,” they added.
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“More than half the reefs on the planet have basically experienced bleaching-level heat stress in the last year.”
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Derek Manzello, coordinator of NOAA’s Coral Reef Watch, said that “as the world’s oceans continue to warm, coral bleaching is becoming more frequent.”
Excessively warm water causes corals to expel algae from their tissues, causing the organisms to <a href="https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/coral_bleach.html" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">turn white</a>. While they can recover, such bleaching is evidence that corals are under significant stress and at risk of death.
The latest global bleaching event is the second in the last 10 years and “should be a global wake-up call,” Manzello <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2024/04/15/global-coral-bleaching-ocean-temperatures/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">told</a> The Washington Post.
“More than half the reefs on the planet have basically experienced bleaching-level heat stress in the last year,” said Manzello.
NOAA and ICRI’s statement comes as scientists around the world are voicing growing alarm over high ocean temperatures. Research <a href="https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/18/climate/ocean-heat-record-year-climate-intl/index.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">released last month</a> showed that global ocean surface temperatures had broken records every day of the year up to that point, underscoring the need to aggressively rein in fossil fuel production and use.
“Temperatures are off the charts,” Emily Darling, director of coral reefs at the Wildlife Conservation Society, said Monday. “While many corals are suffering from extreme heat stress and bleaching, some locations and species show different types of natural resilience. Finding and conserving these priority coral reefs are critical to any global strategy to safeguard the planet’s oceans and blue economies.”
“The announcement of the fourth global bleaching event is an urgent call to do two things: reduce greenhouse gas emissions and work together to prioritize resilient coral reefs for conservation,” Darling added.
]]></content:encoded>
<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312058</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>Former Ecuador FM says embassy raid signals a deeper political crisis</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/former-ecuador-fm-says-embassy-raid-signals-a-deeper-political-crisis</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ju-Hyun Park]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Tue, 16 Apr 2024 17:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Ecuador]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312050</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Picture released by API showing Ecuadorian police special forces attempting to break into the Mexican embassy in Quito to arrest Ecuador's former Vice President Jorge Glas, on April 5, 2024. Photo by ALBERTO SUAREZ/API/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?w=2025&ssl=1 2025w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Novice President Daniel Noboa overplayed his hand and now faces international backlash—all because his administration is fundamentally unable to address Ecuador's crisis of insecurity and poverty.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Picture released by API showing Ecuadorian police special forces attempting to break into the Mexican embassy in Quito to arrest Ecuador's former Vice President Jorge Glas, on April 5, 2024. Photo by ALBERTO SUAREZ/API/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?w=2025&ssl=1 2025w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2133957552.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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Ecuador has been thrust into the international spotlight following a flagrantly illegal raid on the Mexican embassy on April 5. President Daniel Noboa ordered the raid to arrest former Vice President Jorge Glas, who had sought asylum on the embassy grounds since Dec. 2023. Mexico has responded by severing diplomatic ties with Ecuador and filing a complaint with the ICJ, specifically requesting that the court expel Ecuador from the UN until an apology is given. Governments across the Americas and the world have joined the chorus of denunciations, noting the violation of diplomatic immunity as a severe breach of international law.
Ecuador once stood out in the region for its relatively low crime rate and steadily improving social progress, yet its fortunes have radically reversed in the past decade. The fall of the left-wing Correistas unleashed a tide of neoliberalism and narco-trafficking in the country, sending poverty and crime soaring. Noboa, who is the son of Ecuador’s wealthiest man, came to power on promises to address the security crisis—but so far, has only managed to haul the country into a three-month long state of emergency. To understand recent events and place them in the proper context of Ecuador’s contemporary politics, The Real News speaks with <a href="https://twitter.com/GuillaumeLong" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Guillaume Long</a>, Ecuador’s former Foreign Minister.
<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
Studio Production: Ju-Hyun Park Post-Production: Alina Nehlich, Cameron Granadino
</blockquote>
<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Ju-Hyun:
Welcome to the Real News podcast. I’m your host, Ju-Hyun Park, Engagement Editor here at The Real News. Today, we’re discussing major developments in the nation of Ecuador, where a recent government raid on the Mexican Embassy is sparking a major international row.
As always, before we start, I’d like to take a second to appreciate all you listeners out there. The Real News is a totally independent, not-for-profit news outlet. We don’t charge you subscription fees, we don’t torment you with ads and we don’t have big corporate backers. We think it’s important for our integrity to remain this way so that you, our audience, knows that we can’t be bought. But making the news costs money, and the only way we can keep doing that is through your donations.
Help us keep plying you with the kinds of thoughtful, informed reporting and love. Head over to therealnews.com/donate to become a monthly sustainer of our work. And if you want to stay in touch and get regular updates about the latest and greatest stories from us, then sign up for our free newsletter at therealnews.com/sign-up.
Last Friday, April 5th, Ecuador’s right-wing government, led by President Daniel Noboa, kicked off an international firestorm when it raided the Mexican Embassy in Quito to arrest Ecuador’s former vice president, Jorge Glas, who had been living on the compound since December last year seeking asylum.
Former Ecuadorian President, Rafael Correa, who Glas served under as VP has since reported that Glas has attempted suicide following his arrest and is currently on hunger strike in prison. Mexico swiftly severed diplomatic ties with Ecuador following the raid and governments across the region and around the world have condemned Ecuador’s actions.
Even the Organization of American States and the US have made statements decrying the embassy raid. Mexico has kicked up the pressure by filing a complaint with the International Court of Justice, asking the court to suspend Ecuador’s membership in the UN until an apology is made.
Joining The Real News today is Guillaume Long, Ecuador’s former Minister of Foreign Affairs, and former Minister of Knowledge and Human Talent. Long is a trained historian who holds a PhD in international politics from the University of London. He is currently a senior research fellow with the Center for Economic and Policy Research. Guillaume, welcome back to The Real News.
Guillaume Long:
Thank you very much for having me on the show. It’s a real pleasure.
Ju-Hyun:
Let’s go ahead and get started with the basics. Why was the Noboa administration after Jorge Glas? And why were they willing to go as far as to raid the embassy of a foreign country?
Guillaume Long:
Yeah, that’s a great question, and there are a few hypotheses but I don’t think we have a clear answer. I think part of it is that there’s a lot of unawareness in the Noboa government. I mean, we could go further and call it incompetence. It’s not a very well-lubricated political machine, to say the least. And a lot of people, it’s their first time in government. He’s very young himself, and I just think … I mean, it sounds crazy, but I just think they weren’t expecting this international response, this international backlash.
I mean, it’s pretty obvious that if you’re going to storm an embassy it’s going to be bad, but they just thought there would be a cost, for sure, but they didn’t expect as high a cost on the international front. Ecuador right now is completely isolated, as you rightly noted.
And so the cost, that was the cost, which I think they underestimated, but the win for them was, I think it was an electoral gamble. There are elections on April 21st in Ecuador, a referendum with 11 questions, and we saw in the polls on a few questions the government was starting to look like it might lose. The government is the one proposing this referendum. And there were a few questions that were looking tight.
The assumption being that the government was going to win this referendum from a few, I mean, it’s a recent government, recently sworn in, Noboa has only been in power since November. He’s kind of still in his honeymoon. There’s a very desperate situation in Ecuador concerning security and insecurity with extremely high homicide rates and a lot of narco crime, and Ecuador’s like the new frontier of the war on drugs right now.
So people are desperate, and so Noboa launched a referendum on security issues. He also managed to sneak in a couple of questions that have to do with economics and directly benefit his own business empire and his family’s business empire. But the other nine questions were on security issues, enabling the military to get involved in law enforcement, longer sentences, allowing for extradition of Ecuadorians, essentially, to the United States and those kinds of measures.
So, those measures in the context of the spiraling insecurity and the spiraling homicide rate in Ecuador was, yeah, I mean, they were bound to be popular. And despite this, we’ve seen in the last few weeks, the polls still favoring Noboa on most questions, but not favoring Noboa on a couple of questions, particularly the economic questions that he sneaked in.
So, I think he was worried that he might not win and he really needs this win because he’s only a caretaker president. He’s in there to finish his predecessor’s mandate. His predecessor faced an impeachment process and then eventually resigned and so had to call for new elections. And the Ecuadorian constitution allowed for these new elections, which Noboa won, but he’s only allowed to finish this mandate.
So, his mandate finishes in May next year, 2025, and there will be elections in February. So he has very little time. This is an electoral year, and he wanted this referendum to do a few more months on the victory on a high and have some political oxygen. And he really wants to be reelected, so he basically stormed the Mexican Embassy.
Now, why would that be popular? I’m not sure it is actually going to be popular. I think that it might be a complete miscalculation. But he definitely did that I think as part of his electoral campaign to look like he’s a strong man, that he has an iron fist that he he has resolve. Because Ecuador’s insecurity situation is so dire and Ecuador is fast becoming a narco state, his goal is to project this image that he is a tough guy and to storm an embassy achieves that.
And of course, inside the embassy, he was achieving a double goal because inside the embassy, there’s a senior opponent to his government, a former Correista vice president, former President Rafael Correa’s vice president, who’s actually been persecuted over these years. It’s quite a terrible situation he’s faced. He’s just come out of four-and-a-half years in jail and there was a new court case started against him. He was wanted, there was a pretrial detention order, not even a guilty sentence yet, but a pretrial detention order. And he thought, “Right, the Ecuadorian judiciary is completely politicized,” and therefore sought asylum in this embassy.
So, Noboa thought, “Right, I’m going to get this guy. Nobody’s going to run away from Ecuadorian justice, and I don’t care whether I violate the sanctity of the Mexican Embassy. And I’m going to look like a tough guy, I’m going to win these elections.” I think that’s the long answer to your question of why Noboa did this.
But I do think there is a miscalculation there because the international response is huge. It’s isolating Ecuador. I don’t think Noboa was expecting this. He was this young guy who’d just been elected who was looking like a new promise in the region because he’s so young and a new wind of change in the region. And now he just looks like someone who’s a tyrant, anti-democratic, someone who violates international law, and I can’t see a lot of his neighbors wanting to be in the picture with him or inviting him to their country. I think he’s going to be pretty isolated for the remainder of his term.
Ju-Hyun:
Thank you. That’s some really important context to just help our listeners understand the general political situation, and specifically what’s happening with Noboa.
As you’re mentioning, Noboa is a political novice. I believe he’s something like 36 years old, very young to be a head of state. Also the son of one of Ecuador’s richest families, literally the child of a billionaire who has now ascended to this very important position within the government. And I want us to talk a little bit about the program that Noboa has been pushing, because Noboa is, as you’re saying, really running on issues of security and insecurity within the country, really pushing the so-called tough-on-crime approach. And since January has actually had the entire country under a state of emergency because of the escape of notorious drug trafficker and cartel leader, José Adolfo Macías Villamar, better known as his alias, Fito.
So I’m wondering, we get this narrative of Ecuador is falling apart, it’s got this massive crime problem. I’m not trying to say that these are not in fact issues, but I would appreciate a little bit more insight into what exactly is the situation on the ground for Ecuadorian people right now? And what is the Noboa agenda doing or not doing to actually address people’s real needs?
Guillaume Long:
Yeah. So, the situation is really bad, undoubtedly. And you just mentioned January 8th and 9th, huge crisis with the escape of several drug lords, including alias Fito. Several drug lords, others as well escaping on those days from the penitentiary system under Noboa’s watch. So that didn’t look great for him. So that’s just sort of an addendum to your prior question, right? I mean, because he didn’t look so great, because he let all these drug barons flee or escape. Well, I mean, he didn’t let it happen, but it was under his watch. He wanted to look tough here. And despite the fact that this is not at all a drug baron, he’s got nothing to do with it, it’s a political opponent, and I would argue someone who’s facing a lot of political persecution and lawfare, which is something we can also talk about.
But yeah, the situation in Ecuador was really bad. Last year, 2023, Ecuador closed with one of the highest homicide rates in the Americas. Just to contextualize, Ecuador was traditionally pretty peaceful place in South America. It didn’t suffer from the rampant insecurity that its two larger neighbors have historically suffered from, so Colombia and Peru. It was one of the few countries that, well, first of all was not a producer of cocaine. Colombia is right on the other side of the border. It was a transit country. It had some issues there. And also because Ecuador was dollarized, the economy was dollarized in the year 2000, so there was some incentive for criminal organization to launder money in Ecuador. So I mean, it wasn’t completely immune from the drug trade, but it was always considered a much lesser problem than many other countries in the region.
In fact, when the Left arrived in power in 2007, when Rafael Correa was elected Ecuador’s homicide rate, the homicide rate is a pretty good proxy, particularly in the context of the war on drugs, for how bad the security situation is, right? And Ecuador’s homicide rate inherited by Correa in 2007 was 16, 17 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants. That’s the Latin American average. So, it’s not great because Latin America has a higher homicide rate. But compared to some of its immediate neighbor, including Colombia and other countries that have really struggled historically with insecurity and with narco trafficking driven organization, it was relatively benign.
But despite this, Correa really invested in first improving the efficiency of his security system and the police and the intelligence services. And so, on the one hand, so kind of a traditional, if you like, law enforcement approach, but also with some decentralization of police capacity, so sort of neighborhood police forces, which was a whole model that was actually heralded by the Inter-American Development Bank and the OAS itself as a successful model, but still law enforcement approach on the one hand.
And then on the other hand, of course, the social approach, the long-term reduction of poverty and inequality with a massive reduction of poverty during his tenure year mandate under Correa and probably the champion in the region. Ecuador was the champion in the region in the reduction of inequality. And so, this resulted this dual approach, better security, but also redistribution, social, labor and human rights resulted in the homicide rate dropping from 16 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants to 5.8 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants. This is one of the greatest success stories in crime reduction and in violent crime reduction and reduction of lethal violence in Latin America in just a decade. 5.8 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in 2017.
Well, last year in 2023, the year closed in Ecuador with 46 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants. So we’ve gone from 5.8 homicides to 46 homicides per a 100,000 people in just six years. This is one of the sharpest increases in Latin American history of the murder rate. And it can be explained by a number of things, but primarily the rolling back of the state, the closing of institutions, the growth of poverty. Before the COVID pandemic, the poverty rate in Ecuador had already risen by 17% between 2017 and the end of 2019. And after the COVID pandemic, Ecuador has been the country that’s had the slowest post-COVID recuperation. So the worst post-COVID growth rates in the region. So really bad on the economic front, really bad on the social front. Of course, the COVID pandemic was a problem throughout the region. In fact, there was an increase in crime throughout the region in Latin America, but it was particularly bad in Ecuador because of what I’ve just described.
And then just neoliberal austerity, closing down ministries. Incredible, but Ecuador actually, that closed down the Ministry of the Interior, which runs the police. It closed down the Ministry of Justice, which runs the penitentiary system. Closed down the Coordinating Ministry of Security, which was one also hailed as a success story, including by inter-American institutions, such as I just mentioned the Inter-American Development Bank, which is not exactly a leftist institution, but still saw this as an efficient oversight and coordination between the different security forces and intelligence services, and so on. They closed all that down to cut the budget. Neoliberal austerity came, and that was it. That was the end of a number of institutions that had been successful.
So the end result is from 2020, 2021 onwards, after the pandemic, you start seeing the loss of the Ecuadorian state’s control over key parts of Ecuador’s territory. There’s a vacuum and organized crime loves vacuum, right? Criminal organization, just that’s what they do. They fill vacuums. And particularly on border areas. And also Ecuador has seven maritime ports that are of significant importance on the Pacific coast, and therefore those were very interesting, obviously, for narco trafficking organizations. So a lot of the fighting has been over the control of those maritime ports.
But what really happened is that Ecuador lost control of its penitentiary system. And the loss of the control of the prison meant that gangs operated from the prisons, including the hierarchy of the gangs, the big drug barons, the big bosses of the organizations, and prison massacres started occurring. So, since 2021, 500 people have been literally massacred in large scale massacres like 70 people here, 40 people there, 60 people there being killed. One pavilion storming another pavilion and killing everybody. So rival gangs fighting each other.
And it’s been very, very traumatic because, as I’ve just explained, Ecuador was a relatively peaceful country in the regional context. In fact, Ecuadorians called their country the Island of Peace because they were used to hearing terrible news coming from either Ecuador or Peru. Ecuador didn’t have a history or as much of a story of civil armed conflict as Colombia did, or even as Peru did. And so this was very traumatic, and we’re talking about massacres with beheadings and gruesome stuff.
So that’s how we arrive to 2023 in the war being elected, the campaign being fought fundamentally on security issues, because people are desperate, and people are now leaving the country en masse, so you’ve got a huge migration crisis. Ecuadorians are now the first or second, it changes every other month in numbers on the US southern borders trying to cross into the US from Mexico. It’s Venezuelan and Ecuadorians, and Ecuadorians often, late 2022 and 2023, the number of Ecuadorians actually overtook the number of Venezuelans trying to cross the border. And obviously they go through the Darien Gap, which is run by, the whole traffic of people is run by terrible mafias and gangs. And yeah, it’s a really bad state of affairs for Ecuador.
And so, young Daniel Noboa one wins the campaign on a gung-ho security campaign, law and order approach. Obviously this is inevitably conservative. When you have campaigns that are run on law and order issues, it’s usually bad news. You have candidates competing amongst themselves to see who’s going to be the most gung-ho kind of approach to crime and all this kind of stuff.
And because under his watch there’d been further actions and violence being committed by these gangs, he’s had to double down and look tough. And so, as you rightly said, we now have got a state of exception with a curfew and now this super hawkish referendum in which he’s kind of, as I said, sneaked in a couple of questions that benefit his companies. But the purpose of the referendum is essentially security driven. And yeah, he’s just wanting to look like the new Bukele in South America. That’s essentially what he’s trying to do.
Ju-Hyun:
I’m glad you brought in Bukele because I want to close off this conversation with a little bit of discussion about this rise of what I think can be described as a new Latin American Right that’s emerging in the region. The chronicle you’re giving of Ecuador’s recent history is very illustrative of a lot of the core problems that are facing many countries just in the developing world, in particular in the Global South. And really the dual approaches that can be taken to the question of insecurity, to the question of people’s wellbeing and quality of life, do we primarily take a tough on crime approach? Which has at its basis, this kind of neoliberal logic wherein we divest from the commons, we take resources away from the social question, resources away from the economic side in the sense of lifting up the vast majority of people in favor of privatization, in favor of expanding the repressive capacities of the state. Is that the way that we solve the development question?
Or is it more in line with what you were describing under Correa where there is this dual approach where the social question is given its proper place and proper resources, so that the people have institutions that are supporting them so that there can be function in government. And then at the same time recognizing that, yes, narco organizations are a serious threat to, and that there has to be law enforcement efforts to combat them. Wanted to frame some of your comments more recently.
But getting back to this comparison to Bukele, I mean, Bukele, Javier Milei in Argentina, Noboa in Ecuador, these all seem like some version of the same guy. They’re young, somewhat inexperienced political leaders from pretty wealthy backgrounds who are pushing platforms that emphasize being tough on crime, and also more covertly want the country to be more friendly to foreign investment, ignoring the history of how institutions like the IMF, how proximity to the dollar, in Bukele’s case trying to turn his country into a Bitcoin island, have not really resulted in great outcomes for the vast majority of working people.
So, I’m wondering if you can comment on how Noboa fits into this rising new Latin American Right, and how the :eft can effectively respond?
Guillaume Long:
Yeah, it’s a great question. I mean, it’s actually a bit of a surprise in Noboa’s case because unlike Milei who announced this kind of libertarian anarcho-capitalist from the campaign, Noboa didn’t do that. Noboa in fact ran on a platform which was essentially about putting an end to the polarization between left and right. So he argued that he was the candidate of, the typical candidate of post-politics. “I’m not a political guy, I’m an outsider,” which of course is clearly a right-wing sort of approach to politics anyway. There’s no such thing as post-politics or an absence of ideology. We know that.
But still for Correismo defeated in the second round, Noboa won 52 to 48 against the Left, it’s important just to briefly establish that the Left which, and the strongest force on the left is Correismo by far. Then Correa’s, the Citizen’s Revolution is still the strongest political force in the land. It is the country that has the largest block in the Parliament, in the National Assembly, of Congress, if you like. It is the party. It’s the only real functioning party. It’s the only party out of the eight candidacies in 2023 that had both its candidates for president, vice president actually being party members. All the other parties, the other seven, neither the candidate for the presidency or the vice presidency, and all seven cases were actual members of the parties that were launching them, which I think says a lot.
So you do have a strong party. It’s also a party that has a lot of territorial presence. It’s got the mayors of the capital city, Quito, of the Guayaquil, the other big city Cuenca, the third-largest cities, all the main governor, we call them prefectos, but essentially the equivalent of US governors of the different provinces, of the most important, demographically important provinces are in the hands of Correismo, of the Left.
So it’s very much a thriving party, and it wins in the first round, usually with 32%, 33% of the vote. But in the second round, it’s everybody against the Left, including the media. And I would argue in a very sort of surreptitious fashion, the United States. And there, you lose, or the Left loses twice in a row, now 52 to 48. So it doesn’t manage to win the presidency in the second round, but it’s still very much a strong political force that’s part of the political system now, which is interesting to think of the Left as part of the political system because of course before Correa the left was totally marginal. It wasn’t at all a part of the political system.
So, there is a climate of polarization because if the Left wasn’t strong, you wouldn’t have this polarization. It’s because there’s a real possibility of a return of the Left that you have this kind of polarization between Left and Right, and between the very, very right-wing media and the Left, which is essentially the media is really the party of the Right in Ecuador.
So, Noboa arrives and says, “I am against this polarization. I will transcend this polarization.” And he actually crucially says, “I am not anti anything.” And because a lot of people define themselves as anti-Correistas, people understand that he’s going to stop the persecution against Correismo. Nobody was expecting him to be a leftist. As you rightly said. He is the son of the most wealthy man in Ecuador, billionaire, banana magnate, Alvaro Noboa, who actually Correa defeated in 2006 the first time he won, and now it’s his son who is running the show.
So, nobody expecting him to be particularly progressive, but at least, and the climate’s been so bad for Correismo with a lot of persecution, not unlike what’s happened in other parts of Latin America, including in Brazil against Lula, and so on and so forth, that it was kind of like, “Oh, maybe at least we can normalize democracy a little bit.” There can be a little bit less aggressiveness in comparison to the two prior governments, which really judicialized politics or politicized the justice, what we call lawfare.
And he started off making some deals. But as soon as the security situation deteriorated, he made the call to the US, “Come and save me.” He made the call to SouthCom, “Come and save me.” And from one day to the next, we see a renewed intransigence, a renewed anti-democratic intransigence towards the Left. All the possible negotiations agreements again, as an end to to all this, judicialization of politics starts anew, including against Jorge Glas, who’s the guy that was seeking, was in the Mexican embassy who’d just been granted asylum by the Mexicans. And we get back, so back to the future situation, back to the past where we have a renewed political onslaught against the left.
So, what I’m trying to say here is that unlike Milei and Bukele, particularly unlike Milei, he has radicalized over the last few months, but he hadn’t originally announced that he was going to be a nostalgic of the military dictatorship, nostalgic of right-wing political persecution, libertarian. He seemed like some kind of business guy, but a bit of a pragmatist who only had 14 members of parliament, whereas the Revolución Sudana, Correa’s party, had 50 members of Parliament, a big difference between 50 and the President’s 14. And so he needed to make deals and he was prepared to make deals, and he wanted to lower the climate of polarization.
With this move, moving into the embassy, assaulting the Mexican embassy and violating every rule in the diplomatic rule book, including the 1961 Vienna Convention, the 1954 Caracas Convention on asylum, the 1951 Geneva Convention on the status of refugees, and so on and so forth, I could continue, he really has irked the international community. He’s lost I think, some support domestically, including on the Right, because some people who are more institutionalists, if you like, don’t really want to be associated with this kind of rogue behavior. And he’s really doubled down and gone back to this polarized politics of trying to basically annihilate the Left.
So far, it hasn’t worked. Despite all the persecution, despite former President Correa himself being granted political asylum by Belgium for political persecution, despite a lot of Correa’s former, a lot of people in Correa’s former cabinet, ministers, former members of parliament, whatever, being in asylum in Mexico, in Argentina, in other parts of the world, the party still exists. As I’ve just argued, it’s actually the only really functioning party in Ecuador, the one that has membership and has the capacity to have a large group in Congress, and to have a number of mayors and governors and so on.
So far, that strategy’s failed, but Noboa is doubling down on it, which is something he is betraying the platform that he was elected on. So, we’ll have to see how that goes for him and whether the Ecuadorian people accompany him in this process. I think if he manages to deliver on the security front, the Ecuadorian people are so desperate that he might be in for a chance to win next, I mean, it’s a long way away, but next year’s presidential election. If he doesn’t, if he doesn’t deliver on that front and he continues the same as old practice of lawfare and cracking down on civil and political rights and locking up people and so on, I imagine that’s not going to work, play out too well for him.
Either way, the Left, because I think of successful governance between 2007 and 2017 is still alive and well, despite the fact that a lot of its leadership is in exile, and I think eventually this strategy of trying to censor it and just stamp it out is not going to work and it will eventually be a return. One day, that second round of that presidential election is not going to be 52, 48, it’ll be 48 for 52. It’ll be the other way around. So I think that will eventually happened.
As a broader comment on the Latin American Right, yes, I think the big tragedy of Latin American politics over the last few years is that after the Pink Tide, which lifted 100 million people out of poverty between 2000 and 2012 and had unprecedented growth rate, you have to go all the way back to the commodities boom of the ’70s to have similar growth rates. And even that, it depends where, but it’s not always, well, it’s not always comparable. But yeah, you have to go back a long time to have similar growth rates. Certainly, the neoliberal decades of the ’80s and ’90s were disastrous, even in very orthodox economic terms, the very terms that the neoliberals used to evaluate their success, it was a radical failure.
So, after successful governance from the left of center, very heterogeneous Left in Latin America, one would have expected the right-wing, the right wing return, which happens from roughly 2015, 2016 onwards, and then is accompanied by Trump, one would have expected the right-wing return to learn from its mistakes of the past, to not bring back the policies of the ’80s and ’90s, to not bring back the IMF, to not bring back authoritarianism and to learn a little bit from the left, even if it’s just in a politically utilitarian fashion. But they didn’t. They really double down on neoliberal ideology in every possible aspect. And in fact became even more extreme applying certain forms of libertarianism.
And so, I think that’s a big tragedy because instead of acquiring a certain modernity in where you have sort of Left and Right still vying for power in a democratic context in Latin America, but having moved a little bit closer to the center and having a less feudal right wing, less of a plutocratic right wing defending the bank and the plantation, which is essentially what the Latin American right wing defends, the basically agro exports, primary economy, low levels of innovation, low levels of capitalist modernity, very feudal land-owning right wing. Instead of having that, you’ve got a doubling down and a radicalization of those pre-modern practices, of this right-wing ideology of wanting to get rid of the state.
And that’s a real historic failure, and it’s a real shame because it means that even if we have democratic pendulous wings, it’s going to be very difficult to have some kind of social and political pact that enables developmentalist policies to go forward over the long run we’ve seen in other parts of the world, including in East Asia. You do have a very pre-modern feudal right wing that prevents development, I would argue, in Latin America right now.
Ju-Hyun:
Well, thank you so much for your time and for this really in-depth analysis into what’s going on in Ecuador presently, and the historical context that it’s emerging from. Guillaume, how can our audience keep up with you?
Guillaume Long:
No, thanks for the invitation. It’s a real pleasure. Yeah, you can follow me on Twitter @GuillaumeLong. That’s G-U-I-L-L-A-U-M-E, Long. And I’m on other social networks, but I think Twitter’s a good start.
Ju-Hyun:
All right, excellent. Well, that’s all for today. Thanks again to Guillaume Long for stopping by. Before we close, I’d like to give a shout out to the Real News Studio team, Cameron Grenadino, David Hebden and Kayla Rivera, for making this episode possible. And to our audience, thank you once again for listening. We’ll catch you next time here on The Real News.
]]></content:encoded>
<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312050</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>Iran’s retaliatory attack on Israel is more than just ‘military theater’</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/irans-retaliatory-attack-on-israel-is-more-than-just-military-theater</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mondoweiss Palestine Bureau]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Mon, 15 Apr 2024 20:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Iran]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312018</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="642" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?fit=1024%2C642&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei delivers a speech at a program held at the Imam Khomeini Khosseini Hosseini in Tehran, Iran on April 03, 2022. Photo by Iranian Leader Press Office / Handout/Anadolu via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?w=2165&ssl=1 2165w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=300%2C188&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=1024%2C642&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=768%2C481&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=1536%2C963&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=2048%2C1284&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=1200%2C752&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=1568%2C983&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=2000%2C1254&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=400%2C251&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?fit=1024%2C642&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Inflated claims of Israel's remarkable military success in thwarting Iran's strikes ignores the fact that Iran was deliberately restrained to avoid regional war, while the strikes forced Israel to give away its defensive positions.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="642" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?fit=1024%2C642&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei delivers a speech at a program held at the Imam Khomeini Khosseini Hosseini in Tehran, Iran on April 03, 2022. Photo by Iranian Leader Press Office / Handout/Anadolu via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?w=2165&ssl=1 2165w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=300%2C188&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=1024%2C642&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=768%2C481&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=1536%2C963&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=2048%2C1284&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=1200%2C752&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=1568%2C983&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=2000%2C1254&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?resize=400%2C251&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2128601232.jpg?fit=1024%2C642&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
<div class="wp-block-media-text is-stacked-on-mobile" style="grid-template-columns:30% auto"><figure class="wp-block-media-text__media"><img decoding="async" width="755" height="153" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Untitled-design-21.jpg?resize=755%2C153&ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-272634 size-full" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Untitled-design-21.jpg?w=755&ssl=1 755w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Untitled-design-21.jpg?resize=300%2C61&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Untitled-design-21.jpg?resize=400%2C81&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Untitled-design-21.jpg?resize=706%2C143&ssl=1 706w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Untitled-design-21.jpg?w=370&ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 755px) 100vw, 755px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure><div class="wp-block-media-text__content">
This story originally appeared in <a href="https://mondoweiss.net/2024/04/why-irans-retaliatory-attack-against-israel-was-not-a-failure/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Mondoweiss</a> on Apr. 14, 2024. It is shared here with permission.
</div></div>
Shortly after Iran’s <a href="https://mondoweiss.net/2024/04/operation-al-aqsa-flood-day-191-iran-launches-retaliatory-strikes-on-israel-as-israeli-settlers-rampage-in-the-west-bank/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">retaliatory strike</a> on Israel concluded seemingly without incident, the full-throated proclamations of Israel’s defensive feats followed. Israeli military spokesperson Daniel Hagari <a href="https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bj0sw1kgr" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">said</a> that Iran’s retaliation had “failed” after 99% of the launched missiles and drones were intercepted by Israeli air defense systems. U.S. President Biden <a href="https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1779347601764020297" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">hailed</a> Israel’s “remarkable capacity” to defend against such “unprecedented attacks,” sending a message to Iran that it “cannot effectively threaten the security of Israel.”
Israeli military analyst <a href="https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-14/ty-article/.premium/fending-off-iran-is-a-major-israeli-achievement-retaliation-risks-all-out-war/0000018e-db86-df04-adae-ffd6537f0000" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Amos Harel</a> added more meat to these statements, regarding the “incredible operational capabilities” of the Israeli Air Force and its allies to have averted an ostensible disaster by preventing the targeting of key military bases. He even goes so far as to say that “one can assume that Tehran is extremely disappointed,” because the intention of the attack, according to Harel, was to showcase its capabilities by hitting military targets like Netavim Air Base:
<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
“It appears that the Iranians planned to destroy the base and the advanced F-35 fighter jets stationed there, which are the crown jewel of American aid to Israel. Iran failed completely.”
</blockquote>
Such assessments are mistaken on two counts: first, they confuse (or intentionally obfuscate) Iran’s intentions behind the attack, and second, they incorrectly interpret the attack’s results.
The first point is fairly uncontroversial. Virtually no one but Israeli talking heads believes that Iran launched the attack with the objective of widening the confrontation. Iran’s constant preparation of the international community by vociferously declaring its intentions <a href="https://mondoweiss.net/2024/04/operation-al-aqsa-flood-day-188-tensions-rise-over-potential-iranian-response-to-israeli-attack-on-consulate-in-damascus/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">a week in advance</a> and <a href="https://mondoweiss.net/2024/04/operation-al-aqsa-flood-day-189-israel-and-u-s-brace-for-iranian-retaliation-as-ceasefire-talks-stall/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">promising the U.S.</a> that its attack would be “under control” and conducted in a way that “avoids escalation” confirms that Iran was displaying considerable restraint in its strikes. Even Arab detractors of Iran mocked the attacks as an impotent exercise in political and military “theater.”
The second point though has been less talked about because interpreting the attack’s results has been filtered through the various propaganda prisms of different actors. It’s fairly obvious why Israelis like Harel — who for the past six months has inflected his military analysis with journalistic psy-ops directed at his fellow Israelis — would want to inflate Israeli military achievements. After <a href="https://twitter.com/HHamayel2/status/1779606317050589387" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">declining confidence in the army’s ability to protect</a> its citizens following October 7, Israel has made a point of projecting an image of impregnability in the face of regional aggressors.
Several activists and military and political analysts have offered a different interpretation of the results.
Avaaz campaign director Fadi Quran <a href="https://twitter.com/fadiquran/status/1779426300760850642" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">posted on X</a> that “the scale of Iran’s attack, the diversity of locations it targeted, and weapons it used, forced Israel to uncover the majority of anti-missile technologies the US and it have across the region.”
“The Iranians did not use any weapons Israel didn’t know it had, it just used a lot of them,” Quran added. “But the Iranians likely now have almost a full map of what Israel’s missile defence system looks like, as well as where in Jordan and the Gulf the US has installations.”
According to Quran, what this means is that Iran can now “reverse engineer” the intelligence it gathered, while Israel and the U.S. “will have to re-design away from their current model,” making the the cost of the “success” in stopping the attack very high.
“Anyone assuming this is just theatrics is missing the context of how militaries assess strategy versus tactics,” Quran elaborated, emphasizing that gathering intelligence is a key component of long wars of attrition, which is a model that Iran prefers to all-out war.
Beirut-based military analyst and Al-Mayadeen contributor Ali Jezzini offered a similar analysis of the Iranian strikes, arguing that they were “very successful” and that more missiles likely hit their target than Israel has been letting on.
This seems to have been corroborated by video evidence recorded by Palestinians in the case of the Netivim military base, showing several missiles apparently hitting their targets, although there has been no confirmation of the extent of the damage
“The cost of this night’s interceptions certainly exceeds a billion dollars between the Americans and the Israelis,” Jezzini added, a claim that seems to be echoed by <a href="https://www.ynetnews.com/article/h16o8qtea" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Israeli sources</a>.
Jezzini said that in the context of a full-scale war, Israel would not be able to keep up this level of air defense for more than a few days before missiles started to overwhelm Israel’s defense capabilities.
Political analyst Sari Orabi echoed this analysis on his <a href="https://t.me/sari_orabi/2457" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Telegram channel</a>, arguing that the “success” of Israel in intercepting Iranian missiles is “conditional upon the presence of regional layers of protection provided by the United States,” which exposes Israel’s reliance on its network of allies and forces it to give away its various defensive positions.
Orabi added that the Iranian intention behind the strike was “extremely cautious” and “sought to create a new deterrence stance that does not evolve into war,” which creates a new precedent for Iranian action that increases the regional cost of continuing belligerent action toward Iran.
The Biden administration has also made this cost clear to Israel, reportedly <a href="https://www.axios.com/2024/04/14/biden-netanyahu-iran-israel-us-wont-support" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">telling Netanyahu</a> that the U.S. would not back an Israeli counterattack and that Israel should “take the win.”
In this context, Iran has consciously and delicately raised the stakes of a wider confrontation, further straining U.S.-Israeli relations and creating renewed pressure to diffuse regional tensions. Possibly, it might also lead to pressure to end the genocidal war on Gaza.
]]></content:encoded>
<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312018</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>FIFA’s silence on Gaza is unacceptable</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/fifas-silence-on-gaza-is-unacceptable</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Zirin]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:07:07 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Edge of Sports TV]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[edge of sports]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=311996</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="FIFA President Gianni Infantino speaks during the Milken Institute Global Conference in Beverly Hills, California, on May 2, 2022. Photo by PATRICK T. FALLON/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Gianni Infantino once declared, "Today, I feel Arabic," to defend FIFA's selection of Qatar as the host nation of the 2022 World Cup. Does Infantino not also feel Palestinian?]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="FIFA President Gianni Infantino speaks during the Milken Institute Global Conference in Beverly Hills, California, on May 2, 2022. Photo by PATRICK T. FALLON/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1240403715-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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<iframe title="FIFA must speak out on Gaza now | Edge of Sports" width="780" height="439" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yXuoyX6Mjto?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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More than six months into Israel’s genocide in Gaza, FIFA has yet to speak out in defense of Palestinian life. The wild success of the Palestinian team at this year’s Asian Cup did nothing to move FIFA to action. Not even Israel’s killings of Palestinian soccer legends Hani Al-Masdar and Mohammed Barakat, who livestreamed his final moments to the world, have convinced FIFA to break its shameful silence. <a href="https://twitter.com/EdgeofSports" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Dave Zirin</a> takes aim at FIFA and its president, Gianni Infantino, in this edition of ‘Choice Words.’
<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
Studio Production: David Hebden Post-Production: Taylor Hebden Audio Post-Production: David Hebden Opening Sequence: Cameron Granadino Music by: Eze Jackson & Carlos Guillen
</blockquote>
<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity" />
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
Dave Zirin:  Okay, look, before the 2022 World Cup in Qatar, FIFA president, Gianni Infantino, was fed up. Critics were denouncing the choice to host the event in the petro state, given its abysmal human rights record. So Infantino responded defiantly in a bizarre and rambling statement of solidarity with the host country and the billionaire barons behind it, saying, “Today, I feel Qatari. Today, I feel Arabic. Today, I feel African. Today, I feel gay. Today, I feel disabled. Today, I feel like a migrant worker.”
Infantino is trying to say, however painfully awkwardly, that football must be for everyone. Yet when it comes to his laundry list of symbolic identities, he clearly does not feel Palestinian other than a “condolence letter” on Oct. 13, sent only to the head of the Israeli Football Association, calling on football to be a vehicle for peace. Infantino has chosen to say nothing while Israel massacres Palestinian football players, coaches, and sports officials.
Infantino’s refusal to make even a token call for a permanent ceasefire reveals him to be a brazen hypocrite. Remember that FIFA leaped into action against Russia following its invasion of Ukraine, temporarily banning them from all competition. And FIFA, in its statement at the time, said, “Football is fully united here and in full solidarity with all the people affected in Ukraine.”
FIFA’s silence was especially disturbing in January when, amid the horrors of the Israel Defense Force’s attacks, Palestine sent a team to the Asian Cup, where they did surprisingly well by making it to the quarterfinals. The team was a fan favorite, as one might imagine, and the subject of a great deal of media coverage, at least outside the United States.
The irony simply blares. Here is the Palestinian team showing up for FIFA and playing a tournament under extreme duress, and here is FIFA turning its back.
Infantino’s silence and venality is damning. He will stand up to the West for Qatar’s billions, but not for a people in desperate need of courage and a voice. He’s making clear through his actions that FIFA will not cross the United States and Europe when it could affect the bottom line.
The price of FIFA’s self-censorship came into focus after Israel killed Palestinian national team member and football star Mohammed Barakat. In a widely seen video over social media, Barakat filmed his last public words as he could hear Israeli airstrikes getting closer.
Known as the Legend of Khan Younis, the 39-year-old Barakat was the first player in the Gaza Palestinian League to score 100 goals. He also played for the Al-Wehdat Club in Jordan, as well as professionally in Saudi Arabia. None of that mattered as Israel hit Barakat’s family home on the first day of fasting during the Islamic Holy Month of Ramadan.
According to the International Palestinian Football Association, Barakat is just one of hundreds of Palestinian players at all levels who have been killed by Israeli attacks. Israel even killed Hani Al-Masdar, one of Palestine’s greatest players and a manager of the Olympic team, last January.
And yet FIFA still says nothing. Perhaps that shouldn’t be too surprising. No one should ever look to FIFA or Gianni Infantino for moral guidance. Yet we should still demand that FIFA speaks out. FIFA represents the world’s most popular sport, and it has a responsibility to represent everybody.
FIFA has a power that could be a force of unity and justice. Infantino’s global solidarity, however, clearly does not extend to Palestinians. When we speak about the dehumanization of the Palestinian people, FIFA’s silence is part of what makes that a reality. This dehumanization is a prerequisite to the dancing IDF soldiers, the parties with a bounce house blocking food aid, the Israeli rappers recording genocide anthems, and all the other attendant horrors.
We must remember who chose to speak out and who remained silent. But we must also put pressure on the silent to raise their voices. And be assured that in the weeks ahead, Infantino will be remembered for what he does say and for what he doesn’t.
Maximillian Alvarez:  Thank you so much for watching The Real News Network, where we lift up the voices, stories, and struggles that you care about most. And we need your help to keep doing this work. So please tap your screen now, subscribe, and donate to The Real News Network. Solidarity forever.
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<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">311996</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>Occidental College undergrad workers join the campus labor movement</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/occidental-college-undergrad-workers-join-the-campus-labor-movement</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mel Buer]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Fri, 12 Apr 2024 19:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[education]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[labor]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=311937</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="1024" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?fit=1024%2C1024&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Student worker-organizer Noah Weitzner leads a chant with rallying student workers on Occidental College campus, 28 March 2024." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?w=2048&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=300%2C300&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=150%2C150&ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=768%2C768&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=800%2C800&ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=600%2C600&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=400%2C400&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=200%2C200&ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?fit=1024%2C1024&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>In Los Angeles, Rising Occidental Student Employees is fighting for fair wages amidst the city's cost of living crisis.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="1024" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?fit=1024%2C1024&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Student worker-organizer Noah Weitzner leads a chant with rallying student workers on Occidental College campus, 28 March 2024." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?w=2048&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=300%2C300&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=150%2C150&ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=768%2C768&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=800%2C800&ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=600%2C600&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=400%2C400&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=200%2C200&ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/StudentWalkout-12.jpg?fit=1024%2C1024&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
Occidental College, one of the first liberal arts colleges established in California, presents a portrait of the idyllic all-American collegiate experience that many folks dream about. The small, well-planned campus features a distinctive Beaux-Arts design to its buildings and a tree-lined quad that have been featured in dozens of TV shows and movies over the decades, including Beverly Hills 90210, Clueless, and Jurassic Park III. Just under 2,000 full-time students were officially enrolled at the college in Fall 2022, and it remains one of the few colleges nationwide that focus exclusively on undergraduate education. Their recruitment flyers boast of the “distinctive interdisciplinary and multicultural focus of the College’s academic program,” which “seeks to foster both the fulfillment of individual aspirations and a deeply rooted commitment to the public good.”
Within the school’s buildings, where students flit through the halls and pass through the doors on their way to class, an army of student workers is busy keeping the institution running: they lead tours, work as teaching assistants, maintain the IT systems, assist in labs, file paperwork for various departments, and fill many more auxiliary roles in every corner of the campus.
In the last few years, <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/05/multiple-jobs-census-data-inflation-us" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">like so</a> many <a href="https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/25/economy/us-workers-cost-of-living-inflation/index.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">other workers</a> across <a href="https://therealnews.com/american-poverty-is-a-calamity-by-design" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">the country</a>, student workers at Occidental have found it increasingly hard to make ends meet. The price tag for the premier liberal arts degree that Occidental College offers is $60,000 per year—not including the additional $17,000 required to live on campus—a steep hill to climb for working-class students who are eager to set themselves up for success in their careers. The majority of students, <a href="https://www.oxy.edu/sites/default/files/assets/OMC/oxy_fact_sheet_2022_v5.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">nearly 76% in Fall 2022</a>, receive financial aid in order to attend the college. But for most who receive aid, loans and Pell Grants can’t close the gap, forcing them to seek out additional employment on or off campus.
<figure class="wp-block-pullquote alignright"><blockquote>Should undergraduate student workers win their union, there would effectively be wall-to-wall union representation on campus, excluding tenure track faculty.</blockquote></figure>
For student worker-organizers like Noah Weitzner, a junior at the college and media services technician in the IT department, the compensation that he and other student workers receive from Occidental still isn’t enough—and that’s why they made the decision earlier this year to try to form a union of undergraduate workers across campus. “This effort was born out of an acknowledgment that every worker, or many of the workers on this campus, are not treated with dignity and respect, and are not compensated fairly for the work they do that keeps this multi-$100 million institution running,” he told The Real News.
Most student workers at Occidental make the state minimum wage, which is $16.78/hour. “The college, in their first response to our public launch, said that they offer competitive wages, competitive pay, and that is a blatant factual inaccuracy,” Weitzner continued. “We are not paid competitively. There are some students making just over minimum wage [and] no one more than 18 bucks an hour.” In Los Angeles, a city where the <a href="https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/new-study-shows-cost-of-living-in-california-is-too-high-for-many-working-families/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">cost of living</a> is <a href="https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/06/28/california-population-decline-costs-of-living-state/70363036007/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">unaffordable for all</a> but the <a href="https://lamag.com/news/los-angeles-cost-of-living-100k-salary-low-income" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">very top tax bracket</a>, this presents a massive problem—one that worker-organizers like Weitzner believe the union will be able to help fix. “If you look at other schools in the area, you will get UCLA—some of the academic workers were undergraduates who just joined UAW 2865—they’re making over 20 bucks now, right? If you look at Claremont [College],… they’re making more money than we are.”
<div class="wp-block-image">
<figure class="aligncenter size-large"><img decoding="async" width="768" height="1024" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973.jpg?resize=768%2C1024&ssl=1" alt="Students sign a placard with worker demands for voluntary recognition at an information table on Occidental College campus, 23 March 2024." class="wp-image-311938" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C1024&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?resize=225%2C300&ssl=1 225w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?resize=1152%2C1536&ssl=1 1152w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C2048&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?resize=900%2C1200&ssl=1 900w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C800&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?resize=450%2C600&ssl=1 450w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C400&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C200&ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1600&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C2091&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2667&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C533&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-scaled.jpg?w=1920&ssl=1 1920w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/1-IMG_7973-768x1024.jpg?w=370&ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 768px) 100vw, 768px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Students sign a placard with worker demands for voluntary recognition at an information table on Occidental College campus, 23 March 2024. Photo by Mel Buer.</figcaption></figure></div>
On March 23, 30 or so student workers manned tables set up under a tree in the quad of Occidental College’s picturesque campus. “This week is about ‘hearts and minds,’” said Olivia Plumb, teaching assistant in the Biology and Arts departments. After holding intense rallies focused on signing cards the week before, worker-organizers felt the need to set up shop and allow student workers to get to know them and get to know the new union. As students walked past the tables on their way to class, smiling organizers called a few out by name. “Grab a pin!” shouted one sophomore, Chris Cassel, who stood out prominently with his Occidental College sweatshirt and brightly colored hair. The mood was relaxed and joyful as worker-organizers passed out flyers and discussed their demands with curious passersby.
<div class="wp-block-image">
<figure class="aligncenter size-large"><img decoding="async" width="780" height="496" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-IMG_7956.jpg?resize=780%2C496&ssl=1" alt="Student worker-organizer Chris Cassel, second from left, stands with student workers at an information table in the quad of Occidental College, 23 March 2024." class="wp-image-311941" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-IMG_7956-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C651&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-IMG_7956-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C191&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-IMG_7956-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C488&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-IMG_7956-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C977&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-IMG_7956-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1302&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-IMG_7956-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C763&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-IMG_7956-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C997&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-IMG_7956-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1272&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-IMG_7956-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C254&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-IMG_7956-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-IMG_7956-1024x651.jpg?w=370&ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Student worker-organizer Chris Cassel, second from left, stands with student workers at an information table in the quad of Occidental College, 23 March 2024. Photo by Mel Buer.</figcaption></figure></div>
When the new student worker union (called Rising Occidental Student Employees, or ROSE) went public, it only took a matter of days for organizers to secure a supermajority of signed union cards. <a href="https://www.nlrb.gov/case/31-RC-338554" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">They filed for an election with the National Labor Relations Board on March 22</a>—the election date <a href="https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.aspx/09031d4583ce5f19">has been set for April 30</a>, with ballots to be counted on June 12. After years of complaints about the nature of their work, students were ready for a change on campus. In addition to the demand for higher compensation and increased wage caps for work performed at Occidental College, ROSE workers are demanding better work schedules and the flexibility to work more than the 10 hours per week allotted to them by the college.
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-union-organizing-is-part-of-occidental-s-campus-culture">Union organizing is part of Occidental’s campus culture</h2>
ROSE has been particularly welcome at Occidental College, where three other bargaining units already represent non-tenure track faculty and non-student staff (both with SEIU), and dining services workers (with the Teamsters). Should undergraduate student workers win their union, there would effectively be wall-to-wall union representation on campus, excluding tenure track faculty. In other words, virtually every non-supervisor role on campus would be covered by a union.
<figure class="wp-block-embed aligncenter is-type-rich is-provider-twitter wp-block-embed-twitter"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-width="550" data-dnt="true">Here at Occidental College in Los Angeles for <a href="https://twitter.com/TheRealNews?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TheRealNews</a> where student workers have staged a walkout to demand voluntary recognition from the administration after going public with their union drive last week. <a href="https://t.co/EVV9x56Oe0">pic.twitter.com/EVV9x56Oe0</a>— Mel Buer (@mel_buer) <a href="https://twitter.com/mel_buer/status/1773411543239266318?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 28, 2024</a></blockquote><script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
</div></figure>
On Thursday, March 28, student employees engaged in a walkout from class and held a rally outside the college’s administration building to draw attention to ROSE’s efforts to get the administration to voluntarily recognize the union. Attended by nearly 200 student workers and their allies, the rally featured speeches from faculty members expressing solidarity and support for the student union drive. After opening his speech with rounds of “Si Se Puede!” E.P. Clapp Distinguished Professor of Politics Peter Dreier commended student workers for their “impressive” organizing and spoke at length about the support from tenured faculty and California political officials for the new student worker union, including a statement of support from longtime labor activist and California state Senator Maria Elena Durazo.
<div class="wp-block-image">
<figure class="aligncenter size-large"><img decoding="async" width="780" height="520" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-StudentWalkout-19.jpg?resize=780%2C520&ssl=1" alt="Professor Peter Dreier speaks to student workers at a rally outside the administration building of Occidental College, 28 March 2024." class="wp-image-311942" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-StudentWalkout-19.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-StudentWalkout-19.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-StudentWalkout-19.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-StudentWalkout-19.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-StudentWalkout-19.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-StudentWalkout-19.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-StudentWalkout-19.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-StudentWalkout-19.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-StudentWalkout-19.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-StudentWalkout-19.jpg?w=2048&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/3-StudentWalkout-19-1024x683.jpg?w=370&ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Professor Peter Dreier speaks to student workers at a rally outside the administration building of Occidental College, 28 March 2024. Photo by Joey Scott.</figcaption></figure></div>
In her speech, student worker-organizer Jennifer spoke about the broad benefits of a student worker union on Occidental College’s campus, particularly for noncitizen and international student workers. “[The union] offers a collective voice shielding [student workers] from exploitation and discrimination in the workplace, [and] it also provides a sense of belonging and protection, assuring them that they are valued members of our community deserving of [the] same rights and opportunities as their peers,” she said. “As a noncitizen student myself, I recognize that students of irregular statuses, whether undocumented or international, face their own unique vulnerabilities being on this campus, and our work deserves to be acknowledged. We are not invisible and we should not feel invisible.”
<div class="wp-block-image">
<figure class="aligncenter size-large"><img decoding="async" width="780" height="624" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/4-StudentWalkout-22.jpg?resize=780%2C624&ssl=1" alt="Student worker-organizer Jennifer speaks to rallying student workers during a walkout on Occidental College campus, 28 March 2024." class="wp-image-311944" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/4-StudentWalkout-22.jpg?resize=1024%2C819&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/4-StudentWalkout-22.jpg?resize=300%2C240&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/4-StudentWalkout-22.jpg?resize=768%2C614&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/4-StudentWalkout-22.jpg?resize=1536%2C1229&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/4-StudentWalkout-22.jpg?resize=1200%2C960&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/4-StudentWalkout-22.jpg?resize=1568%2C1254&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/4-StudentWalkout-22.jpg?resize=2000%2C1600&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/4-StudentWalkout-22.jpg?resize=400%2C320&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/4-StudentWalkout-22.jpg?w=2048&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/4-StudentWalkout-22-1024x819.jpg?w=370&ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Student worker-organizer Jennifer speaks to rallying student workers during a walkout on Occidental College campus, 28 March 2024. Photo by Joey Scott.</figcaption></figure></div>
After an hour of speeches, rally-goers made their way into the main atrium of the college’s administration building. There, student worker-organizers lead the crowd in a rousing rendition of “Solidarity Forever” and again implored the administration to voluntarily recognize their union. As of publication, the college administration remains unwilling to recognize ROSE and is letting the election process play out.
<figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-twitter wp-block-embed-twitter"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-width="550" data-dnt="true">Occidental College student workers marched on the administration today and sang Solidarity Forever in the main lobby of the admin building in Los Angeles. (THIS IS THE VIBE, MAN🔥✊✊) <a href="https://t.co/RqWymuxdNh">pic.twitter.com/RqWymuxdNh</a>— Mel Buer (@mel_buer) <a href="https://twitter.com/mel_buer/status/1773432135048990944?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 28, 2024</a></blockquote><script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
</div></figure>
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-students-can-be-employees-too-says-nlrb">Students can be employees too, says NLRB</h2>
The uptick in undergraduate student worker organizing at Occidental has been a welcome addition to the robust student <a href="https://poweratwork.us/howl-blogcast" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">worker organizing campaigns already underway</a> at many of the nation’s colleges and universities.  Since 2016, <a href="https://thebaffler.com/latest/laboring-academia" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">the NLRB has held that student workers are statutory employees</a> when they provide services or work under the university’s direction in exchange for compensation. Since that landmark ruling, <a href="https://www.employmentlawinsights.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/36/2023/07/Sup.-Materials.-NLRB-Decision.-v.1.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Columbia University,</a> the vast majority of student worker union campaigns at private universities have focused on organizing graduate students and PhD candidates, to great success: in the last two years, <a href="https://slu.cuny.edu/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Union-Density-2023.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">dozens of new bargaining units have cropped up</a> at universities and colleges across the country. Now, as grad unions continue to expand their reach on campuses, the focus has increasingly shifted toward organizing undergraduate student workers.
<figure class="wp-block-pullquote alignright"><blockquote>Since 2016, <a href="https://thebaffler.com/latest/laboring-academia" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">the NLRB has held that student workers are statutory employees</a> when they provide services or work under the university’s direction in exchange for compensation.</blockquote></figure>
<a href="https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/csu-undergraduate-student-workers-vote-to-form-largest-union-of-its-kind-in-nation/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Previous reporting</a> credits positive attention on the US labor movement, as well as the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic on student workers, as the main reasons for increased undergraduate student worker organizing. According to <a href="https://www.insidehighered.com/news/faculty-issues/labor-unionization/2023/04/26/were-not-slowing-down-student-workers-say" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">reporting from last year</a> at Inside Higher Ed,
<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
William Herbert, executive director of the National Center for the Study of Collective Bargaining in Higher Education and Professions at Hunter College, said the rise of undergraduate unions is tied to the resurgence of a larger nationwide interest in organized labor among young workers.
“This is all stemming from an explosion of post-pandemic labor activism, particularly by a new generation who understands that representation has strong advantages,” he said. “There’s a relationship between these filings on campuses and what’s transpiring off campus at places like Starbucks and REI, in which a new generation of employees is leading the charge.”
</blockquote>
Undergraduate student workers have won unions at just over a dozen colleges and universities in the last year, illustrating the breadth of new worker organizing in sectors that were previously under-represented. 
Since ROSE’s NLRB filing on March 22, <a href="https://www.oxy.edu/offices-services/human-resources/union-updates/information-student-workers" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">the college has responded by setting up an “Information for Student Workers” webpage</a>, in which they make clear their unwillingness to voluntarily recognize the union ahead of an NLRB election. Their statement reads, in part,
<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
The College is pro-student, and not opposed to the formation of unions generally. There are aspects of the typical employee-union format that we see as potentially incompatible with the student work experience. Student jobs at Oxy often have an educational or training component, or exist to strengthen connections between students and faculty, or help students fulfill work-study requirements. These goals and connections may be strained by the presence of third-party representatives. We see the value in direct and interactive dialogue with our student workers and hope that there will be opportunities for such dialogue in the future.
</blockquote>
Reading between the lines here, Occidental College’s administration has employed the usual playbook that other private institutions have used to discourage the formation of undergraduate student unions: namely, that student workers are students, first, and collective bargaining agreements would somehow be incompatible with their “unique” relationship with the university, and the negotiation of wages and other compensation would affect federal work study allocations and requirements.
There is precedent, however, in addressing these concerns. In <a href="https://www.nlrb.gov/case/04-rc-313979" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">The Trustees of  the University of Pennsylvania, Case No. 04-RC-313979 (Aug. 21, 2023),</a> Region 4 Acting Regional Director Emily DeSa rejected both of the university’s arguments, stating that the employer offered no legal basis for either of them, and upheld the Columbia ruling. As DeSa notes,
<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
However, as the Columbia Board held, “[s]tatutory coverage is permitted by virtue of an employment relationship; it is not foreclosed by the existence of some other, additional relationship that the Act does not reach.” 364 NLRB at 1080. That logic applies equally here: while the RAs unquestionably have a student relationship with the Employer, they also have a coextensive employee relationship with the Employer for the reasons set forth above. Therefore, the Employer’s argument that the RA’s are merely students and not employees lacks merit.
</blockquote>
What’s clear in this ruling is that, despite the student relationship between student workers and the college, there is also an employee relationship that can and should be addressed via a collective bargaining agreement—and the former relationship, per the Columbia ruling, does not negate the latter. For graduates and undergraduates alike, one can be a student and an employee. As Weitzner asserted, “The college needs to acknowledge that the institution wouldn’t run without us.”
In response to the argument that acknowledging this employee relationship opens potential conflicts with federal work study allocations and that “the University cannot collectively bargain over financial aid issues and is bound by the Federal regulations governing Title IV programs,” DeSa noted in her ruling against the University of Pennsylvania that “The Employer provides no legal support for this assertion. Nor does the Employer adequately explain how its potential negotiations with the Union could somehow conflict with the Federal government’s aid determinations.”
<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-a-union-election-on-the-horizon">A union election on the horizon</h2>
What does this mean for the student workers organizing at Occidental College? The precedent established in these rulings gives student workers the space they need to push back against these assertions once negotiations commence. 
The administration’s decision not to voluntarily recognize the union is a disappointing one, but not a surprise to many Occidental student worker-organizers. “We’re telling them that they have a choice here,” Weitzner said. “They can respect their students and their staff’s decision to form a union. They can live up to their commitments within their mission statement to develop leadership and to foster community engagement and ‘cultivate a community of care.’ They can meet those ends by recognizing this union, or they can remain hostile…[to] put up this wall, within their community… To me, that doesn’t feel like the path of least resistance for any of us.” While they hoped for more willingness from the administration, worker-organizers like Weitzner are confident that the NLRB election will go in their favor. “Either way, we have a union, and it will be recognized by the NLRB and by the college,” Weitzner said. In recent days, <a href="https://theoccidentalnews.com/news/2024/04/10/rose-college-responds-to-faq-on-student-union-drive/2912305" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">members of ROSE have responded to the Student Worker FAQ put up by the College in their campus newspaper</a>.
In response to the organizing effort, SEIU Local 721 President and Executive Director David Green released a statement lauding the student workers for their efforts and welcoming more organizing in the future. “Over the past decade, we’ve seen many employees on college campuses join SEIU Local 721 to demand better working conditions—including at USC, Otis, Laguna College of Art and Design, and more. As a unionized adjunct instructor in the CSU system for more than 10 years, I know that the wave of unionization hitting college campuses will only continue to swell as instructors, staff, and students recognize the benefits of unionizing,” he said. “We will continue to support their ongoing organizing efforts.”
]]></content:encoded>
<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">311937</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>The Gringo who tried to rule Central America</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/nicaragua-william-walker-under-the-shadow-episode-8</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Fox]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Fri, 12 Apr 2024 18:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Under the Shadow]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Nicaragua]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[under the shadow]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=311893</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="537" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?fit=1024%2C537&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?w=1048&ssl=1 1048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?resize=300%2C157&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?resize=1024%2C537&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?resize=768%2C403&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?resize=400%2C210&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?fit=1024%2C537&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>This episode looks back at the 19th century roots of US imperialism in Central America, when solo 'filibuster' adventurers tried to conquer whole nations singlehandedly.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="537" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?fit=1024%2C537&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?w=1048&ssl=1 1048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?resize=300%2C157&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?resize=1024%2C537&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?resize=768%2C403&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?resize=400%2C210&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-12-at-12.32.32-PM.jpeg?fit=1024%2C537&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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William Walker was a journalist, lawyer and physician from Nashville, Tennessee, who in 1855 invaded Nicaragua with a few dozen troops and conquered the country.
At the time, he was one of thousands of private US citizens who had their sights set on taking over foreign nations, all in the name of Manifest Destiny.
In this episode, host Michael Fox follows in the footsteps of William Walker as he recounts one of the most twisted stories of US imperialism in Central America—a story that still has lasting repercussions for Latin America, the United States and across the world.
<a href="https://therealnews.com/under-the-shadow" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Under the Shadow</a> is an investigative narrative podcast series that walks back in time, telling the story of the past by visiting momentous places in the present.
In each episode, host Michael Fox takes us to a location where something historic happened—a landmark of revolutionary struggle or foreign intervention. Today, it might look like a random street corner, a church, a mall, a monument, or a museum. But every place he takes us was once the site of history-making events that shook countries, impacted lives, and left deep marks on the world.
Hosted by Latin America-based journalist Michael Fox.
This podcast is produced in partnership between <a href="https://therealnews.com/under-the-shadow" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">The Real News Network</a> and <a href="https://nacla.org/under-shadow" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">NACLA</a>.
Guests: <a href="https://www.history.pitt.edu/people/michel-gobat" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Michel Gobat</a> <a href="https://cihac.fcs.ucr.ac.cr/investigadores/david-diaz/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">David Díaz</a> Many thanks to <a href="https://vinv.ucr.ac.cr/sigpro/web/researchers/103730844" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Victor Acuña</a>
<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
Edited by Heather Gies. Sound design by <a href="https://twitter.com/coletivocatarse" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Gustavo Türck</a>. Theme music by <a href="https://open.spotify.com/artist/0nexDyQCZI89JH8zsYu5wa" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Monte Perdido</a> and Michael Fox. Other music from Blue Dot Sessions.
</blockquote>
Follow and support journalist Michael Fox or Under the Shadow at <a href="https://www.patreon.com/mfox" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://www.patreon.com/mfox</a>
You can also see pictures and listen to full clips of Michael Fox’s music for this episode.
For background, see Michel Gobat’s book <a href="https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674737495" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Empire by Invitation:William Walker and Manifest Destiny in Central America</a> (2018, Harvard University Press)
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
Michael Fox:  [Symphony tuning instruments] This episode is going to start a little bit different than what I had imagined because I just arrived to this farmhouse on the west end of Rivas, which is one of the main cities here in Southern Nicaragua. Huge volcano overlooking… It’s on the edge of Lake Nicaragua, the southern side. The farmhouse itself, there’s this big, grassy knoll all around it, some old cannons sitting outside.
And this is one of the most historic places here. The farmhouse itself is made of adobe, wooden roofs with clay tiles that’s so traditional of this era.
What’s fascinating here is you have… I just arrived, and there’s the National Youth Symphony from Rivas is just setting up to practice this afternoon. They practice here on every Tuesday and Thursday afternoon. We’re all sitting, and they’re just about to start playing.
There’s all these old wagon wheels, metal wagon wheels sitting on the side, and the grass stretches around, but the city of Rivas has really engulfed the farmhouse. This is the only thing left on this hill.
The reason why this is so important, this farmhouse itself, is because it was here that William Walker, the US filibuster, came in, invaded Nicaragua with a few dozen men, and this is one of the first places he came to when he first invaded Nicaragua on his plan to take over and control the country. There’s a whole library in the back here, which I didn’t even see before.
The year was 1855. William Walker, a physician and lawyer from Nashville, Tennessee, would not only invade Nicaragua with a small army of mercenaries, but he would take over and rule the country, not on behalf of the US military or even in the name of the United States, but in the spirit of Manifest Destiny.
It was only the first part in his plan to conquer all of Central America, and Walker was not the only random guy from the United States bent on invading and conquering other countries. There was a whole movement of them. But also a movement against them that would lead to the very concept of Latin America.
The Nicaraguan town of Rivas and this farmhouse on the Santa Ursula Plantation would be at the center of not one, but numerous battles over two years that would be remembered as the struggles for the true liberation of Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and elsewhere. William Walker and his invasion of Nicaragua are virtually unknown in the United States today. His actions shaped history, but as we will see in this episode, not in the way that he hoped to. All of that in a minute.
[Under the Shadow theme music]
This is Under the Shadow, a new investigative, narrative podcast series that walks back in time to tell the story of the past by visiting momentous places in the present.
This podcast is a co-production in partnership with The Real News and NACLA. I’m your host, Michael Fox — Longtime radio reporter, editor, journalist, the producer and host of the podcast Brazil on Fire. I’ve spent the better part of the last 20 years in Latin America.
I’ve seen firsthand the role of the US government abroad and most often sadly, it is not for the better. Invasions, coups, sanctions, support for authoritarian regimes. Politically and economically, the United States has cast a long shadow over Latin America for the past 200 years.
In each episode in this series, I will take you to a location where something historic happened, a landmark of revolutionary struggle or foreign intervention. Today, it might look like a random street corner, a church, a mall, a monument, or a museum, but every place I’m going to bring you was once the site of history-making events that shook countries, impacted lives, and left deep marks on the world. I’ll try to discover what lingers of that history today.
As you have probably noticed throughout the series, I have been traveling southward from Guatemala into El Salvador, Honduras, and now, today, into Nicaragua. Many of the episodes have focused on the 1980s, the role of the Reagan Government in backing atrocious regimes.
President Ronald Reagan [recording]:  If we provide too little help, our choice will be a communist Central America.
Michael Fox:  But I’ve also gone further into the past to understand the Monroe Doctrine, United Fruit, and, for instance, the 1954 coup in Guatemala that would lead to the country’s genocide against Indigenous peoples.
Today, however, I’m walking even further back in time to understand a figure and an invasion that are nearly incomprehensible today but that left lasting repercussions, even though almost no one remembers or realizes it.
One thing I do want to point out before we continue, however, is that unlike most of this podcast series, which focuses on intervention by the United States’s government or military abroad, this episode looks at intervention by private US citizens acting on their own accord. Although the US government was not directly involved, as we will see, the United States was more than happy to recognize the actions of people like Walker abroad once they took power.
This is Under the Shadow season one: Central America. Episode 8: “Nicaragua, William Walker”. To start this episode, we’re going to step back to a moment some of you have probably heard of. The year is 1848. Gold is discovered in the hills of California. It’s the start of the Gold Rush. By the next year, tens of thousands converge on the territory. It’s not a state yet, not until 1850, and that’s where the name the Forty-Niners comes from — You know, the football team. The Forty-Niners were the prospectors who flooded California. San Francisco becomes a booming port town overnight. 300,000 people would move to California in the coming years with the dream of making it rich.
Now, the image you probably have is of people making the trip west in covered wagons, but actually, half of those that arrived to California during those years did so over water. Steamships would transport gold seekers from New York or New Orleans to San Francisco via Panama or Nicaragua, the shortest land masses between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. Remember, the Panama Canal wouldn’t be built for another 60 years, but overland transit routes in both countries would shuttle people from one coast to the other.
Nicaragua actually had the easiest go of it because of the huge Lake Nicaragua, the largest lake in Central America, second largest in all of Latin America. Just for comparison, Lake Nicaragua is almost 17 times the size of Lake Tahoe.
Business mogul Cornelius Vanderbilt set up the Accessory Transit Company in Nicaragua to do the job. Steamers would sail to San Juan del Norte on Nicaragua’s Caribbean coast. Passengers would then sail up the San Juan River into the lake, cross to the town of Rivas on the other side, where a stagecoach would be waiting to take them down to the Pacific Coast port town of San Juan Del Sur.
Costa Rican historian David Diaz says the world of the 19th Century was way more globalized than we realize.
David Diaz:  Sometimes we think that globalization started at the end of the 20th century with television and internet. But this world of the 19th century, it was globalized, largely with boats over the ocean. People came and went. There was the possibility of more transit because you didn’t have these harsh laws restricting the transit of people between countries. Travelers from that period spoke of a huge diversity of people making the journey west.
There was a huge number of different cultures and languages that they heard in the boats. It was a very rich world there because of this type of daily contact between cultures.
Michael Fox:  Vanderbilt’s transit company was very soon shuttling roughly 2,000 people a day over the route, and it was not cheap. Among those who ventured west was a man named William Walker, a native of Nashville, Tennessee. He was a bit of a prodigy: a physician, a lawyer, journalist. He studied at several universities, not just in the United States, but also in Edinburgh and Heidelberg in Europe.
When the Gold Rush kicked off, he was co-owner and editor of the New Orleans Crescent newspaper. The next year, 1849, he caught a steamer from New Orleans and shipped off to San Francisco at the age of 25.
In probably the most infamous black and white picture of him from the 1850s, he stands in a tuxedo, his left arm resting on a pedestal, his short hair parted to one side, his eyes staring off into the distance. After reaching the West, he worked for a few years as an editor of the San Francisco Herald newspaper and unceremoniously fought three duels. But he had his sights set higher. William Walker would not only be caught up in the fever of the Gold Rush but of what would become known as filibustering.
Okay, so today, a filibuster is when a legislative representative talks for a long time in order to block progress in Congress.
Sen. Ted Cruz [recording]:  I intend to speak in support of defunding Obamacare until I’m no longer able to stand.
Michael Fox:  That was Republican Senator Ted Cruz back in 2013. He made it to 21 hours during which time he, among other things, read the Dr. Seuss classic Green Eggs and Ham.
Sen. Ted Cruz [recording]:  That Sam I am. That Sam I am. I do not like that, Sam I am.
Michael Fox:  Well, that is not the filibustering of old. Back in the mid-1800s, according to the Oxford Dictionary, a filibuster was “a person engaging in unauthorized warfare against a foreign country.”
And this was the thing. I want to bring in someone here who’s going to be with us for the rest of this episode and the next: Michel Gobat.
Michel Gobat:  I’m a professor of history at the University of Pittsburgh, and my research has focused on US relations with Central America, mainly US intervention.
Michael Fox:  Michel’s book, Empire by Invitation: William Walker and Manifest Destiny in Central America, was published in 2018. It’s an incredible resource for everything we’re discussing today.
Michel Gobat:  Filibusters were… It’s an old term, but they became very prominent in the US after US defeat of Mexico in the war of 1846 to 1848. This is the era of Manifest Destiny, so the US feels destined to expand its borders. Nowadays, Manifest Destiny is associated, I would say, in the US, nearly exclusively with expansion by land.
Few people remember that once the US actually hit the Pacific Coast, that is with the seizure of California, what you then have is efforts to expand by sea. Some of them went pretty far west, Hawaii and then eventually Japan with the Perry Expedition, but most of these expeditions went south to Latin America.
Michael Fox:  And here’s the thing, most of the expansion at that time was not from the US government or even military, but from private citizens.
Michel Gobat:  In doing so, they violated US law, particularly US neutrality law, and that’s why they were called filibusters. That is the term. It’s from the Dutch and Spanish term for freebooters or pirates. Because they were violating US law, they were seen as pirates.
It also has a lot to do with the fact that many of these filibusters were young men who were living in port cities like New York, New Orleans, San Francisco. Those are the main hot spots for filibusters in this period, and the traditional view is that these were young men interested in violence, sex, and alcohol, and that’s what they did. They went and thought they would have a good time invading other countries.
So, thousands of filibusters invaded Latin American countries between 1848 and the outbreak of the US Civil War. Some went as far south as Peru, but most of these invasions targeted either Mexico or the Caribbean Basin, so we’re talking about countries like Cuba. I would say the three main targets are Nicaragua, Cuba, and Mexico, and they all failed except for the one by Walker.
Michael Fox:  Two things that are really important to point out here. First, remember, this is just a decade before the start of the Civil War, and there is this longstanding internal conflict in the United States broiling over the practice of slavery. Many of the filibusters invading countries at the time are doing so with the hopes of bringing new slave states into the union. That was at least in part the situation in Texas.
Second, at this time, the mid-1800s, borders and territories are in flux as settler colonialism violently expands the United States.
Speaker:  This is for Texas, Boys! This is for Texas and freedom!
Michael Fox:  In his 2003 book, Manifest Destiny’s Underworld, historian Robert E. May writes that “The Texas Revolution of 1835 began as an uprising against Mexican rule by Anglos. However, so many private American military companies hastened to Texas once word of the uprising arrived in the United States that the Texas Revolution became transformed into the most successful filibuster in American history.”
He writes that more than three-quarters of all the soldiers in the Texan rebel armies at the time of the battle of the Alamo in early 1836 crossed the border into Texas less than six months before. In other words, they were the invading army, not the Mexicans.
Texas would become a state in 1845, California 1850, only after Mexico handed it over to the United States along with most of the Southwest following the Mexican-American War, or what Mexicans call the War of Northern Aggression. But Utah, it’s not a state until 1896. Arizona and New Mexico, they don’t become states until 1912, another 60 years. In other words, the sky was the limit.
Walker first pointed his sights toward Mexico’s new northern border. The idea was like Texas 2.0. October 1853, Walker sets out with 45 men to conquer the Mexican territories of Baja California and the state of Sonora. It’s a sparsely populated region.
He captures the Baja capital, La Paz, and declares himself the president of the New Republic of Lower California. He puts the region under the laws of Louisiana, his home state, legalizing slavery.
He’s forced out within a few months by the Mexican government and a lack of supplies, and in California, he’s indicted by a grand jury for waging an illegal war in violation of the Neutrality Act, though a jury acquits him in only eight minutes.
It’s shortly thereafter that Walker gets an enticing proposition. A civil war is raging in Nicaragua. It’s the Liberals versus the Conservatives, and Walker gets an invitation from the Liberal Democratic Party. They’ve heard of Walker’s escapades in Mexico, and they’d like him to help them defeat their adversaries. For Walker, Nicaragua is particularly interesting. Remember, it’s a major transit hub for east-west travel. It’s also the top competing location alongside Panama for the construction of a canal that could unite the Pacific and Atlantic oceans, so Nicaragua…
Michel Gobat:  …Was strategically and economically important at that moment because of its geographic position. So Walker, like other US expansionists, thought that whoever controls Nicaragua would control a very important piece of land.
Michael Fox:  Walker set sail from San Francisco May 3, 1855.
Michel Gobat:  He first lands in northwestern Nicaragua, close to basically the bastion of the Liberal Party that invited him. And so he gets there with 59 men. He’s there to help the liberals win the civil war against the ruling conservatives. Their headquarters are in the second largest city of Nicaragua called Granada, which is further south.
What he does is he thinks he can do it all on his own. He sails from this northwestern corner of Nicaragua to the southwestern corner, basically where Vanderbilt has his Pacific port, and from there he wants to then just march from there northwards to Granada. That’s a miserable failure in large part because he doesn’t trust the Nicaraguan troops that join him.
Michael Fox:  This is the First Battle of Rivas, when they occupy the farmhouse where I started this episode. They’re able to escape, and Walker sails back to León, but he realizes he needs help. So, this time, he gets reinforcements from one of his top liberal supporters, José María Valle. Valle was a leader of a powerful peasant movement years before. Some conservatives in the country even call him a communist. He hopes Walker will bring radical transformations to Nicaragua.
Michel Gobat:  Valle provides him with most of his troops. So, Walker does the same thing again. He sails south to the port called San Juan del Sur and replicates the whole thing, with the difference that he then commandeers some lake steamers that Vanderbilt uses to transport the gold rushes across the lake and uses that to attack Granada, and seizes Granada, and basically becomes the strongman of Nicaragua. But the only reason he’s able to do that is because he relies heavily on the troops provided by Valle.
Michael Fox:  I am riding in the back of a carriage. It’s white, bows tied to the sides, horse-drawn, two horses leading the way. Their names are Mercedes and Benz, and it feels like something out of Cinderella. You’ve got these big long metal wheels, and we’re riding through Old Town Granada. The houses are all painted these pastel colors. It’s really, really quaint, the old tiled roofs and cobblestone streets. It feels like you’re stepping out of time in a lot of ways. But this was the town where William Walker ran the country. This was his capital.
Michel Gobat:  What’s interesting is that Walker, initially, he’s offered the presidency by both the liberal leaders and the conservative leaders who are defeated. What is now largely forgotten, especially in Latin America, is that at that time, a lot of Latin Americans admired the US as their political and economic model, and so there was strong support for US annexation in places like Nicaragua at that time, particularly among the elite sectors.
So, both liberal leaders and conservative leaders offer Walker the presidency, but he refuses. Instead, he installs a puppet president, a conservative. And initially, his rule is pretty moderate.
Michael Fox:  Walker’s main goal at this point: consolidate power, win diplomatic recognition from the US government, recruit followers from the United States — Not just for his army, but whole families to come settle in Nicaragua.
Roughly 12,000 families arrive over the next two years. Walker launches a bilingual weekly newspaper, El Nicaragüense, which makes the rounds in Nicaragua but is really for distribution on the East Coast of the United States. He makes English an official language, and he legalizes slavery, a practice abolished across Central America in the 1820s.
Remember, Walker is from Tennessee, a state in the South where slavery is legal at the time, and that is how Walker is often portrayed today, in the rare cases that he is portrayed in the United States: as a Southerner who wanted to create a slave-holding society in Nicaragua. But Michel Gobat says, according to his research, that’s not really accurate, and mostly based on a book Walker would later write in order to drum up support in the South for future expeditions in the region.
Michel Gobat:  It’s true that a number of pro-slavery Southerners hooked up with Walker in Nicaragua, but the majority of the supporters came from the North, and they included families who just deemed Nicaragua the new California. They were essentially what we would now call settler-colonists. They thought that they would have a better life by settling in Nicaragua.
It was easy to get to Nicaragua because of the Gold Rush, and Walker, once he comes to power, makes a deal with these shipping companies that allows him to transport all his would-be followers from the US to Nicaragua for free.
Michael Fox:  In his research, Michel found that others who arrived were actually political radicals from both the United States and Europe who believed Walker would push to transform the state for the better.
Michel Gobat:  This is a moment in US history where you have a lot of moral reform movements, often associated with abolitionism, temperance activities, suffrage movements, and members of these movements all hook up with Walker.
Michael Fox:  At this moment, Walker actually has a good deal of support from Nicaraguans on the ground as well. Liberals from the popular sectors, campesinos, artisans, people who hoped US democratic traditions and culture would rub off.
Meanwhile, for US government officials, they didn’t like Walker breaking neutrality laws as a filibuster, but they are more than happy to embrace him once he has taken power. The United States recognizes his government, allowing Walker to receive weapons and recruits legally from the United States.
Michel Gobat:  Once he feels secure in power, that’s when Walker decides, it’s my time. I’m going to now seize the complete power, and that’s when he promotes all these political reforms that, on the one hand, open up the political system to the poor — So just like what people like Valle wanted. Makes it easier for them to vote, people are now elected directly. But he then abuses these democratic reforms to stage a rigged presidential election that he wins.
He still maintains the support of radicals like Valle because, at the same time, he’s carrying out what his regime calls a revolution. So, this revolution has a political component, as I just mentioned, is opening up the political system to the poor, but it also goes after the economic power of local elite.
Ed Harris:  It is I who shall save the life of this country!
Michael Fox:  That’s the voice of Ed Harris playing Walker in the 1987 acid trip of a movie by the same name about the filibuster’s escapades in Nicaragua. In the movie, Walker is always clean-shaven and immaculately dressed in a slick black suit and Western hat. He’s portrayed somewhere between a mystic who strides into battle without fear of being shot or wounded, a political strongman, and a megalomaniac who believes he is bringing liberty and redemption to Nicaragua.
That’s probably not far off, but William Walker is complicated. It seems he really is trying to do good. He’s rebuilding cities — Remember, the country is coming out of years of civil war.
Michel Gobat:  He also promotes public education. He promotes women’s suffrage, which is, back in the 1850s, a pretty radical thing. I have this playbill of a musical that was very popular in the US. I think the playbill is from when it was on Broadway, and there you can see Walker is seen as the hope of freedom. You can see the strong, liberal bent.
Michael Fox:  Walker also goes after the economic power of local elites. His regime starts confiscating landed estates, the basis of elite power, plantations of sugar, cacao, indigo, key sources of revenue. The problem is, he alienates his Nicaraguan supporters by giving this land over to US settlers.
Michel Gobat:  That starts creating tensions between Walker’s US followers and his Nicaraguan followers, and that’s the beginning of the end of Walker.
Michael Fox:  But for Walker, Nicaragua is only just the beginning. That in a minute.
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Michel Gobat:  He’s trying to create an empire that would be independent of the US, so an empire that would consist of all the five Central American states of that era. So Nicaragua, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala, and that empire would be allied with the US, but independent of the US.
People don’t remember this anymore, but this is the Thomas Jefferson path of US expansion. Jefferson was an expansionist, but he did not primarily believe that it was the role of the US state to expand at borders. Rather, he thought it was the role of US farmers, the Yeoman Farmers, these US settlers, that they would go out and conquer new territory, establish their own independent policy that would be allied with the US.
So, this is the path, for example, that you see happening in Texas with the rise of the Republic of Texas. Another key example is the efforts of Mormons in present-day Utah to create their own state called Deseret, and one could even argue that the Bear Republic of California also follows this path. So, Walker’s not an outlier. He’s trying to create this empire.
Once he’s in power, early on in 1856, he decides to invade Costa Rica as the first way to expand his power beyond Nicaragua.
That fails miserably. It triggers a counter-invasion of Costa Rica that nearly succeeds in kicking out Walker. It fails because, contrary to Costa Rican’s hope, Nicaraguans didn’t rally to the Costa Rican cause. Instead, Walker survives because radical Liberals led by Valle helped him withstand the Costa Rican offensive. But that’s the last time Walker actually tries to invade another Central American nation. From then on, he’s always on the defensive.
Michael Fox:  Walker’s army faces the invading Costa Rican forces in southern Nicaragua, where they fight the second battle of Rivas, but the Costa Ricans retreat due to a nasty bout of cholera.
Michel Gobat:  The summer of 1856 is the high point of Walker’s rule, and that’s when he launches this revolution. That revolution, I would argue, that’s the beginning of the unraveling of Walker because it creates all these tensions in the Nicaraguan countryside, a lot of violence, and, like many revolutionary regimes, Walker responds to this violence with more violence. That’s also the beginning of the Central American offensive.
Michael Fox:  Remember, the Costa Ricans had retreated, but now they regroup and rally troops from the other Central American countries, who all provide battalions to fight Walker and his threat to the region.
Michel Gobat:  Still, the rainy season, the rainy season in Central America, as you know, can make travel very difficult, particularly when there are no roads, when these dirt roads turn into mud banks. But then September-October, the rainy season starts to end, and then they start advancing into Nicaragua. And because of all the violence associated with Walker’s revolution, Nicaraguans are now less supportive of Walker. Some of them joined the Central American offensive.
Walker makes a lot of military blunders. By November, his control is basically reduced to the city of Granada. And then he decides that he should abandon Granada and moves further south to Rivas, which is on the Transit Road. The Transit Road is essentially the road that Cornelius Vanderbilt constructed to transport the gold rushes across the isthmus.
Michael Fox:  The Transit Road is essentially Walker’s lifeline to the United States. He’s still getting weapons and recruits, which is why he thinks it’s a good idea to relocate his capital there. On his way out of Granada, he orders a battalion to torch the city. They leave a sign at the dock. It reads, “Here was Granada.”
Michel Gobat:  His torching of his former capital is so horrific, and also had a lot to do with the violence that accompanied the torching of his capital. It was supposed to just be carried out in a day or two, but because of heavy rains, it was delayed, and so most Walker and most of his men had already left Granada for Rivas. There were just a couple hundred left behind.
They got drunk, and they committed a lot of violence. They did a lot of rapes, and it’s that horror that accompanied the burning of Granada that turned a lot of liberals and that ensured that liberals who had formerly supported Walker would not go back to him.
Michael Fox:  Back in Rivas, Walker thinks he can still survive because he controls the transit route, but not for long. See, while he was in power, Walker had seized Vanderbilt’s transit company and handed it over to a pair of his US subordinates in exchange for financial and logistical support. Now, however, Vanderbilt responds by backing the Costa Ricans with the hopes of regaining control of his ships.
It pays off. The Central American Allied Army gets control of the transit route and essentially lays siege to Walker. The year is 1857. Less than two years have passed since the filibuster arrived.
Michel Gobat:  On May 1, he’s forced to surrender, and the only reason he’s not lynched by the Central American Army — Because they really want to execute him — Is because there’s a US Navy ship anchored just very close to Rivas in San Juan del Sur, which is the Pacific Terminal that I mentioned before, constructed by Vanderbilt.
That warship had been there for various months, and the commander goes to Rivas to Walker’s headquarters in Rivas and arranges the terms of surrender. And Walker’s then able to leave, with the help of this US Navy captain, unscathed. He survives, and he goes back to the US.
Michael Fox:  When he was received after leaving Nicaragua, he was received back to the United States, and they received them with a hero’s welcome. Of course, the US recognized his regime or his government, and people were really excited about the idea that gringos could go to other countries, invade them, take them over, and proclaim themselves president. They saw it as a way of expanding Manifest Destiny.
And it did not end well. Walker would try to return to Central America three times. He’s delusional. I see him as a cross between Don Quixote and Lawrence of Arabia, but with a Southern accent. He believed he still had widespread popular support. But then Trujillo, Honduras.
There’s a tombstone in the old cemetery in Trujillo on the Caribbean coast. The tombstone is a big, rectangular, concrete slab that’s risen off the ground on one end. There’s a little, waist-high, rusted, white, metal fence surrounding it. Flowering plants grow just inside. On the tombstone read the words, “William Walker Fusilado, shot by firing squad. Sept. 12, 1860.”
Today, Concepcion Alvarenga cares for the cemetery. He’s up in age with a thin, gray mustache and a plaid shirt. He’s been at it for more than a decade.
“William Walker’s tomb is visited by a lot of people,” he says. “They take a lot of pictures, some even lie down on the ground to take pictures with him.”
Back in 1860, Walker was on his third attempt to regain control of part of the region. He landed on the Caribbean coast of Honduras. There he was captured by a British warship, which handed him over to Honduran authorities, and so went the life of America’s most illustrious filibuster. Though he is all but forgotten in the United States, he’s more than remembered in Nicaragua and throughout the region, but not for his accomplishments.
Riding around Granada, Walker’s name comes up constantly. It’s funny. Granada is really funny. It’s like William Walker has this subtle, oversized presence throughout the cities in plaques all over the place. William Walker, this person opposed William Walker. William Walker was here. William Walker stayed here. This was William Walker’s house, and it’s really interesting because he was only present for two years, but it overshadows and has overshadowed everything. But he was such an unbelievable moment in Nicaraguan history that this guy from the U.S. with 50 soldiers would try to invade another country and proclaim himself president. It’s just mind-boggling. It’s mind-boggling.
“They teach the kids,” says Alfredo César Dávila, who’s been giving horse tours in Granada for nearly a half-century. “They tell them he came here, and I have grandchildren who ask me about William Walker, and I have to explain things to my grandkids because there is a lot of history,” he says. And not just in Granada.
Nicaragua’s most important Independence Day celebrations aren’t held on Sept. 15, the day of the country’s independence from Spain. They happen on the day before, to commemorate the 1856 Battle of San Jacinto, when Nicaraguan troops defeated a group of 300 filibusters under the command of the former newspaper owner and Boston native Byron Cole.
Among Nicaragua’s most beloved heroes is Emmanuel Mongalo y Rubio. That’s the marching band from a high school named after him. He was a teacher who fought against Walker and the filibusters in the First Battle of Rivas, setting fire to the farmhouse they were in and forcing them to flee. The date was June 29, 1856. Today, June 29 is the Day of the Nicaraguan Teacher in honor of Mongalo y Rubio.
And not just in Nicaragua, in downtown San Jose, Costa Rica, about a block from the Supreme Court and the Legislative Assembly, is a huge statue in the middle of a park. It’s called the National Monument, and it honors the United Central American Army’s fight against Walker and the filibusters. The statue depicts five women fighting a man, William Walker. Each of the women represent a different Central American country that fought in the war against the filibusters. Costa Rican historian, David Diaz.
David Diaz:  A woman is trying to hit him with a sword, that’s Costa Rica. There’s another woman lying on the ground humiliated by the filibuster, that’s Nicaragua. And then there are three other women representing Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala that are supporting Costa Rica.
Michael Fox:  David explains that this is the country’s most important monument. Back in the day when it was erected at the end of the 19th century, it was even more imposing.
David Diaz:  At that time, it was in Costa Rica’s most important location, right in front of the last train station on the way up from the Atlantic Coast. So, this was one of the first things you would see as you arrived in San Jose. At the time, there were no big buildings in the city, and when you got off the train, you were on this hill, and you could see the rest of San Jose, and this monument was right in front of you, teaching you an official history lesson of Costa Rica.
When Costa Rican historians in the late 19th century were looking for important events to honor in their young nation, they didn’t find an independence struggle as had been fought in Mexico or South America. So, they picked up the war against Walker and called it the real independence of Costa Rica.
Michael Fox:  And it’s still celebrated today on Sept. 15, Independence Day. Independence from Spain and from the filibusters who tried to invade their country. The National Monument was erected on Sept. 15, 1895. Another statue was erected on Independence Day around that same time for the country’s most epic hero, Juan Santamaría.
He was a drummer during the Second Battle of Rivas in 1856, and like Nicaragua’s Mongalo, y Rubio, he too is remembered for burning the filibusters out of a farmhouse, though in a different battle.
As the story goes, Santamaría was shot and killed. His figure today, though, is larger than life. There’s the monument, a museum that’s named after him, and even the country’s main airport.
Flight attendant:  Ladies and gentlemen, Spirit Airlines would like to be the first to welcome you to San Jose.
Michael Fox:  If you’ve ever flown in or out of Costa Rica, you’ve probably done so at the Juan Santamaría International Airport. Costa Ricans also hold national celebrations for two battles against the filibusters each year: March 20, the Battle of Santa Rosa, and April 11, which remembers Santamaría’s heroism.
“For me, this is really important,” said one woman interviewed during April 11 commemorations, “because we’re celebrating something that happened a long time ago, but we still remember it.” David says he remembers when he was a child at school. Each year, they would do a performance of Santamaría burning out the filibusters.
David Diaz:  We would make a house with bamboo and dry leaves and branches. The boys who were blonder and whiter, they played filibusters inside the house, and the boys with darker skin were the Central Americans. One of them was Juan Santamaría.
And it was crazy because we used real fire. The boys would go and set fire to the house with the other children inside, and they’d have to run away. I don’t know how nobody died in that performance, but we did it every April 11 even though, in reality, it wasn’t really such an important event in the war.
Michael Fox:  Memory, how the past is remembered, how it’s forgotten, how it’s memorialized. This really hits home for me again and again walking the streets of Nicaragua, San Juan del Sur, Rivas, Granada.
But it’s really fascinating to be in this place with so much history tied to the United States, and yet, so much history that we in the US don’t know at all. Yet, it’s so important to remember just how much gall, just how terrifying people were at that time, supporting the ideas of Manifest Destiny and the idea that the US would expand its span forever.
Historian Michel Gobat says this concept is tremendously pervasive. It runs deeper than you can possibly imagine, and it has influenced US policies until today.
Michel Gobat:  If you see Walker simply as a pro-slavery expansionist, well, his story becomes irrelevant with the defeat of the South and the US Civil War because slavery is abolished. But I realized that Walker was actually not the end of something, but the beginning of something new. That is, US efforts to spread democracy abroad.
What’s interesting about Walker is that this is clearly part of Manifest Destiny. If you look at the definition of Manifest Destiny, it’s not just that the US is destined to conquer other countries, but it is to spread the US way of life that is associated, scholars would argue, with capitalism, but especially with democracy.
So, yes, the US proponents of Manifest Destiny really felt that the U.S. had this role, this universal role of promoting democracy. The US was seen at that time as the redeemer nation of the world.
President George W. Bush [recording]:  Today, the people of Iraq have spoken to the world, and the world is hearing the voice of freedom from the center of the Middle East.
Michael Fox:  Michel says he was developing the idea for his book on Walker in the early 2000s as George W. Bush was spreading a narrative of democracy promotion as justification for his invasion of Iraq.
Michel Gobat:  They don’t use the term Manifest Destiny, but a lot of scholars would argue that the terms they use, in many ways, reflects Manifest Destiny, so that’s why I think the Walker episode is so interesting. Because many people believe that this US effort to promote democracy via military intervention is a more recent phenomenon, or one that goes back to Woodrow Wilson in the early 20th century. But they see it essentially as something coming from above from the state.
But if you see it in terms of Manifest Destiny, you’ll see that it’s much more deeply rooted in US political culture or even in popular culture. Manifest Destiny is not a government proclamation. It’s a popular spirit, a popular feeling, a popular ideology, and so that complicates the role US interventionism abroad plays in US history. It’s not necessarily just simply a Washington thing. It’s much more part of the US DNA than commonly thought.
Michael Fox:  The 1987 movie Walker hits the nail right on the head.
Speaker 2:  Walker.
Ed Harris:  It is the God-given right of the American people to dominate the Western Hemisphere. It is the fate of America to go ahead.
Speaker 3:  Do you prize Democracy, Walker?
Ed Harris:  More than my own life.
Michael Fox:  But Walker’s movement and victory in Nicaragua also creates a counter-movement, not just in Nicaragua, Costa Rica, or Central America, but across the region. Scholars say Walker was the impetus for the very idea of Latin America.
Michel Gobat:  What scares the hell out of a lot of Spanish-American governments, as well as the Brazilian government, was that now filibusterism was no longer seen as a piratical enterprise, as an illegal enterprise, but one that now had the official support, the official sanction of the US government, and that led many Spanish-Americans and Brazilians to fear that now they’re going to be the next target.
Because what’s interesting is that the Walker episode created a lot more anxieties in present-day Latin America than the US victory over Mexico in the war of 1846-48, even though that victory led to the US conquest of the largest Latin American territory ever, and Walker disappeared after two years.
The reason why Walker was much more of a threat to South Americans was the fact that this was expansion by sea and not by land. With the case of Mexico, by the time US.troops, if they’re going by land to reach Patagonia, that would take a while, but sea is a whole different story.
So, that led a lot of these South American countries, including Brazil, to forge a military alliance against US expansion, and it’s in that context that you get the rise of the idea of Latin America.
Michael Fox:  In other words, the concept of Latin America arises in response to the threat from Walker, as does a renewed sense of Central American identity.
Historian David Diaz.
David Diaz:  When the events occur with Walker and the filibusters, there are newspapers in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Costa Rica that begin to use the concept of a Central American identity. Not only Latin, but specifically identifying those who live in the region between Guatemala and Panama. They have a particularity that they share history, they share culture, they share many things, and that makes them a group called Central Americans.
In 1856, a newspaper in El Salvador even uses the term “Raza Centroamericano”, or Central American race, in opposition to the Anglo-Saxon race represented by Walker and the filibusters.
So, together with the concept of Latin America, the war against the filibusters reaffirms the idea that there is a Central America. That might seem obvious now, but it was not back in the day.
The legacy of Walker’s impact is impressive, for Costa Rica’s nationalism, the historic significance from language, to the definition of the geographic region and the very concept of a “Central American” race.
Michael Fox:  Juan Santamaría’s drums were silenced outside the farmhouse in Rivas more than a century and a half ago, but the music plays on. The musicians in the youth orchestra say they learn about Walker in school. It’s a cautionary tale of ideas, culture, and institutions invited in and then imposed on them from abroad.
“We have to preserve our traditions,” says Isaac Javier Lopez Duarte. He’s a young trumpet player. He stands out behind the farmhouse on a stretch of grass that was occupied by Walker and his men almost 170 years ago. “If you lose your traditions, you lose your country, because that’s what it means to be Nicaragüense. The music, the dance, the culture, the events,” he says. “So many things.”
So many things.
That is all for episode 8. Next time, I bring you back to Nicaragua to another occupation, but this time at the hands of US Marines in what would become the longest US occupation in the history of Latin America, and set the scene for the brutal Somoza Dictatorship and the Sandinista Revolution. That’s up next on Under The Shadow.
For this episode, I’d like to particularly thank Michel Gobat, David Diaz, and Victor Acuña for their guidance and interviews about Walker and this crazy period in US and Latin American history.
As always, if you like what you hear, please check out my Patreon page, patreon.com/mfox. There you can also support my work, become a monthly sustainer, or sign up to stay abreast of all the latest on this podcast and my other reporting across Latin America. 
Under the Shadow is a co-production in partnership with The Real News and NACLA. The theme music is by my band, Monte Perdido. This is Michael Fox. Many thanks. See you next time.
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<item>
<title>The mass protest decade: From the Arab Spring to Black Lives Matter</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/the-mass-protest-decade-from-the-arab-spring-to-black-lives-matter</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Hedges]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Fri, 12 Apr 2024 16:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Racial Justice]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[The Chris Hedges Report]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=311921</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="681" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C681&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="A fire burns at a gas station on Lake Street on May 29, 2020 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Protests have been ongoing in the state and around the country since George Floyd's death while in police custody on Monday. Photo by Stephen Maturen/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C681&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C511&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1022&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1363&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C798&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1043&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1331&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C266&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C681&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>The 2010s were a decade of global protest. Why didn't the worldwide revolt translate to tangible, lasting change?]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="681" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C681&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="A fire burns at a gas station on Lake Street on May 29, 2020 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Protests have been ongoing in the state and around the country since George Floyd's death while in police custody on Monday. Photo by Stephen Maturen/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C681&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C511&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1022&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1363&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C798&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1043&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1331&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C266&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1216238959-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C681&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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The 2010s were a decade of revolt. From Athens to Atlanta, Santiago to Seoul, a global wave of protest brought masses of people into confrontation with the status quo, demanding an end to neoliberalism, racism, climate change, and more. Yet despite this upswell of grassroots political activity, little lasting, positive change followed. What sparked the past decade of mass protest? Why didn’t it result in political transformation? <a href="https://twitter.com/Vinncent?" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Vincent Bevins</a>, author of <a href="https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/vincent-bevins/if-we-burn/9781541788978/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">If We Burn</a>, joins The Chris Hedges Report for a retrospective on the decade that set the world on fire, and how to adapt its lessons for the challenges ahead.
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Studio Production: David Hebden Post-Production: Adam Coley
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Chris Hedges:
There was a decade of popular uprisings from 2010 into the global pandemic in 2020. These uprisings shook the foundations of the global order. They denounced corporate domination, austerity cuts, and demanded economic justice and civil rights. The Occupy Wall Street Movement, the Black Lives Matter demonstrations following the execution of George Floyd in 2020 are cases in point. There were also popular eruptions in Greece, Spain, Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen, Syria, Libya, Turkey, Brazil, Ukraine, Hong Kong, Chile, and during South Korea’s Candlelight Revolution. Discredited politicians were driven from office in Greece, Spain, Ukraine, South Korea, Egypt, Chile, and Tunisia.
Reform, or at least the promise of it, dominated public discourse. It seemed to herald a new era. Then the backlash, the aspirations of the popular movements were crushed. State control and social inequality expanded. There was no significant change. In most cases, things got worse. The far-right emerged triumphant. What happened? How did a decade of mass protests that seemed to herald democratic openness, an end to state repression, a weakening of the domination of global corporations and financial institutions, and an era of freedom sputter to an ignominious failure? What went wrong? How did the hated bankers and politicians maintain or regain control?
What are the effective tools to rid ourselves of corporate domination? Joining me to discuss the failure of these popular movements and the resurgence of the right-wing is Vincent Bevins, former foreign correspondent for the Los Angeles Times and The Washington Post, and the author of If We Burn: The Mass Protest Decade and The Missing Revolution. I have to say, I was far more optimistic. I spent a lot of time in Zuccotti Park, but you’re right, it completely… all of the advances that we thought we had made have been, at best, erased and often rolled back. But let’s go back to, as you do in the book, where we were in that moment in history and what happened.
Vincent Bevins:
Yeah, thank you. I do think that there are some victories, some partial victories, but certainly the moments that were experienced as euphoric victory in so many places around the world tended to end up with something far worse than what seemed possible in those moments. I tried to write a history of the world from 2010 to 2020 built around mass protests that got so large that they either overthrew or fundamentally destabilized existing governments. This really starts in Tunisia at the end of 2010, which inspires Egypt early in 2011. Egypt, of course, like every other uprising in the book, in the world, has its own particular reasons for taking off.
But this inspiration that’s coming from a smaller country, North Africa, is part of the story. And then, Tahrir Square really inspires quite a lot of movements across the rest of the decade. I call this the Mass Protest Decade. You could easily call it the Tahrir Square Decade. You see-
Chris Hedges:
This is when the Egyptians occupied Tahrir Square, which is this gigantic square in the center of Cairo and camped out there much like the Occupy Movement.
Vincent Bevins:
The Occupy Movement did that because they were copying Tahrir Square. There was a protest on January 25th, 2011, aimed at police brutality. Now, the organizers that put together January 25th had not even planned to call for the fall of the government, let alone expected to see the numbers flow into the streets that would make that possible. Yet, a lot more people come to the streets than expected. Then, on January 28th, they really take downtown Cairo. The protest turns into a battle with the police and the police lose. Now, in that moment, they could perhaps have done a lot of different things.
What they do is they take the square, they stay in Tahrir Square for 18 days, and eventually Mubarak is ejected. If you want to look very, very closely at how that ejection happens, it’s, in a narrow sense, perhaps a military coup, but it is a military coup that can be seen as very progressive compared to what was happening previously, especially if elections are really going to go forward. And so, around the world in 2011, you get the… not only are people taking inspiration from Tahrir Square but often copying and pasting that tactic. Occupy Wall Street is Adbusters Magazine saying, we should do Tahrir Square in New York.
You get movements in Spain and Greece that are, to a greater extent in Spain than in Greece, trying to replicate this model. You get this model inspiring not only activists to act a certain way into the 2010s, but inspiring people like me to view other things later as if they’re kind of the same thing, even if national and political circumstances are very different. But I do think the decade, of course, starts with Tunisia, with the self-immolation of Mohamed Bouazizi, but really this mass protest form and this phenomenon, comes together in the 18 days in Tahrir Square.
Chris Hedges:
You mentioned that when the Egyptians occupied Tahrir Square, they didn’t begin with a call for the government. What’s interesting about that self-immolation, he was a fruit seller or just had a cart, and the police had taken away his scales to weigh his fruit. But this was a protest built around a very personal, in particular, injustice, but it, of course, resonated.
Vincent Bevins:
Yes.
Chris Hedges:
This was the very corrupt Ben Ali regime, resonated throughout Tunisia. That’s an interesting point, that when these protests erupt, they don’t necessarily have a macro goal in mind.
Vincent Bevins:
Well, the Tunisia example is really interesting, not only because it sets off so much of what happens elsewhere, but from… even with the advantages of looking back 10 years in the past or with the distance that is given to us, or even some with the distance that was enjoyed or felt to be enjoyed by journalists, looking back on late 2010, just in the middle of 2011, it’s easy to see one thing happening. But if you look back at Tunisia, you can really trace day to day how it is that one man dies, what the circumstances are before he dies, how the people around him start to argue about what that means and what should be done next.
Then, I went back, so this book is built through interviews. I did 200 to 250 interviews in 12 countries, and I did go back to Sidi Bouzid and I talked to members of his family, members of his community, people that worked with him that didn’t have their scales taken away. You had a process where there were people that had already been part of rebellions in the region, labor rebellions, responses to the brutal neoliberalism that had been unleashed on their part of North Africa. There were more formal organizations, that they decide to take this lone act of protest, this cry out against this one very particular injustice, and to turn it into a small-scale protest.
You can see other groups joining and turning that into an even larger protest. And then, you can see now a national movement where a large union organization joins, and then civil society groups join. You can really, by going chronologically, and this is the method that I choose to employ in this book, by really looking at what happens, it seems very simple. On one day and then to the next day, you could see how… it is the people around Mohamed Bouazizi that decide what it means that he has done and would decide what to do with it and ultimately send a dictator, literally fleeing the country.
Chris Hedges:
It’s interesting that this contagion, which was certainly true after the French Revolution. The French Revolution inspired much of the consternation of the French planners, the Haitian uprising, but it’s a very similar process where it spreads to, I don’t know, nine or 10 different countries at least.
Vincent Bevins:
Yes, and so we see this historically. We do see that uprisings and revolutions come in waves. We see that it’s always really hard to put together what exactly causes these clusters to emerge. But we do see these clusters, and I think media is a big part of how this happens. In 1848, we see a cluster of uprisings. I think what happens in the 2010s is the process of media reproduction accelerates to such an extent that it’s not like a guy on a horse that’s bringing a newspaper from one country to another country in Europe that expand… Oh, my God, look what they’ve done in France. You can see three seconds later how this person responded to a tear gas canister arriving at their feet.
This is something that I experienced. Strangely, this arrived in my life in a weird way when I was working in Sao Paulo in 2013, this constant and immediate back and forth between protesters in Brazil and in Gezi Park in Istanbul. I think that this inspiration has always happened as far as, we have records of clusters of revolutions, but the acceleration of this process really mattered in the 2010s. I think this allowed for people to draw inspiration immediately and it also, in some ways, allowed for people to copy and paste tactics rather than thinking about exactly what is the best thing to do in this case. How can we build upon the energy and the inspiration we’re drawing from this case over here?
They often just thought, well, it’s just the exact same thing. In the case of the Tahrir model, this was one that was reproduced not only in other countries with very different social and economic and political systems, of course. Mubarak is different than Barack Obama. You often still saw the replication of the Tahrir model after the coup that installs Sisi in 2013. You see this copying and pasting continuing after the original case falls apart. I think that a lot of people overstated the importance of social media early in the 2010s. There is this narrative that it’s all about social media, and that’s a good thing.
I think I come down now saying that it’s partially about social media, and to the extent that that’s true, it’s not really a good thing. But that is one change that I think really matters. The acceleration of reproduction of images and texts through mainstream media, through social media that allows for rapid inspiration to be taken for better or for worse.
Chris Hedges:
Well, you saw it after the Cuban Revolution.
Vincent Bevins:
Absolutely.
Chris Hedges:
So, everybody tried to replicate it. And Che is, of course, killed in Bolivia, but it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work because the conditions that made the Cuban Revolution possible are no longer there, largely. Also, they’ve understood how to fight it.
Vincent Bevins:
This is something that matters, is that back in the 2010s, some of the more naive commentators about the importance of social media, about how this is going to lead to transparency, forgot that enemies, that bad guys also learn how to use tools. They pay attention.
Chris Hedges:
Right. You call them the techno optimists.
Vincent Bevins:
Right. This was a real dominant narrative back in the early 2010s. It was Evgeny Morozov that said, “Hey, look, bad guys are also trying to learn how to use the Internet.” In the case of the Cuban Revolution, and this, I think, is relevant for May 68 as well. Some of the participants in May 68, when it didn’t work that time and other people were trying to do it again, they came to the conclusion, well, you can only really surprise the ruling class once. Once they’ve seen a very specific tactic succeed, usually, if possible, they’re going to set up a counterattack for that. They’re going to create defenses for something like the Cuban Revolution. So, there were waves of Guevara’s revolutionary attempts afterwards, but it wasn’t just the leftist that had watched and learned from the Cuban Revolution, it was also the dictatorships around Latin America and the rest of the world.
Chris Hedges:
Yeah, and you write about this, the Jakarta Method-
Vincent Bevins:
Yes.
Chris Hedges:
Your other book, after, what, a million people are killed in Indonesia and that cross-pollination doesn’t only exist among the opposition or the revolutionaries but from the ruling elite as well. You think that the failure of these mass movements is that they didn’t implement hierarchical discipline and coherent organizational structures to defend themselves even when they achieved power, in Greece and Honduras. Talk about that, because, of course, the ethos of these movements was consciously not to be hierarchical, not to create that traditional model.
Vincent Bevins:
Yeah, this is something that is explicitly believed in by some participants. In many other cases, this is just the form of rebellion, the form of protest that is possible and easiest to carry out given conditions. So, I’m not sure if I would say that the failure of the protest is that they have this orientation. I would say that they have this orientation for real material and ideological reasons. In some cases, especially in the North African cases, it would be very hard to put together even if you… and many people did really believe in hierarchical revolutionary organizations. Civil society had been decimated, for example, in the Egyptian case.
Regardless of people believed in hierarchy or didn’t, some didn’t, a lot of people did, it was just… this was not something that was really available. It was hard to put together very quickly. In the Brazilian case, for example, which is very different, the one that I know most closely because I lived through the uprising in June 2013, the originators, they would never want to be the leaders, but the originators, the early organizers, they believed deeply in horizontalist principles, absolutely no hierarchy, full consensus decision-making, no division of labor. There would never be any difference between anybody.
Nobody could be told what to do no matter what. What I say is that while some of the participants in these movements were horizontalist, a lot of them were concretely horizontal. Even if some people would’ve liked to put together the kind of organization which would allow for collective decision-making or would allow for mediation with any existing government or would allow for somebody to step into a power vacuum when it was created. Most of them just didn’t have that. And so, this type of protest, this particular approach to injustice, this particular way of responding to elites or governments that are committing abuses comes together in the early 2010s.
There’s a lot of different ingredients in this recipe, and I try to trace where they all come from, but they all come from somewhere. But even the people that put them together largely in the anti-globalization movement or the alter-globalization movement, people on the anti-authoritarian left, didn’t put them together thinking they were going to overthrow dictators. What happens in the 2010s starting, especially in Cairo, but starting more specifically in Tunisia, is that this particular recipe, this apparently leaderless, apparently spontaneous, horizontally structured, social media-driven mass protest is far, far more successful than expected at getting people on the streets.
Far more people come out than anybody had even hoped for. This is, on the one hand, a huge success and this is a strength because given the kind of societies that we’re living in, having an invitation extended to you that says essentially, no matter who you are, no matter what you believe, as long as you’re with us on this one big thing, even in some cases it wasn’t even one big thing, as long as you’re with this movement in the streets, you’re invited. You can participate as an equal with everybody else. You don’t have to be in any kind of an organization. You don’t have to have thought about this until it’s five minutes ago.
This is incredibly effective at allowing people to surge into a public square, sometimes stopping a society from existing or at least stopping the military, in many important cases, from supporting a leader who’s now been discredited. This particular style of protest generates huge opportunities, unexpected opportunities. In that case, I think this concrete horizontality, this lack of hierarchy, whether that’s intentional, whether or not it’s just the state of things, is indeed incredibly successful at creating opportunities. I think those opportunities come in two very broad shapes. Again, I’m trying to tell the history of a whole decade but every case is very different.
Often, people like me made the mistake of thinking they were all the same. But there’s two types of opportunities that are made. Either a government is sent packing and there’s a power vacuum, there’s no one in power. Or, an existing government is so scared of the streets, an existing government is so afraid of losing power that they’re willing to give something. They want to offer some kind of a serious concession or a deep reform to the street movement. Now, at this moment, in the moment of the unexpected opportunity, the movement that is very horizontal, leaderless, that has no means for making a collective decision, easily, at least maybe would take… but not in the short amount of time that is often provided in these moments of opportunity.
A protest, it turned out, more specifically a protest of this type, of the particular type that becomes dominant in the 2010s, turns out to be very poorly constituted to entering a power vacuum, very poorly constituted to taking advantage of an opportunity where there’s really no government. And then often, to the horror of a lot of the organizers, turned out not even to be able to elaborate in a legible way, to the existing elites in these less pronounced cases where the government’s not fled the country, but they want to give the streets something. Brazil is a case like this. Brazil, you have a popular central left president.
Certainly, the original organizers wouldn’t want her to be overthrown. Ultimately, she is, indirectly, perhaps because of the mass protests, but she’s looking to the streets and saying, “Okay, what do you want?” Even in that moment, it seems impossible for the streets to come up with an answer as to what it is they want. This is what a leader really cares about, especially a leader that’s a real bad guy. If there weren’t bad guys, there’d be no reason for protests in the first place. A bad guy wants to know, if I give you A, B, C and D, will I get stability again? And so, often in that moment, what you want, or at least historically what has been the decision made, is to ask for A, B, C, D and E.
Maybe you know that if you don’t get D and E, that’s okay. But if you get A, B and C, you can, as a union, would credibly promise to the bad guy. If we get these things, we’ll go back and we’ll build back stronger. In these moments of opportunity, neither thing seemed possible, entering the power vacuum as a protest or elaborating a set of demands as a very, very horizontally structured protest. In some cases, it doesn’t go so poorly. But in the cases where it does go quite poorly, the very general answer that I have as to how they were not exactly failures but how they experienced defeats that were worse than they ever expected, is that somebody else did take advantage of the opportunity.
Chris Hedges:
Well, you are right. The ruling class fills the vacuums, but they do it by rebranding themselves. This is really Obama, really. It comes out of the Chicago political machine, probably the dirtiest political machine in the country wins Advertising Age’s Marketer of the Year in 2008. The marketers knew just precisely what he had done. He was a marketer’s dream. I think the lack of a hierarchical structure, the lack of well-defined demands, and perhaps even the lack of any kind of solid ideological foundation made these groups very vulnerable to manipulation, which is what happened.
Vincent Bevins:
Yeah. I found them, at least in the cases that I analyze, vulnerable to co-optation, which is the lighter, the nicest form of the three possibilities. Outright hijacking, so not just like, we’re going to take your message and dilute it or water it down. Outright hijacking. Okay, you’re on the left, we’re on the right now.
Chris Hedges:
Where was that? Where would that be an example?
Vincent Bevins:
Hijacking? Brazil would be one case, I think. This is a case where the original organizers of the protests, they’re a group called the MPL, the Movimento Passe Livre. They’re a group of leftists and anarchists. Within one week you get a new group of protesters on the streets that intentionally copies that acronym. They come up with a new group, this is the MBL, and instead of being leftists and anarchists, they’re a group of libertarians and right-wing students that are funded by… either have trained with the Koch Brothers or have been funded by US think tanks.
They succeed in tricking quite a lot of people into believing that, one, they’re the same thing as the original protesters, that they’re the same people, and then, that they’re now in a leadership position of the next protest wave.
Chris Hedges:
I covered the Fall of Ceausescu, and the Securitate managed to do exactly the same thing, hijack the entire movement. They executed Ceausescu and Elena as fast as they could, and they did precisely that.
Vincent Bevins:
Then, in other cases, you have imperialist counterattack. In other cases, you have the biggest, baddest guy in the neighborhood or perhaps in the entire global system. Libya, NATO, uses legitimate complaints about the Gaddafi government, legitimate citizen demands upon their own government as an excuse to launch a regime change operation. In Bahrain, one of the clearest cases of a country where the people are not represented by their government. You have a Shia majority and a Sunni minority monarchy. In that case, you simply have Saudi Arabia and other countries from the Gulf marching over the bridge and crushing the uprising.
This mass of millions of individuals, and this is an oversimplification, but at their weakest, they were often millions of individuals with millions, if not, more ideas as to what the thing was all about. It turned out, in many cases, in the 2010s, to be vulnerable to co-optation, hijacking or imperialist counterattack, and in many cases, vulnerable to misrepresentation carried out by people like me. Again, I did lots of interviews with major participants, people in government, people that are experts on these uprisings. A lot of the organizers told me that they found this particular form, by the end of the decade, was particularly vulnerable to misrepresentation.
One Turkish sociologist, [inaudible 00:23:53], in the book, paraphrases Marx’s 18th Brumaire, those who cannot represent themselves will be represented. I think there’s an analogous situation here in the 2010s where movements that cannot speak for themselves will be spoken for. For example, in Egypt, a lot of people told me that they were shocked to see that global media showed up and said that their movement was about the opposite demands of what they thought it was about. They thought that they were, necessarily, a democratic Egypt would necessarily challenge Washington’s partners in their region, Israel and Saudi Arabia.
Then, you get global media showing up and saying, this country wants to join the West. They want to be in the minor leagues of America. They want to be junior partners of Washington. People that put together January 25th and January 28th in Egypt often came together through a decade of pro-Palestine solidarity and protest against the invasion of Iraq. Because there is a concrete mass of individuals with no one that can say, actually, we’re doing this in a way that Martin Luther King could do. Again, not everybody that supported Martin Luther King in a march was part of some hierarchical organization, but by virtue of being there, they were often assenting to him to be able to speak in some way for the movement.
Because Egypt often didn’t have that, some of the original organizers were horrified to see leaders selected either by CNN or by social media. Some post goes viral and now that’s the person speaking for the movement. Or, global media walks around the square and looks for the person that’s saying what they want to hear. Now, our movement that we fought to build over the last 10 years is being rendered as its opposite.
Chris Hedges:
That was true with every movement I covered. The international media would come in and define it in their terms, which were often… it completely ignored the core of the movement or the orientation of the movement. They recreated the movement. I want to ask about Guy Debord, Society of Spectacle, because this is also a very pernicious force within the movement, the playing to the cameras, the creation of spectacle as opposed to organizing.
Vincent Bevins:
Yeah, and I think this is another thing that this strange slippage really matters, this slippage between a protest into something else. Because when you’re at the moment of a protest… Again, my book is only about cases of mass protests that becomes so big that they become something else and then, oh, this is great for this particular moment. Oh, there’s a whole new set of rules for which we’re… there’s a game that we’re not prepared to play. I find that protest itself is always somehow a communicative action. It’s always somehow a media action. That’s not to be dismissive of it, but protest as a human activity, as a phenomenon, historically, emerges alongside mass media.
People didn’t do it before mass media existed, and you could see why they wouldn’t. You wouldn’t go to the square in the center of a nation. Actually, nations didn’t exist before mass media either, but you wouldn’t go to the square in a capitol and demonstrate to just the baker that’s actually working on that corner if no one’s going to reproduce the images. To the extent that a protest is communicative, depending on who you’re trying to reach, it may be the case that you want to somehow perform. It may be the case that you want to at least demonstrate what we believe in. This is who we are, this is what we believe in.
Maybe even to some extent, this is the kind of way that we want to interact in the world that we’re wishing to create. But I think this dominant form of protest in the 2010s became so hegemonic, often even seeming as the only natural way to respond to injustice, that sometimes it was forgotten that there’s a difference between when communication is the right action to take and when you really need to take away someone’s power or put someone else in power. In some cases, you had protests continuing and there wasn’t really anyone to protest to, or the protest was continuing even when the person you were speaking to agreed with you and was saying, okay, well, now what do we do?
You wouldn’t get the mass scaling up of the protest that we saw in the 2010s without some positive reproduction that happens between some vicious or virtuous cycle, depending on how you want to interpret it, between media and the thing on the ground, social media and traditional media, which often work together. If you don’t have some positive representation outside of the actual one part of downtown New York or Central Cairo where people can actually see with their own eyes, you’re not going to get lots of people joining. That is usually part of, at least this package, is some kind of a performance and some kind of a bid to say, we’re a good thing. You could join us.
Now, again, the dark side of this is that if the media doesn’t think that you are a good thing, it’s incredibly easy for them to pick one person, the stupidest person that shows up, or someone that the government has sent in, an agent provocateur, and say, “Oh, look. Look at this stupid thing this one person’s done. That’s what the movement’s really about.” Many protesters told me this, so I don’t want to act as if I’m criticizing smugly from the outside because this is something that a lot of my interviewees told me. “We got caught up in a cycle, and it took us a while to realize this, that we internalized the kind of stuff that Western media wanted to see, and then we did it, and then we saw that it worked, and then we did it again.”
It’s the kind of cycle that I think is familiar to social media users. You figure out what people like to hear and then you do it. Then, many of them came to the conclusion by the end of the decade, well, it turned out that what Western media was going to reproduce was going to give lots of positive coverage, was not the thing that was going to get the concrete results from this or that action that we really needed to help real people in our country.
Chris Hedges:
I want to ask about an absence of political theory, which I think characterized many of the movements, I would even argue the Occupy Movement, which I was involved in and very supportive of, and how many times they retreat into popular culture, V for Vendetta, for instance, as reference points.
Vincent Bevins:
Yeah. Again, this is something else that many of my interviewees told me. Because V for Vendetta, for those… I remember, you remember, wearing this mask was somehow…
Chris Hedges:
Oh, you’d see it in the protests.
Vincent Bevins:
All the time. This coded US revolutionary in some way or another. Then, this group, Anonymous, which, again, there was a strange case in Brazil where someone just put on the mask in Brazil and everyone assumed that they were Anonymous, but it turned out it was just a person that was in the mask. At the end of the decade, people told me that they had, to some extent… Well, people told me two things. Three things. I’ll do three things. We wish that we had organized better before the eruption because we never saw it coming. But if we had been a little bit more organized before it arrived, we would’ve done better in this scrum that we hadn’t anticipated.
Two, we wish that we had just simply read more history of revolutions. Every revolution’s new. You don’t want to foreclose the possibilities of the future by reproducing the past, but things tend to happen. You tend to have a counterrevolution. You tend to have a moment that is difficult. You tend to have a moment like this. A lot people told me that, we wish we had spent more time reading history of revolutions.
Chris Hedges:
Well, this was the secret of the Bolsheviks. They studied minute by minute, the Paris Commune, which lasted a hundred days. Once Lenin and Trotsky lasted a hundred days, they considered this a huge victory. But I think you’re right, this was the power, in that they were steeped in revolutionary theory.
Vincent Bevins:
Again, you brought up Cuba a few moments ago. Che Guevara was waiting for the Bay of Pigs before 1959. He was waiting for the US counterattack before the victory because he’d been in Guatemala in 1954.
Chris Hedges:
Arbenz, yeah.
Vincent Bevins:
Yeah, he knew how things go. He know there’s going to be a counterattack and he had prepared for it. People told me that they wish they had studied more revolutionary history, and many people told me, and this was quite tragic, that we believed in some sense. Many people made these analogies. We believed in this Hollywood idea of, okay, the bad guy falls and magically, the whole world gets better. One guy uses the end of the Lord of the Rings when Sauron, I don’t even know how to pronounce that, I only watched it because he told me this, that the evil wizard falls, and then across the land, flowers sprout up from the earth.
Or, in the case of V for Vendetta, which I watched, if you look at its actual political content, not the movie, I heard that the graphic novel is much more sophisticated, but I’ll re-watch the movie because that was really dominant. In the decade, you get one guy creating clips, essentially viral clips, that get all of society ready to rise up, and then they just march in a giant mass on the capitol. But there’s no analysis of, well, then what’s going to happen? Because the people in the Capitol, if they’re bad enough, they’ll just kill all those people. They’ll shoot all of them. But if they run away, then what is this? Who are these men? What are they asking for?
Again, I think it’s very easy now to act as if that was a mistake. I think what it is, is that it’s the type of response that was possible and that emerged historically. The reason that people sat down with me for this book is because they believed that this can be the beginning of something bigger and something better, and they wanted to learn from the missed opportunities, the organizational forms that were lacking. Because my starting point for this investigation is that this is the decade, as far as we know, who knows how to count these things, really, is that this was the protest in which… sorry, this was the decade in which more people protested than in any other previous decade surpassing the ’60s.
The desire to change things is there. People are willing to take risks. It seems there is a real and deep will across the global system to change and improve that global system. This became apparent very quickly in ways which weren’t expected and generated opportunities and challenges which weren’t expected. Yeah, some people came to the conclusion that, oh, well, yeah, it turned out to be we got further than we expected, which meant that there were opportunities that we had not planned for.
Chris Hedges:
I want to read two quotes from your book. One is from an Egyptian human rights campaigner, Hossam Bahgat, and this is what he tells you. Organize, create an organized movement and don’t be afraid of representation. We thought representation was elitism, but actually it is the essence of democracy. Then, you quote a Ukrainian leftist, Artem Tidva, who says, “I used to be more anarchist. Back then, everyone wanted to do assembly. Whenever there was a protest, always an assembly. But I think any revolution with no organized labor party will just give more power to economic elites who are already very well organized.”
I just want to interject before then, because I was in Zuccotti at the beginning, and when they had the assemblies, they worked when they were small. But by the time they got to 4,000 people, it was paralysis. Kropotkin writes about this actually, caps the number at 150. Once it becomes a mass movement, consensus doesn’t work, and I think that is one of the points of your book.
Vincent Bevins:
Yeah. I want to go to Hassam’s quote quickly but, yeah, I think one lesson that had emerged already in the 20th Century and some people had held onto and some people had forgotten, is that whether you like it or not, every group of large individuals has a structure of some kind. Whether you like it or not, if there’s enough individuals, if there’s enough people, especially if there’s power to be grabbed, if there are resources to be claimed, no matter what your inclination is, leaders will emerge. There will be some kind of leadership. In a large enough group of people, there will be leadership.
The question, going back to these discussions in the 20th Century is, not whether or not you can get rid of representation forever, not whether or not you can get rid of leadership forever, because even if you would like to, it seems, at least historically, that’s never been the case. The difference between leaders that you choose, leaders that you can remove when they’re doing a bad job, a structure that you have decided on or a structure that is imposed upon you. What often happened, and Artem is speaking to a phenomenon which was painfully common to a lot of these movements in the 2010s.
Okay, the guy on stage was knocked off the stage, but then the people that were in the wings just entered, right? I don’t know if it was him that put this, we effected, essentially, a game of musical chairs at the elite level.
Chris Hedges:
That’s what happened in Egypt.
Vincent Bevins:
Yes. Yes. I asked everybody the same question. I like Hassam’s quote because he was very busy. Living in Sisi’s Egypt right now is not an easy thing. The world was crumbling around him as he was giving me this interview. But he put succinctly and elegantly, what, about 200 other people had said. That is the condensed, perfectly polished gem of wisdom that maybe hundreds of people put to me in some other form that… create an organization, do organization now. Representation is actually how you construct a democracy. It’s not something that you can avoid, even if you might.
Philosophically, I’m sympathetic to the urge to reject it, especially when all of the representative structures that we actually have either frayed or disappeared or become a farce in the last 40 years. It turns out you need it. But I absolutely take your point about numbers. This is something that the Brazilian group discovered. Again, this was an opportunity that they had not anticipated. The Brazilian group that set off the mass protests that I lived through, the Movimento Passe Livre, the MPL, this group of leftists and anarchists, they came from the anti or alter-globalization movement.
A lot of them worked for indie media, which I remember is a very important part of my childhood in covering the Seattle protests in ’99 and so on. They formed in 2005 and they were explicitly horizontalists. Some would say now that they were dogmatically horizontalists. But from 2005 to 2013, this worked pretty well. There was 40, 50, 60 people at the meetings and, yeah, the meetings would last forever. It might be annoying to get everybody to come onsite, but it worked. These 50 or 60 people knew each other well enough that they created quite a good plan, really a brilliant plan for igniting a popular revolt in June 2013.
But when they do ignite a popular revolt in 2013, it doesn’t go the way that they expect. Different people show up on the streets than they expected to see. It’s not the working class that they want to help. It’s often center, right, middle class, more privileged Brazilians that come out to the streets. And then, a really strange moment confronts them when Brazilians that are inspired by what they’ve done, want to join the group. They’re inundated with recruits. They weren’t trying to recruit anybody, but there’s all these Brazilians that show up and say, “We want to join the Free Fare Movement. We want to be part of your organization.”
But they don’t know what to do, because if you’re a group of 40 committed activists that know each other and work out everything through consensus, and you let in a thousand people, now the movement is just whatever those thousand people think it is. However, if you create a training program, something that the civil rights organizations of the ’50s and ’60s, [inaudible 00:40:11] Martin Luther King would’ve certainly done, that to them was a betrayal of their horizontalist principles. Somebody said, well, that’s a Leninist deviation. We can’t do that.
We can’t create the original organizers and the new people that we’re training, so they didn’t know what to do. It exploded the movement. They essentially just went away. They stopped organizing protests and eventually were torn apart by not only internal divisions, but by the revolt that they intentionally caused. But, yeah, it was that question of rapid scaling up in numbers that really called the bluff on their horizontalism because it worked when there was just them. But when everybody else wanted to join, actually, they didn’t agree with those people, and they didn’t want to let them overtake the movement.
Chris Hedges:
You make, I think, a very important point. You write, the disciplined political organizations are not in… I’m paraphrasing, in and of themselves, sufficient as Greece’s left-wing, the Syriza government proved. If the leadership of an anti-establishment party is not willing to break free from the existing power structure, this was the curse of Greece, they will be co-opted or crushed when their demands are rejected by the reigning centers of power. I thought that was a very important point.
Vincent Bevins:
Yeah, I think so. Again, this is a very difficult game. A lot of the lessons that emerged through these conversations in my book are not easy. They’re easier said than done. One thing that I try to avoid in this book is the idea, which was dominant sometimes in the 2010s, that there’s one weird trick for a revolution. There’s one perfect riot that you can carry out, and then that’s it. But even when there are structured organizations, even when there are real movements that can act collectively, they need to be always in dialogue with the less organized masses.
Even in the most structured, disciplined… if you want to accept the narrative of the most clean revolutions of all time, because none of them are clean, they still rely on the support of lots of people that are not in these types of organizations. The organizations, something like Martin Luther King’s organization, or the Cuban revolutionaries, there’s not that many of them, but when they march in Havana, if the people of Havana attacked them, then it wasn’t going to happen. That’s not a revolution, right? You’ve won a battle against the military, and then you’re not going to take over the government.
The organized group needs to always be in close contact with the people that have other things going on in their lives, because normal people are always going to have other things going on in their lives, but also needs to be very aware of the elites, the pre-existing system that they’re going after. What are the interests of these people? How can you act upon them? How can you really seek to transform the society that you’re up against?
Chris Hedges:
Well, the tragedy of Syriza, and I think this is the point you make, is that they ended up replicating the programs of the people they were fighting against in order to survive as an entity rather than, essentially, turning on those power structures with full-throttled rejection.
Vincent Bevins:
That’s a familiar story, right, throughout politics is, if the dominant system is too strong, then the easy move often is to reproduce what already exists rather than to seek to fundamentally transform it. This is especially true, which I think is very relevant for many cases in the book, Greece included, and which is why I… well, the reason I concentrate on cases outside the United States is because most of the protests that actually get big enough to qualify for my own criteria are outside the United States. But this is something that is easier to forget as a citizen of the US that if you’re not in the United States, there’s always bigger, more powerful countries around that are limiting the range of movement.
For a country like Greece, obviously, it was very famous in constant fights with Germany. But in the cases of North African countries, Egypt, Libya, your range of movement is limited by regional power structures than the global system. Again, it’s a horrible, cruel reality and you can’t just wish it away. But the better you understand the range of movement that is possible, the better you’ll be able to plan for.
Chris Hedges:
I want to ask, this is a point in your book that the Iranian-American sociologist, Asef Bayat, makes. He lived through the Iranian Revolution, the 2011 uprising in Egypt, and he distinguishes between what he calls subjective and objective conditions for the Arab Spring uprisings, and argues that the protesters may have opposed neoliberal policies, but they were also shaped by neoliberal subjectivity. Explain.
Vincent Bevins:
Yeah. This is a really interesting point that several thinkers in different parts of the world come around to, across. There’s similar trajectories, the Turkish thinkers, Iranian thinkers, thinkers in the Arab world. Rodrigo Nunes, this Brazilian philosopher, that come into conclusion that not only were a lot of these movements aimed at neoliberal economic structures, aimed at a particular set of societal conditions that were opposed on them, often from above, with the help of multinational organizations like the IMF and the World Bank, these were also people that had been living in neoliberal societies for decades.
What this meant at the subjective level is living in a society which exhorts everyone, calls upon all of us to think of ourselves as individuals first, to think of ourselves in the extreme case as one man or one-woman businesses operating in a market rather than part of a real collective struggle. Often, what you get in certain moments is people make the move to brand themselves on social media rather than to take part in some collective struggle. We are so individualized, these various thinkers would affirm, that it became impossible to even imagine what it really takes to act collectively and overthrow a government.
Chris Hedges:
I think it’s correct. You say that, essentially, that imbibing that belief system is de-radicalizing the movement. It may speak in radical terms, but the way it responds to power is shaped by the wider society and by neoliberal ideologies.
Vincent Bevins:
This is something, as you just quoted, Artem said, the ruling class is always organized. They’re always in concert. This is something that Adam Smith understood back hundreds of years ago. The ruling class is always organized. The more individualized to the society the people below are, the more limited they’re going to be in taking effective collective action. A society in which everybody… and social media both, I think, reflects and incentivizes this type of behavior, to think of myself as a brand, as an individual firm, that is always trying to find my place in the marketplace rather than acting collectively.
Asef Bayat points to the differences between the types of demands that were made in the 2010s versus the types of revolution, the revolutionary horizon that would’ve been obvious to most people in the global south, in the second half of the 20th Century, which was a collective transformation of the economy along more equal lines, if not socialist or communist lines, a collective transformation of society. The demands that tended to be elaborated in the 2010s, alongside other more traditional demands were often more formal. Often the things that rose to the top were things like anti-corruption, things that everyone can agree on, things that are more purely political or even symbolic demands.
I forget who put [inaudible 00:48:13] this to me. If you are making two types of demands on elites and one type of demand is going to take away their money and privileges and the other type of demand is purely symbolic or cultural, you’re going to get the symbolic or cultural one.
Chris Hedges:
I want to read, to close, a quote from your book and have you comment. You say the horizontally structured, digitally coordinated, leaderless mass movement is fundamentally illegible. You cannot gaze upon it or ask it questions or come up with a coherent interpretation based on evidence. You can assemble facts, absolutely, millions of them. You are just not going to be able to use them to construct an authoritative reading. This means that the significance of these events will be imposed upon them from the outside. In order to understand what might happen after any given protest explosion, you must not only pay attention to who is waiting in the wings to fill a power vacuum.
You have to pay attention to who has the power to define the uprising itself. I think that’s the heart of your argument and I think you strike at the core of why these movements failed.
Vincent Bevins:
Yeah. I was in the strange position of being called upon to do the second thing. I remember, and this was a very strange experience, not only because people like me had no business trying to define this, I think fundamentally illegible explosion on the streets of Brazil. But what we were doing essentially was going out and trying to ask as many people as possible, what are you here for? What are you here for? What are you here for? What I found, because I knew the other foreign correspondents in Brazil, is that we all came back with a narrative that suited our pre-existing ideological biases. I don’t think we did this on purpose.
We saw something that made sense, that fit, that complemented the structures already existing in our brain. The president, at the time, I found out… the story came to me later. She also was trying to figure out what the streets were asking for. And so, she sat in her presidential palace, as Dilma Rousseff in 2013, with the television on watching media coverage of the protest and just reading the signs. She turned off the volume because she didn’t want to be influenced by the journalists that were coming up with their own interpretations. She’s trying to figure out what this really is all about. This is a strange and absurd scenario, right? Because she wants to help the protest.
She was tortured by the US-backed dictatorship. She believes in street action. She believes in dissident pressure on governments, but yet she cannot gaze upon this thing and come up with an answer. She’s limited because she can’t walk the crowds like I can. She’s limited to what the cameras are showing her. The cameras of often oligarch-owned, right-leaning media in Brazil. Now, 10 years later, there are directly contradictory narratives about what June 2013 was that you will hear. The [inaudible 00:51:21] Movement, the defenders of extreme right president, Jair Bolsonaro, will tell you, “Well, that’s where we were born. That’s when our movement came together.
That’s when we realized that we could take the streets and we could take power.” Then, the anti-authoritarian left will say, “June 2013 was about the people standing up for better social services. It was about progressive values and about an opposition to police brutality.” Some members of the Workers’ Party will say, “Well, this was the beginning of a parliamentary coup that had support from outside of Brazil.” These three very contradictory narratives, I think they’re all correct. You cannot look upon June 2013, and no one has, there is no authoritative reading. There’s so many things were happening.
Different things were happening from one day to night, from city to city, it was so entirely different that you were able to construct so many different narratives. Again, in a situation where various narratives can be constructed with existing facts, it is the actors with the biggest microphones that win. The actors with the biggest microphones in the case of Brazil were these oligarch-owned, center to right-wing outlets. Then, when there is a vacuum that cannot be filled, it is the people who are already either organized or have quite a lot of power or the ability to act quickly, because acting quickly is important in these moments of revolutionary opportunity to take advantage of it.
And so, that might be national elites, as it was in the case of Brazil, sometimes with foreign backing, or it might be in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, marching over the bridge and crushing an uprising.
Chris Hedges:
Well, this is what makes a figure like Lenin. I’m actually not a fan of Lenin, particularly pretty immoral, but brilliant in terms of being able to read quickly what was happening around, because the Bolsheviks were a tiny minority, actually. But I think it buttresses your point, that without being steeped in revolutionary area and political theory and without having a highly disciplined and structured organization, and I would add a figure like Lenin, who is able to read quickly because the October Revolution would’ve never happened without Lenin.
Even Trotsky dragged his feet, Stalin didn’t want it, et cetera. That combination, I think, we’ve seen throughout history is key in order to make these popular movements successful. Would you agree?
Vincent Bevins:
Yeah. Certain things that come out of that, Lenin doesn’t invent, but he crystallizes in some of the works that become famously associated with him, were simply common sense at the time. I think they turned out to be common sense in 2010s. They get called Leninism because there was a state that put forward him as the man that came up with these ideas. But one of those is that there is no revolutionary movement without a revolutionary theory. One of the things that you can read in What is to Be Done?, and this is something, again, that 50 people told me in the course of my interviews, but they used different words, of course, is that a purely spontaneous uprising will simply reproduce the society that already exists.
Because the ruling class would not be the ruling class if they did not have the means at their disposal to get out their message and to assert their power. If literally everybody comes to the streets, now, you just have the existing society, but everyone’s outside instead of inside. Your question points to the importance of, I think, what would be called in that literature, some kind of a revolutionary theory. Because if you just ask everybody, “Hey, aren’t you mad about things?” The answer is always yes. What are you mad about? Now, you’re going to get more answers. Now, what to do about it? Now you have a real problem.
These are two points that were made very famously by him, but a lot of other people put to me, and these were people that also very often would not… Not all the movements that I look at in the book are even left-wing, some of the movements I think would be more properly characterized as right or center. A lot of people that hate Lenin put to me some version of these two points in contemporary language. There is no revolutionary movement without a revolutionary theory, and a purely spontaneous uprising will simply reproduce the existing society.
Chris Hedges:
But it’s also that deafness, being able to read all power to the Soviets, which resonated, especially in the industrial sector in Russia. But what it really meant was all power to the Bolsheviks.
Vincent Bevins:
Ultimately.
Chris Hedges:
He destroyed the Soviets. That’s why we don’t have any anarchist history of revolution because he lined them up against the wall and shot them. But I think the points you make are key, and I think that your dissection of the failure of the movements, I think you completely nailed it.
Vincent Bevins:
Oh, well, thank you very much.
Chris Hedges:
It’s a very important book.
Vincent Bevins:
Thank you very much. I tried to, as I said, write a work of history so, looking backward on this, we are limited to the things that have happened so far. Maybe in the future, things can go very, very differently. It’s, I think, one of the driving hopes, but I’m grateful that these people were willing to sit down with me and make it possible to try to tell this global story which-
Chris Hedges:
Well, it was important because they were involved and then they went back and were self-critical, and were quite upfront with you about where they had been mistaken and that things had gone wrong.
Vincent Bevins:
Some of these people, almost all of them, incredibly smart and brave people, had spent 10 years polishing those perfect gems of wisdom that I’m allowed to just take and present in the book, like Hassam there, as you’ve just quoted. I was very grateful that they allowed me to try to give this global vision to the story, which I think is hopefully part of understanding what happened and what can happen next.
Chris Hedges:
Great. That was Vincent Bevins, author of If We Burn: The Mass Protest Decade and The Missing Revolution. I want to thank The Real News Network and its production team, Cameron Granadino, Adam Coley, David Hebden, and Kayla Rivara. You can find me at chrishedges.substack.com.
]]></content:encoded>
<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">311921</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>‘Do the right thing,’ say Assange defenders as Biden mulls dropping case</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/do-the-right-thing-say-assange-defenders-as-biden-mulls-dropping-case</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brett Wilkins]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Thu, 11 Apr 2024 15:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Julian Assange]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=311887</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="A supporter of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange protests outside the Australian High Commission in central London on April 10, 2024, on the eve of the fifth anniversary of his arrest by British police. Photo by HENRY NICHOLLS/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>"This would be the best decision Biden ever made," said one supporter of the jailed WikiLeaks publisher.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="A supporter of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange protests outside the Australian High Commission in central London on April 10, 2024, on the eve of the fifth anniversary of his arrest by British police. Photo by HENRY NICHOLLS/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2147029148-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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This story originally appeared in <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/biden-assange" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Common Dreams</a> on Apr. 10, 2024. It is shared here with permission under a Creative Commons (CC BY-NC-ND 3.0) license.
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U.S. President Joe Biden on Wednesday said his administration is weighing the Australian government’s requests to drop charges against WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, who has been deprived of his freedom since 2010 and is currently jailed in London’s notorious Belmarsh Prison while fighting extradition to the United States.
Asked by reporters at the White House about <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/assange-australia" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">requests</a> from Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and members of the country’s Parliament for the U.S. and United Kingdom to drop the extradition effort and charges against Assange—an Australian citizen—Biden said that “we’re considering it.”
Stella Assange, Julian’s wife, responded to Biden’s remarks on social media. “Do the right thing,” she <a href="https://twitter.com/Stella_Assange/status/1778091558216093948" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">wrote</a>. “Drop the charges. #FreeAssangeNOW.”
Srećko Horvat, a Croatian philosopher and co-founder of the Democracy in Europe Movement 2025 pan-European progressive political party, <a href="https://twitter.com/HorvatSrecko/status/1778122216124678553" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">said</a> that “this would be the best decision Biden ever made.”
British journalist Afshin Rattansi <a href="https://twitter.com/afshinrattansi/status/1778097297311625254" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">asked</a>, “Why has Julian Assange been put through this ordeal in the first place?”
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-width="550" data-dnt="true">As <a href="https://twitter.com/POTUS?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@POTUS</a> responds “we’re considering it” to a media question about Australia’s request to drop the prosecution of Julian Assange, RSF reiterates our long-standing call on the Biden administration to drop these charges, close the case, and <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/FreeAssange?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#FreeAssange</a>! <a href="https://t.co/AYozIF1SzQ">pic.twitter.com/AYozIF1SzQ</a>— RSF (@RSF_inter) <a href="https://twitter.com/RSF_inter/status/1778120820675502191?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 10, 2024</a></blockquote><script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Assange—who is 52 years old and suffers from various health problems—faces multiple U.S. charges under the Espionage Act and Computer Fraud and Abuse Act for his role in publishing classified government documents, some of them revealing war crimes and other misdeeds. Among the files published by WikiLeaks are the <a href="https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">“Collateral Murder”</a> video—which shows a U.S. Army helicopter crew killing a group of Iraqi civilians—the <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/25/afghanistan-war-logs-military-leaks" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">Afghan</a> and <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/22/iraq-war-logs-military-leaks" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">Iraq war logs</a>.
Three U.S. administrations have pursued charges against Assange. During the administration of former President Donald Trump—who is the presumptive 2024 Republican nominee—officials including then-Secretary of State Mike Pompeo <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/06/06/spains-high-court-demands-pompeo-testify-alleged-plot-kidnap-or-kill-assange" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">allegedly</a> plotted to assassinate Assange to avenge WikiLeaks’ publication of the <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2017/03/07/vault-7-cia-hacking-tools-revealed" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">“Vault 7”</a> documents exposing CIA electronic warfare and surveillance activities. In 2010, Trump <a href="https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/04/politics/kfile-trump-wikileaks/index.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">called for</a> Assange’s execution.
The U.K. High Court <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/uk-high-court-assange-extradition" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">ruled</a> last month that Assange could not be immediately extradited to the U.S., where he faces up to 175 years behind bars if convicted on all counts. The tribunal gave the Biden administration until April 16 to guarantee that Assange won’t face the death penalty. Absent such assurance, Assange will be allowed to continue appealing his extradition.
Last month, Assange’s legal team <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/assange-plea-deal" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a><a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/assange-plea-deal" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">denied reports</a> that a plea deal with the U.S. government may have been in the works.
Assange has been imprisoned in Belmarsh since 2019. Before that, he spent nearly seven years in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London, where he had been granted political asylum under the government of leftist former President Rafael Correa.
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-width="550" data-dnt="true">Thursday 11th April will mark 5 years since Julian Assange has been incarcerated in the UK's most secure prison for publishing – having been detained in the UK in one form or another for almost 14 years For championing the public's right to know he faces a 175 year sentence if… <a href="https://t.co/Y4TNFPfL3A">pic.twitter.com/Y4TNFPfL3A</a>— WikiLeaks (@wikileaks) <a href="https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/1778060422593081608?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 10, 2024</a></blockquote><script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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The United Nations Working Group on Arbitrary Detention <a href="https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=17012" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">found</a> in 2016 that Assange had been arbitrarily deprived of his freedom since his first arrest on December 7, 2010. In 2019, Nils Melzer, then the U.N.’s special rapporteur on torture, <a href="https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2019/11/un-expert-torture-sounds-alarm-again-julian-assanges-lifemay-be-risk?LangID=E&NewsID=25249" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">said</a> Assange had been subjected to “psychological torture.”
Following the High Court’s decision last month, <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/tag/amnesty-international" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Amnesty International</a> legal adviser Simon Crowther <a href="https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/03/uk-high-court-adjournment-of-appeal-leaves-julian-assange-and-all-media-workers-in-limbo/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">said</a> that “the U.S. must stop its politically motivated prosecution of Assange, which puts Assange and media freedom at risk worldwide.”
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<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">311887</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>‘Sports Illustrated’ and the death of sports media</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/sports-illustrated-and-the-death-of-sports-media</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Zirin]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Wed, 10 Apr 2024 18:35:33 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Edge of Sports TV]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[The Cultural Front]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[edge of sports]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=311828</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Atmosphere at the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue Launch Party held at the Hard Rock Hotel on May 18, 2023 in New York, New York. Photo by Lexie Moreland/WWD via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>The debacle at 'Sports Illustrated' shows how hedge funds and venture capitalists are doing to sports media what they do best: destroying it.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Atmosphere at the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue Launch Party held at the Hard Rock Hotel on May 18, 2023 in New York, New York. Photo by Lexie Moreland/WWD via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1256155148-1-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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Editor’s note: After this episode was recorded, Authentic Brands Group announced that Sports Illustrated would live on after Israel’s Minute Media acquired publishing rights for the magazine. 
Layoffs, lawsuits, license revocations. The tragicomic spectacle unraveling at Sports Illustrated bears all the signs of a familiar tale: how hedge funds can take a functional, beloved brand and transform it into an anemic husk of its former self by mercilessly draining it for profit. Washington Post National Sports Culture and Politics Reporter <a href="https://twitter.com/MrMichaelLee" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Michael Lee</a> joins Edge of Sports for a frank talk on the putrid effects of venture capital and hedge funds on sports media, Black Lives Matter in sports, and more.
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Studio Production: David Hebden Post-Production: Taylor Hebden Audio Post-Production: David Hebden Opening Sequence: Cameron Granadino Music by: Eze Jackson & Carlos Guillen
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Dave Zirin: Welcome to Edge of Sports TV only on The Real News Network. I’m Dave Zirin. We are going to talk right now to Washington Post national sports culture and politics reporter Michael Lee about sports journalism, Black Lives Matter in sports, activism, and what it all means. Let’s talk to him right now, Michael Lee. Michael Lee, thank you so much for joining us here on Edge of Sports TV.
Michael Lee: Hey, thanks for having me.
Dave Zirin: All right, let’s put on our serious hats, if we can. It looks like the NFL might be buying a stake of ESPN. We know what’s happening with Sports Illustrated, which makes a lot of people around our age well up a little bit. The Athletic, where I know you used to work has taken over the New York Times sports page. Beyond the work of folks like yourself, is the era of a thriving independent sports media as we have known it, is it done? Are we past the point of having the kind of sports media that I think we so dearly need?
Michael Lee: As long as the money is shifting towards hedge fund guys and venture capitalists, yeah, that’s what’s happening. I think when you don’t have creatives in charge and having the vision of creatives, then all you’re going to do is just try to make a money-making operation that is doomed to fail. Primarily because for these creative industries, like journalism is… I mean, yes, we have a serious task of holding truth to power and trying to make sure that we uphold certain values and principles. We’re protected by the First Amendment and everything like that. But when people who are running it view it as leverage to make money as opposed to a means to serve a greater purpose to the people, you’re going to see the collapse, you’re going to see things fall, you’re going to see things ruined, mainly because you don’t have the vision. And that’s really what I look at whenever I see these things happen, where we have layoffs, we have buyouts, you have cuts, you lose talent. And you don’t just lose talent, but you lose your soul because a lot of times, the people who get cut are the veterans who’ve been there for years. They understand the systems. They understand the angles. They know all the anything. If you have a veteran basketball player, a football player, they can teach the young guys how to manipulate things and operate and maneuver more effectively. But if you cut those people out, you’re doing damage for the people who are coming up in their development. So I think that, yeah, as long as the people with money don’t have that vision and their whole purpose is to try to view this as a means to make money as opposed to a greater purpose in terms of educating people, informing people, and also just providing them an outlet for pleasure, you’re going to see situations like this only get worse. And I think that’s where we are now, because the money, and where the money is being shifted, the big money, the billionaires, when they start coming in and manipulating this and not seeing the vision from an artistic perspective, that’s where you see the failings.
Dave Zirin: Wow. I realize I spoke for you in my question, talking about Sports Illustrated. I know when I heard about what is basically its downfall, it moved me, thinking about what it meant to me coming up. But I don’t know if it had that same effect on you as a young person looking at that magazine and thinking, this is what I want to do. I was wondering if you could reflect on that for a moment.
Michael Lee: Absolutely. I mean, Sports Illustrated was the ideal. It was the model. So many great writers came through there. I know the inspiration for me to even get into sports journalism was Ralph Wiley. That was the guy that I just looked up to. One of the first books I read on my own outside of school, guys like him, Rick Reilly. There’s so many. Steve Rushin. So many great talented guys — I could go on all day. Jack McCallum. People who I read constantly and tried to take in what they did and try to create my own style based off of what I read. It was a model magazine. I would get copies every week, and I would devour it, and not just because I love sports, but because I love writing, and that’s what inspired me. So I don’t know where kids are going to find that inspiration the way I did. Obviously things have changed. You don’t have a physical paper or a physical magazine the way you did. You just scroll on your phone or whatever, on your computer, so it’s a different feel. But it’s something about, for me, going out to the mailbox, having something that was addressed to me, and feeling those pages and flipping those pages and reading that, and it was a great feeling. My kids, I don’t know where they’re going to get that kind of rush. Because it’s the same kind of rush I would get from music when I would have a CD or an album or something physical in my hand that really made it seem like a dream.
Dave Zirin: Well, just like you and I would read Ralph Wiley’s articles and see his name and think, ooh, that’s who I want to be.
Michael Lee: Yeah.
Dave Zirin: There’s no doubt in my mind that people read your work and see the name Michael Lee and say, ooh, that’s who I want to be.
Michael Lee: Yes. I got a little extra money for you.
Dave Zirin: But there’s a big but though. There’s big but — No, no, no. There’s a big but here. Don’t worry. What is your advice then to aspiring sports journalists? Is this still a profession worth pursuing? If a young, bright-eyed, bushy-tailed person with talent came up to you and said, I want to be like Michael Lee, what do you say to them?
Michael Lee: Well, what do you want to be when you say you want to be like me or anybody else in this profession? Do you want to be somebody who does what he loves, or do you want to be somebody who wants to be famous? Do you want to be a celebrity in this, or do you want to be somebody who’s really trying to seek the truth or try to find inspiration and really try to pursue your passion? If you’re going to pursue your passion and you pursue what you love, everything else is going to fall into place. You’re going to face disappointment. You’re going to face cuts. You’re going to see a lot of your friends and colleagues get dismissed, and it’s going to be disheartening. But what is motivating you, and what is it that you really want out of this business? If you just think you’re going to go in there and just be on ESPN and become a Stephen A. Smith and just have a top-ranked show and make millions of dollars, that’s going to be hard. There’s only one guy that’s doing it right now like that. But if there’s something in it that you want out of this, if there’s something that you dream about doing. Like me, I knew my ceiling as a basketball player was high school. I wasn’t going to go beyond that. But I also knew I wanted to be around basketball one day. Then I wound up covering the NBA for 20 years, and covering three Olympics, and the multiple 13, 14 NBA finals, and however many All-Star games. And so I got a chance to be around basketball because it’s what I wanted to be around and what I love. And so if you feel like this is what you want to pursue, then don’t let anybody… Don’t let the nos keep you from pursuing your dream because you’re going to get a lot of nos. I tell this when I talk to college kids sometimes, the difficult thing in life is when you realize that nobody cares, really, about your feelings, and not everybody’s going to like you. And so when you get those things through your skull, what do you have left that you’re going to be willing to pursue and fight for? And if it’s yourself and if it’s your passion, then you’re going to find that worthwhile. It’s going to be a struggle, but everything’s a struggle. You’re not going to be able to walk right in and have your dream job right away. I remember covering high schools out of college and being frustrate, and wondering if I was ever going to get a breakthrough. But I look back and I appreciate those times. I appreciate that struggle because it made me more appreciative of when I actually was able to have those moments where I’m like, man, I can’t believe I’m doing what I always dreamed of doing.
Dave Zirin: Recently, a writer that we both know, Jeff Pearlman, was asked that question. You might’ve seen this on social media, and he gave a response that, I do have to say, felt like a response that was about five years old, where he said, be a Swiss army knife, become an expert on everything, and you’ll have no problem. And a lot of people pushed back and said what you said, frankly, which is these VCs are tearing these jobs apart. What does it matter if I can podcast, if I can write, if I can do TV? What does it matter if, at the end of the day, like you said, Michael, the people with the most institutional knowledge are usually the first people on the chopping block? I know this industry is in such flux, so it’s impossible to ask you to have a crystal ball or anything. But do you see, in the future, a way around this, so people like you and I can tell young sports writers that this is a life worth living as long as you’re not obsessed with that end goal but love the process?
Michael Lee: Yeah, I think a lot was lost in what Jeff was trying to say. I think he meant it in the most sincere, thoughtful way possible: make yourself indispensable. The one thing about, like I said earlier, is that no one’s really indispensable, and everybody’s replaceable, and we just have a chance to occupy positions for as long as somebody’s willing to employ us. And you have to view that through the level of everybody. Think about what we had just this past month. We had Bill Belichick, who people say is the greatest coach of all time, retire, and he was replaced a day later. They found his replacement a day later. It didn’t take a long to find somebody to fill those shoes. Nick Saban, the greatest college coach of all time, said, I’m leaving college football. They found his replacement within a day or two. So no matter how great you are, no matter what you do, you can always be replaced. They’ll always find somebody that’s willing to do your job. So what you have to do is really value the opportunities that you get and take advantage of it because they’ll always find somebody who’s willing to do what you do. They may find one person who’s willing to do three or four jobs that people have been doing. And that’s just the way it is. And so you got to understand your position. If somebody is writing a check and you’re salaried and you’re an employee, then you have to understand that you can easily be let go no matter what you’ve done or what your accomplishments are, no matter what your achievements are. They allow you to maintain that seat for a little bit longer. But just know that you can’t ever get complacent. You can’t ever sit back and think, well, I’ve made it. One of the greatest things, books, Jackie Robinson, he always said, “I never had it made.”
Dave Zirin: That’s right.
Michael Lee: And you could look at him and you could say, oh, what you did. You are a rookie of the year. You won World Series champion. You did all these great things. You broke the color barrier in baseball. But you can’t ever get to a place where you feel like, well, yeah, man, I’m finally here, and it’s just great. You got to know that you can always be replaced. You’re always expandable, so you got to take it and appreciate it. When I first started covering the NBA, it wasn’t a job that I was handed. I was filling in for somebody. And I’m not a big Eminem fan, so I’m not going to act like I am, but I played “Lose Yourself” like every day because I was really in that moment and I knew I couldn’t let it go. This is my shot. I had to go in there, and I had to have this desire to like, okay, they opened the door for me, but they messed up, because I’m coming in, and I’m ready to… I’m busting through the door. You’re not going to kick me back out now. And that’s the mentality that you have to have. You’re going to face disappointment. I faced disappointments throughout my entire career. And so there are just things you got to understand and you got to value. And you can’t really sit back and say, oh, man, it’s so tough, man. I don’t know if I can really fight through it. It is hard. It’s disappointing. And I’m speaking as somebody who’s really faced some hard times. But you got to also know that, when you get those opportunities and you have the chance to do something great, that you got to take advantage of it and know that it’s fleeting, just know that it’s fleeting, it’s not promised. Nothing is promised to you in this business as long as you’re relying on someone else to pay your salary.
Dave Zirin: Right. One more journalist question, if I could. You did an amazing job on, let’s call it the beat, of the Black Lives Matter movement in the world of sports. And sometimes I take a step back and I think, wow, Colin Kaepernick taking that knee for the first time was seven-and-a-half years ago.
Michael Lee: Amazing.
Dave Zirin: Amazing. Seven and a half years. That’s like the difference between 1960 and 1968. It can be a political lifetime. So that issue of athletes using sports as a platform to speak about racial inequity and police violence, has that era, is there a cap now on that era and it needs to be rebuilt? Or you have a mind of, well, it’s ongoing. It’s just more of a placid period right now? Because I know a lot of people who think, yeah, kids 18 right now were 10 when Kaep was doing his thing, something’s going to have to be rebuilt because that era has been effectively, I don’t want to say memory holed, but effectively put in the backseat. And I wanted to know your perspective. And then with the bigger question, when do you know when a story is over?
Michael Lee: Man, that’s a great question, because I’ve actually thought about that myself. I’ve wondered where is the activism in professional sports, and was that a moment that we just had, and we just got to just appreciate that we had it? Because I honestly don’t have the answer. And it is something that is floating through my mind. One thing that, when I think about what Kaepernick did, it was such a risk, and he lost his career. And you can even see up until last fall, he still wanted a shot back in the NFL that you knew was never going to happen. And I think that all you’ve seen since has been a lot of safe protests. There are moments where the NBA has allowed players to take a knee or they’ve allowed guys to put things on the back of their jersey during COVID. And I think that guys are finding safe spaces to say things that aren’t offensive that don’t really put them in a position where they can lose anything because there’s so much to gain. There’s so much money to be made now. The salaries have reached exponential levels that we probably didn’t think could happen. Ohtani got a $700 million deal. If you can reach that kind of money playing a sport, you might want to zip it up a little bit because they will get rid of you if you make everybody feel a little bit too uncomfortable. So I think that the money has silenced guys. And also knowing that what you can lose, guys are trying to figure out ways that they can maneuver without losing anything. And I think that’s where we are now. And there’s not issues that are really pushing them to speak out. Maybe there are, but I noticed that no one’s saying anything about any of these wars going on in the world. No one’s speaking out on anything on that behalf because there’s so much more to lose than there is to gain. And I think right now guys are just trying to get this money.
Dave Zirin: Yeah. It’s funny, I was talking earlier with former NBA player Tariq Abdul-Wahad, and he said something very similar as he’s attempting to find athletes to speak out for a ceasefire with regards to Israel and Gaza. So what you’re saying rings very true.
Michael Lee: Yeah, I think you’ve seen guys… You saw what happened to Kaepernick, he lost it all. And I don’t want to go to this extreme, but think about it like this. I know sometimes people say, why are there no more MLKs? Why are there no more Malcolm Xs? Why are there no more leaders of that caliber? Well, they were killed. And everyone saw what happened to them. So if that’s the case, if that’s the reward at the end, not everybody’s brave enough to say, I want to take that path. Just to bring it to the sports level, Kaepernick spoke out, and what he did was noble and admirable and everyone respected it. And obviously, he got respect for days for what he did, but he lost what most of the guys aren’t willing to sacrifice, which is their careers. And when you see him even saying, I want to play now, and I’m still capable of playing if you give me a chance, and everyone’s turning their head to him, it’s like, well, dang. What do I really want out of this life? Do I want to be an activist or do I want to be an athlete? And I think that if you’ve invested your whole life in being an athlete, and you’ve kind of gone down that path, and this is what you’ve made your whole life about, you’re not willing to give that up. And if you want to really try to do things when you’re done playing, maybe you will. But there’s so much at stake beyond just the money, but also your career, that I don’t think guys are willing to lose all that the way Kaepernick did.
Dave Zirin: And of course, got to mention that you’re wearing a Muhammad Ali sweatshirt right now.
Michael Lee: Yes, yes, yes.
Dave Zirin: And it’s one of those things where it’s been said by others that he was only truly embraced by this country once he lost the power of speech.
Michael Lee: Absolutely.
Dave Zirin: And this idea that they make you make that choice between being an athlete and an activist, when I think a lot of folks would have no problem, if they felt like the risk wasn’t there, of wearing both hats with comfort and confidence. Look, we’ve been talking about journalism in big picture, but I’d be remiss if I didn’t bring up, before you go, a work of journalism that you did recently in December that was so good. And I have spread this around all over the place. You went to Mississippi, and you asked a very provocative question: If youth football is going down all over the country, largely because parents are becoming more educated about injuries and concussions, why is it still so prominent and even growing in Mississippi and Alabama? But you didn’t just think about it theoretically. You went down there and you spoke to folks to get answers. What did you come up with, and how did it change your own views and ideas about youth football?
Michael Lee: It was great. It was an altering experience on a lot of fronts, because I think you can just look at it and just say, oh, everyone, they’re in a poverty-stricken area. They’re poor. What else do they have to push them to achieve? And in Mississippi, that’s probably one of the places where it actually fits. There isn’t a lot to do in Mississippi. There aren’t a lot of things that are going to provide a positive outlet for kids down there. Such a unique place in the country where there aren’t a lot of big towns, there aren’t a lot of big cities, distractions and things to try to pull you away. There’s a country culture there. There’s a toughness there that’s instilled in these kids from a very young age. And so playing football is just a traditional thing. Your uncles played it, your father played it, everybody played it. So when it comes to be your turn, you got to do it. And so for me, the one thing that I came away with, though, that really struck me was that while we talk about poverty from a material perspective, what about poverty from a moral perspective? Which one would you value more? Would you want to be in a situation where you have all the money in the world but you’re not loved and supported? When I went down to Mississippi, I saw communities where people were living in trailers and living in really backwoods conditions, but what they had was the support of their loved ones. What they had was a constant connection to a community and to the people who love them. And so I came away with a sense that, yeah, while they may be lacking in some areas, they’re winning in other areas. I had a great conversation with one of the coaches for Starkville High, which is a school that I featured in the story. And he was like, there’s a pride in these homes. Even though you may look and say, yeah, these are poor places and they don’t have a lot, but inside that home, there’s a lot of pride. And so the kids that come out of there are going to embody what’s being taught inside that home. And he said, you can find a house on the highest hill, and you can find the biggest mansion on the highest hill, but I guarantee you, you won’t find more love in that house than you’ll find in these houses here. And so when you take a step back and try to figure out what’s really important, what’s valuable to you, what do you value, what means the most to you, is it having a paycheck that allows you to buy whatever you want, or is it having the love and support of people who are going to be there for you through whatever? And some people are fortunate enough to have it all, but not everybody does. But if you value one above the other and you’re getting that fulfillment and that support and that love from the people who you care about, then are you really lacking? And what are you really lacking for? And so I came away there with just a different perspective on a lot of different things, but one thing that I came away too is that football is something that we definitely knock because of the damage it can do to your head and your body, the long-term ramifications that it can have. But there also are people who are able to use football and not just to try to get to the NFL and become rich, but to get out of situations where they can get a college scholarship and get a job and provide for their families in a way that they may not have been in the past. So there’s so many ways you can look at it. And so that’s what I came away with this is like, it’s not as simple as saying don’t do it because you might get head trauma, because you might not get head trauma, and you might be able to provide for your family.
Dave Zirin: Well, you know what? That’s a very interesting perspective for folks to take in as we head into the Super Bowl hype season, for sure.
Michael Lee: Absolutely, yeah.
Dave Zirin: To put it mildly. Hey, Michael Lee, I really appreciate your time. Everybody should just Google “Michael Lee Washington Post” — Make sure you don’t put the word “senator” by mistake because that’s a very…
Michael Lee: Please don’t do that [laughs]!
Dave Zirin: …That’s a very different dude. So do “Michael Lee sports Washington Post”, and you’re going to get a treasure trove of articles, the likes of which will restore your faith in sports journalism. Michael, thank you so much for joining us here on Edge of Sports TV.
Michael Lee: Hey, thank you, Dave. It’s far too kind, man. I appreciate it, man. I need to take you on the road, man. You’re like Flavor Flav over here, man. ou got me all hyped.
Dave Zirin: Hey, you know what? If I could be Flavor Flav, that’s a life worth living. That’s all I’ve got to say. Get up, get up, get, get, get down. I’ll do it. I’ll do it. I’ll embarrass myself. But that’s okay. Thanks so much for joining us.
Michael Lee: Thank you for having me. It was great.
]]></content:encoded>
<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">311828</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>Illegal real estate sales of Palestinian land are happening around the US</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/illegal-real-estate-sales-of-palestinian-land-are-happening-around-the-us</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marc Steiner]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Tue, 09 Apr 2024 17:15:28 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[The Marc Steiner Show]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=311736</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Youthful Protester for Palestine holds a sign saying "Palestine is not for sale"Protest at BAYT synagogue over it hosting a real estate event showcasing land in illegal West Bank settlements. R.J. Johnston/Toronto Star via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>The sale of land parcels in Gaza, the West Bank, and Jerusalem is happening in violation of international and domestic civil rights law.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Youthful Protester for Palestine holds a sign saying "Palestine is not for sale"Protest at BAYT synagogue over it hosting a real estate event showcasing land in illegal West Bank settlements. R.J. Johnston/Toronto Star via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2131317231-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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Six months into the US-Israeli genocide in Gaza, there is little use denying that what is taking place before our eyes is an intended land grab. Israeli National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich have called for Gaza to be “resettled” and for the Palestinian population to be expelled. And in the US, the likes of Ben Gvir and Smotrich have their allies and accomplices who hope to profit from the theft of Palestinian land. Across the US, real estate events advertising the sale of land parcels in Gaza, the West Bank, and Jerusalem have begun to appear. Activist, journalist, and filmmaker <a href="https://twitter.com/RadicalEleanor" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Eleanor Goldfield</a> joins The Marc Steiner Show to discuss the recent protests against one such real estate event in Baltimore.
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Studio Production: Cameron Granadino Post-Production: Alina Nehlich
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Marc Steiner:
I’m Marc Steiner and welcome to another episode of Not In Our Name here on The Real News Network. My guest today is Eleanor Goldfield, a creative radical activist, journalist, and filmmaker whose work spans many mediums including photography, video, film, the written word, and weaving it all through music, poetry, and visual art. She hosts the podcast Act Out, co-hosts the podcast Common Censored with Lee Camp, and co-host of the podcast Silver Threads with Carla Bergman. She produced the award-winning documentary called Hard Road of Hope about West Virginia as a place that weaves together its reality as a resource colony and as a radical inspiration. And still has time for frontline action in organizing and training. Welcome, Eleanor. It’s good to have you with us.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Thank you so much for having me.
Marc Steiner:
I’m really glad you’re here. So let’s start with this working Gaza and this real estate because until I started reading all your stuff, which I was blown away with, by the way, it was really solid writing. We’ll get to that in a minute. Talk about what’s happening in Gaza with this real estate and what brought you here in the first place in terms of that part of a struggle.
Eleanor Goldfield:
So yeah, I mean the real estate event, they’ve held these, and I say they, it’s various real estate companies. The one that was hosting this event in Baltimore is CapitIL, Capit I-L. And they’re selling… If you go to their website, their properties are all in Jerusalem. And so they’re not selling properties in Gaza dot, dot, dot yet, question mark. But these events have been popping off in various places. New York, New Jersey, and now in Baltimore. And so basically, when folks heard that this was happening, there was movement both in the legal sense, both in terms of saying that this is illegal because of the contested land in Israel and occupied Palestine, but also because it goes against the Civil Rights Acts in the United States because these events are only open to Jews. And not only just Jews, but hyper-religious Jews.
In fact, some folks were saying when they tried to register for the event, they had to do a Zoom call with the organizer and the organizer asked to see their bookcase to see if there were Jewish books on there. They demanded to know where they daven, who their rabbi was.
Marc Steiner:
Where they daven?
Eleanor Goldfield:
Yeah, who their rabbi was. If another shul could recommend them to the organizer, they wanted to see it. I would never have gotten it, let’s put it that way.
Marc Steiner:
Neither would I.
Eleanor Goldfield:
So it’s like, it’s not just Jews, it’s like the far right conservative Orthodox Jews.
Marc Steiner:
But can we step back for just a second?
Eleanor Goldfield:
Sure.
Marc Steiner:
Yes, there’s something… I mean, I want to come back to how you found out about this, but who are they? Because clearly, I’ve read before from other people in some of the Israeli press saying that people are salivating over the Gaza beaches and taking them over. Not the biggest reason they’re fighting, but that is there. So talk a bit about… Give us some more background. Who are these people? I mean, what is this about?
Eleanor Goldfield:
Yeah. So in terms of… I have not been able to get statements from the real estate agencies or anybody involved with them. But as we know, the people who are taking over these lands, again, this is not Gaza, this is Jerusalem. But I think it’s interesting that because a lot of people… The people who are paying attention are paying attention to Gaza. But right now, in the West Bank for instance, and of course also in Jerusalem, there’s been a lot of violence. But it’s that the people think that because people are focused on Gaza, people aren’t going to notice what’s happening in the West Bank in Jerusalem, basically other occupied territories.
So the people putting this on are these real estate agents. And then they’re working with people in the states, whether that be these Orthodox communities here in Baltimore who put this on at the synagogue or the communities in New York and New Jersey who coordinate basically with these real estate companies that are based in Jerusalem to create these events and get people to buy property. Because that’s the whole point of Israel is to get a bunch of Orthodox Jews to move there and to occupy that space. But again, you can’t just be Jewish. You have to be a certain kind of Jew.
Marc Steiner:
You have to be from or don’t come in the door.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
From, by the way, folks, it means religious and Yiddish. Yeah.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Yeah. That’s the legal aspect that people were fighting. For instance, the Palestinian Association for Liberation, PAL, their legal arm basically has sent out these basically legal papers saying that this goes against US law because you can’t have a real estate event saying only these particular kind of people can buy this.
Marc Steiner:
It’s against the law. Yes.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Right.
Marc Steiner:
Absolutely, yeah.
Eleanor Goldfield:
And so they got one to shut down, I believe in New Jersey, the event to shut down. And actually, here in Baltimore, the event was moved probably because of protest, not because of the legal aspect. But we’re not sure because it’s not like the synagogue released a statement saying, “This is why we…”
Marc Steiner:
And which synagogue in Baltimore did you say this was?
Eleanor Goldfield:
Shomrei Emunah.
Marc Steiner:
So which is a very right wing, super Orthodox synagogue.
Eleanor Goldfield:
And I’m agreeing with you, not because I’ve been inside, not that they would let me, but because I-
Marc Steiner:
I don’t think they would let me inside either.
Eleanor Goldfield:
No, they wouldn’t. But because I saw the people who were outside the synagogue counter-protesting our protest.
Marc Steiner:
Got you. And so who was the group that was protesting?
Eleanor Goldfield:
So it was a coalition of groups, Jewish Voice for Peace, CARE, and then also PAL, as I mentioned, the Palestinian Association for Liberation. There were people like me who aren’t directly affiliated with any specific organizations who just wanted to show up and support. So there were several different groups and then a lot of different just regular individuals who wanted to show up. Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
So you know what? She was speaking. You’ve moved into the hotbed of the struggle.
Eleanor Goldfield:
That’s usually where I’m most comfortable, to be honest.
Marc Steiner:
Well, you’re in it now, sis. You’re here. I mean, the Zionist movement in Baltimore has a huge presence, very powerful. But so is the movement of Jews will oppose them. We’re living in a place that’s going to be one of the centerpieces of the battle in America be right here.
Eleanor Goldfield:
I did not know that when I moved to Baltimore that there was such a strong Zionist Orthodox community. I mean, everywhere around where we were, there was just like, “We stand with Israel” placards in people’s yards and things like that. And of course, a lot of Israeli flags. My favorite is the Israeli flag that meshes into the American flag. So it just becomes one giant colonialist shitshow flag. Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
This is a total digression.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Please. Go ahead.
Marc Steiner:
Decades ago, we designed the flag and it was a flag that put together the Palestinian flag and the Israeli flag. And then one of the versions, we turned this Israeli flag into a black and red flag.
Eleanor Goldfield:
I like it. Well, I feel very strongly that they should not be allowed to use Magen David for their violent terrorist colonialism.
Marc Steiner:
You mean the Jewish star Magen David?
Eleanor Goldfield:
Yeah. So I want to take that symbol back because they should-
Marc Steiner:
Why do you say that?
Eleanor Goldfield:
Because it is not a symbol of colonialism. It is not a symbol of terrorism. It is not a symbol of what the Israeli state, the nation state of Israel is. And so I’m offended, as a Jew, that they used that symbol to perpetuate the genocide that is going on right now in Gaza. Well, even before that, that they used it for the violent occupation that is the state of Israel. And so I feel that part of what… Like I feel that Nazis should not be allowed to use Viking symbols, although that’s to a far lesser extent than Israel with the Star of David. It’s the misuse of a symbol that has a totally different meaning than what you’re using it for. And in fact, I mean just to be a bit of a history nerd, but the Star of David was not even the official symbol of Jews until basically the Second World War.
And that’s why people listening, you might know if you go into a church or something that’s really old, you might see it or even older buildings because it was just the symbol of the shield of David. So it wasn’t even a symbol of the Jewish people necessarily. And so I think-
Marc Steiner:
It was a Jewish symbol, but not-
Eleanor Goldfield:
Right.
Marc Steiner:
It wasn’t the symbol.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Not exclusively.
Marc Steiner:
Yeah. Right, right.
Eleanor Goldfield:
And so it’s just a total bastardization of a symbol that has far more depth and beauty in its meaning than Zionists could ever really understand, to be honest. That was a digression. I apologize.
Marc Steiner:
Listen, the way we had this conversation, there’ll be a number of digressions taking place without a doubt. What you just said for me, and I think that probably is for a lot of Jews, when we use the word Nazis or Nazism and somehow that gets connected to Zionism, it’s really difficult for people.
Eleanor Goldfield:
It’s very uncomfortable.
Marc Steiner:
It’s difficult for me. As we said, before I walked in, before we walked in together, I grew up in a home in a family where there was a constant presence of people with numbers in their arms, people who lived through concentration camps in my living room and family who fought in the Warsaw Ghetto against the Nazis. And families who were forced to go to Israel because they couldn’t go anywhere else in ’48. They weren’t allowed to come here so they had to go to Israel to create this place. So for the Jewish world, it’s a really difficult emotional moment and movement, especially now as things are shifting and the Jewish community is really splitting and dividing in ways it never has before. Well, that’s not true either, but it’s a very different way of splitting right now.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Yeah. And I think I’m reminded of what… Actually, a friend of mine said his mother is a Palestinian Jew. Well, where does that fit in to the plan, the ideology of Zionism? It doesn’t.
Marc Steiner:
You mean a Jewish woman who grew up as Palestinian in…
Eleanor Goldfield:
Well, yes. Her family goes back hundreds of years. But here’s the thing, mine doesn’t. Mine does not. My father’s family, he was able to trace them back to southern Spain basically right around the inquisition. His people are not from Palestine and that’s okay. And that’s why the idea to me, like you were saying that part of your family were Bundist, what they said is that there’s this beautiful Bundist poster that I’ve used in my writings, which basically says, “Wherever we are, that’s our home.” And to me, that is what the Jewish diaspora is. We have always made a home wherever we are, and we have a right to do so. To me, it is anti-Semitic. And by that, I mean the popular idea of anti-Jewishness. It is anti-Jewish to say that you only belong in one place.
That is so fucked up to me. That is colonialism to say that you belong over here. Everything else is ours. Because I have no connection to Israel or occupied Palestine. I’m not a desert person. It’s not my thing. I have no connection to that and nor should I be forced to, because like you said, no one else will take me. And so the problem to me is that like we were saying before is that when we’re talking earlier, I think the feelings that we have in the Jewish community about Zionism are very, very complex. And it’s very important that we have these conversations within our families and our communities, and we have those conversations with love and understanding for where people are coming from. And also in the lived reality, Zionism is a disgusting and horrific colonialist ideology that should not exist for the safety and security of anyone.
As James Baldwin said, “If I’m starving, I’m a danger to you.” You can never have safety when somebody else is oppressed, especially if you’re oppressing them. So the idea that Jewish safety is found on the other side of a genocide, the Jews should already know that that’s not true.
Marc Steiner:
Well, let me step back here. Let’s unpack some of these things you just said. You said a whole lot just there.
Eleanor Goldfield:
I did.
Marc Steiner:
Which I’m not surprised at the reading which you wrote that you pack lot into those words. But let me just… You mentioned the Bundists. People listening to us may not know who the Bundists are. It’s not like a… Doesn’t roll off your lips like Zionism or Nazism or racism.
Eleanor Goldfield:
It’s not Taylor Swift. It’s not a well-known.
Marc Steiner:
Taylor Swift. Yes. Was she a Bundist?
Eleanor Goldfield:
I win.
Marc Steiner:
Talk for me just who are the Bundists?
Eleanor Goldfield:
I mean, I’ll say this basically that as long as Zionism has had a home in Jewish communities, anti-Zionism is at a home. And the Bundists basically, the ones that I’ve researched the most, primarily in Central Europe and of course Eastern Europe as well, but basically people that were fighting for Jewish rights and thereby human rights. Because a lot of Jewish radicals have never just focused on Jewish rights, but rights of all of the people, of all of the oppressed to have a right to basic freedoms. As Emma Goldman said, “Everyone’s right to beautiful things and a right to freedom.” Emma Goldman, my sister from another mister, rad Jewish woman.
Marc Steiner:
Yes, I understand.
Eleanor Goldfield:
And I’m sure other people could speak to this more eloquently than I can. But Bundists were basically workers and members of the Jewish community who were the other side of this Zionist debate in saying that, no, our right as human beings is to be at home where we are.
Marc Steiner:
So given the work that you’re doing around this issue of buying real estate, stealing Palestinian land, and selling it to Jews, especially what we’re talking about and having some right-wing Jewish congregation, Orthodox congregation being the ones who are perpetrating this, that’s a real problem. And I hear what you’ve learned from that doing this. One of the things that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately is that anti-Semitism has been around a long, long time. And as a Jew, I always grew up with them seeing that people hated us for all the wrong reasons. And this is the first time I think in our history as a people, this complex history isn’t just a history, it’s very complex history that we are causing the rise of anti-Semitism because of what we are doing. Whenever I talk about Israel-Palestine, I always use the word we’re because it’s me, then I can say, you’re not but not in my name, but you’re doing it in my name. So that’s why I think this is a very complex moment. I mean, it’s really hard.
Eleanor Goldfield:
It is so hard. And that’s also why I say the feelings are very complex, but… Well, not but, and the feelings are very complex, and the cause of those complex feelings is really simple. To quote one of my other favorite people, Nietzsche, “These Zionist Jews have become the monsters that they were trying to fight.” And it’s really uncomfortable. And like you said, when somebody talks about Nazism and Zionism in the same breath, it is super uncomfortable. I was talking to a friend the other day and I was saying something about, “Oh, well, Jews don’t prophesize.” And he was like, “Yeah, and you don’t commit genocide either.” And I was like, “Ouch.” But I was like, “I mean, you’re right, but holy shit that burns to hear it in that context.” But it’s like, “Yeah, that’s true.”
And I think that our job right now as Jews who do not believe in Zionism as an ideology that is in any way helpful or just, our job is to sit with that discomfort and figure out in our communities how to deal with that and how to generate that [foreign language 00:16:30]. Like how to pursue this justice and how to pursue it in a way that makes the world or at least olam ha-ba, like the world to come a better place, not just for Jews, but for all of the people who are oppressed. Because our place as Jews has been historically often and should be with the oppressed. So how do we grapple with these really uncomfortable and complex emotions in order to do that work.
Marc Steiner:
I want to talk about our association with liberation movements as Jews. But I got to say this one thing as we started this conversation earlier, that when we were sitting with our colleagues here, Max and Kayla and you. And you said a couple of things that really setting me off that I had not really thought about before. Uncomfortable things. And it made me think about when I was a young civil rights worker in Eastern Shore and sometimes in Mississippi and Alabama, there were white people in the south who came over to us because they sort of shifting. And I feel like this is a moment, I don’t want to say this. It’s really hard even to say. I never in my life would think that inside the Jewish world, we would start looking at what we created as an oppression to others. And your Nietzsche quotes, some of the things you said earlier when we’re sitting around together, is popping off in my head and thinking about the real consequence of that and what it means and how serious this is.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Yeah, it’s really hard to grapple with, which is why I think it’s also been really beautiful to see that there have been a lot of Jewish community members, whether that’s through just Jewish Voice for Peace or some kind of organization like that, or through religious spaces. There’s been a lot of connection to that Jewish grief and connecting to what it means when the Jews are the perpetrators, because that has not been our history and how to grapple with that. And how to grapple with the realization that the monsters we have fought are now the monsters that we are becoming. And when that’s done in our name, what is our duty? And for me, I think it might be not easier because it is a level of fear and heartbreak to have the people you’re facing be people that you were raised to respect and think were on your side. That is something that I’m not able to process yet.
But I think it’s been a little bit easier for me than perhaps some people because I have been in the anti-war movement since 2002 when we were threatening to go into Iraq for the second time. And when I realized that, oh, this is being done in my name as an American and so my job is to fight that. And so I have a little bit of a history of feeling that responsibility. And so I think that that’s also something that is new for a lot of folks in the Jewish community is because we have not had to grapple with that. So I think, yeah, it is very, very uncomfortable. But again, I think that as a good friend of mine once said who’s Dine, he said, “The way that we pray is through action.” And I think that that can also be very true for Jews.
And this is true of your own history. The way that we process and the way that we understand our history is to try and make sure it doesn’t happen, never again. It’s not just a platitude. So when we act, it is a way of prayer. It is a way of putting out into the world tikkun olam and olam ha-ba. So I think that is something that can be very powerful in these moments. And also, just contemplating and dealing with that grief of knowing that our community might never recover from the deep soul-wrenching severing that is happening right now.
Marc Steiner:
You’re right. What’s happening right now with the Palestinians and Israelis, this could become one of the most decisive moments in human history out of the west. And there’s no telling where I could stop. I mean, it could expand where it is, but it could erupt in this country, it could erupt through Europe. I mean, it’s a real danger point beyond just Israel-Palestine.
Eleanor Goldfield:
It is. And to your point about legit anti-Semitism that we see on the rise everywhere, I mean, having gone to a lot of protests where the right-winger, MAGA people talking about how the Jews own everything. And then you’re like, “Well, Biden’s sending Israel weapons every 36 hours.” So it is like what Israel says the US does. I felt like I once had a comeback for that that was more legitimate than it is now. It’s still Jewish space lasers are bullshit, but this whole APAC runs the country. I’m like, “I don’t know that I can argue with you.” So it perpetuates more like actual violence against Jews. And so how do we grapple with that at the same time as understanding that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism. And to suggest that belittles the actual anti-Semitism that’s happening, and it muddies those waters. So I think it’s really important to make that distinction and to recognize that there is violence against Jews that happens through, as you were saying, people hating Jews for all the wrong reasons.
Marc Steiner:
So neither one of us are prescient, it doesn’t exist.
Eleanor Goldfield:
I try, but-
Marc Steiner:
Wait, I do too, but I do my best. But I’m curious in terms of how you perceive the role of young Jewish activists in the struggle at the moment and the power that they actually have and probably don’t know that they have to alter the situation, and how you organize that. I mean, at heart, my history has been as an organizer, different community organizer, a labor organizer, whatever. So how do you see that happening? How do you see that shift taking place?
Eleanor Goldfield:
It’s beautiful, actually. What I think a lot of… And folks younger than me, I’m 37, they’re like-
Marc Steiner:
So you’re such an old woman.
Eleanor Goldfield:
I know. I’m a woman now. No, but I see 16, 18-year-olds that are in this fight that are on the front lines. I mean, there was a beautiful action where folks locked down and stopped access to a Lockheed Martin plant that sends weapons and creates weapons to send to Israel, several Jews. I mean, the people who blocked Biden’s access to the State of the Union. So he had to take an alternate route, a bunch of Jews. And again, this is part of our history. There’s so much organizing in our history. So I think we’re well suited to this work, first of all. And secondly, I think that the powerful thing is that you can do something by working in our own communities. I’m a huge advocate of organizing the folks that you know. And understanding that we, as younger Jews, have the ability to meet people where they’re at. So I’m sending my dad rabbinical statements from Jewish Voice for Peace. I’m not sending him the Electronic Intifada article. I love Electronic Intifada. And there are Jews who work there like my comrade, Nora Barrows-Friedman but it’s like-
Marc Steiner:
Who you turn me onto, by the way, with your writing and-
Eleanor Goldfield:
I adore.
Marc Steiner:
… I never read her before-
Eleanor Goldfield:
She is so good.
Marc Steiner:
… before I read your work.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Yeah. An Electronic Intifada is wonderful. And also, I’m not going to ask my dad to read that because you’ll see the name, he’ll be like, “Nope.”
Marc Steiner:
I’m not reading.
Eleanor Goldfield:
So I think it’s-
Marc Steiner:
[inaudible 00:24:27], get out of here.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Yeah, exactly. It’s important to meet people where they’re at. And my partner is Jewish too and he’s gotten a lot of people responding to him saying, “Look, I grew up Zionist. I had my bar mitzvah in Israel and all of this, and now I see it. I get it, thank you.” So I think that that’s also the powerful thing. People are shifting, particularly younger people. And recognizing that the work that we’re doing of just sitting down and having conversations is super powerful. And I’d say that for anything. I’ve sat down in Louisiana with old white dudes and been like, “Hey, talk to me about why you hate Democrats. I do too. But why do you think Trump’s the answer?” So having these conversations in communities that are willing to listen to you, I think is super important and also recognizing when they’re not.
I’m not going to go up to the Orthodox guy waving an Israeli flag ready to spit in my face. You’re not ready to have this conversation, sir, okay? And same thing for any issue. So I think that it’s important to recognize our history of organizing, plugging into that, meeting people where they’re at, and knowing that our role as Jews is always on the side of the oppressed.
Marc Steiner:
Two things popped in my head as you were speaking about that. One was the history of Jews in movements to fight oppression. In part because we were oppressed in the civil rights movement, in the labor movement across in Europe fighting the Nazis, fighting the fascists. But as a younger person in this movement, where do you see the future? Are you hopeful that things can change? Do you see a light that you can build and organize towards that actually see something different than what we have now? I mean, I was talking to a friend of mine who lives in Germany now, who’s Israeli. He’s among almost 2 million Israelis, almost all of them on the left who left Israel. The entire Israeli left is now in Europe or South America or Vietnam. They’re everywhere, but they’re not in Israel. I’m curious how you see the future playing out, how you see this playing out, how you’re organizing playing out.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Hope is a tricky concept, isn’t it?
Marc Steiner:
It is. Yeah, yeah.
Eleanor Goldfield:
To quote Klee Benally who was a brilliant-
Marc Steiner:
Quote who?
Eleanor Goldfield:
Klee Benally who’s a brilliant Dine organizer who unfortunately died in December. But in an interview I did with him once, he said, “I have the kind of hope that burns cop cars.” And that’s the kind of hope that I have. It is a jagged and dangerous hope, and it is unpredictable, and it oftentimes walks with a despair. That is the kind of hope that I have and yet I have hope. And I think what you just said, it gives me hope. The fact that a bunch of Israelis were like, “Actually, no. And I’m out.” And I think that we are going to see, and we are seeing it’s crumbling. A friend of mine, Abby Martin, was just on Piers Morgan. And basically, even Piers was like, “Yeah, I get this is just not great.
Even Piers Morgan. So you have the stenographers, the State Department, you have the propaganda machine struggling to keep the lie alive that Israel has a “right to self-defense,” quote, unquote, which is absurd both legally and through lived experiences. But it’s starting to crumble. And I think more and more people are starting to see that, especially in the Jewish community and having this feeling that I do not have a connection to this place. And I think a lot of this is happening through this co-organizing that we’re seeing between Jews and Palestinians. This understanding that the connection that you have to place as a Palestinian is something that I don’t and why would I? This is your home. And basically, seeing that side of the story, because that’s not something that obviously we were raised with is hearing the Palestinian side of things, most of us as Jews.
And so I think that that’s a really powerful thing that gives me hope is this confluence of stories, these shared stories of both oppression and struggle and recognizing that we have this solidarity. And so I do have hope, but I also understand that it’s not going to stop tomorrow. The US imperialist machine, as Khalidi wrote in his A Hundred Years’ War on Palestine…
Marc Steiner:
Great book.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Yeah, it is. It’s a brilliant book. It started with the UK propping up Israel and then that shifted to the United States. And United States absolutely sees itself as that protector. I mean, Biden said, “If Israel didn’t exist, we’d have to invent it.” Like, “Okay. You psychopath.” So I think we are battling the largest empire the world has ever seen and their colonial outpost of Israel and that is heavy shit. And so I think it’s also appropriate to feel weighted down by that. And again, that’s where the despair walks with the hope. But also recognize that all empires fall, all colonialism has fallen and will fall and there is hope in that. And then there is also something really powerful about understanding that the struggle is making a difference. And a lot of that… And I’m not trying to give Jews way more credit than we should have, but a lot of that I think, especially in Jewish communities, is because of Jewish organizers sitting down and having these conversations.
Marc Steiner:
It’s up to us.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Yes. This is our fight in the worst and most twisted way. And I feel a great responsibility to decolonize Palestine for the sake of not just Palestinians, but Jews and everyone.
Marc Steiner:
So I know our time is limited today and I really appreciate you taking the time here on The Steiner Show to do this. And I look forward to many more conversations and collaborations and seeing where this takes us and the struggle to free ourselves from the Zionist clutch and to free our brothers and sisters in Palestine so they can have a land of their own and for building a better world together. And I want to thank you so much for your spirit and your brain.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Likewise. Thank you.
Marc Steiner:
It’s good to meet you.
Eleanor Goldfield:
Likewise.
Marc Steiner:
Once again let me thank Eleanor Goldfield for joining us today and for her brilliant advocacy in decolonizing Jewish thought and shattering the Zionist myth. You can find more of her work at ArtKillingApathy.com and that’s Art with a capital A-K, capital A, and at hardroadofhope.com. And thank you all for joining us today. And thanks to Cameron Granadino for the show and the tireless Kayla Rivara for making it all work behind the scenes. And everyone here at Real News for making the show possible. And our brilliant audio editor, [inaudible 00:31:13] for editing our show and making me sound good. Please let me know what you’ve thought about what you heard today, what you’d like us to cover. Just write to me at mss@therealnews.com and I’ll get right back to you. And once again, thank you to Eleanor Goldfield for her work and for joining us here today on The Marc Steiner Show at The Real News Network. And once again, thank you all for joining us. Please stay in touch.
]]></content:encoded>
<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">311736</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>A cop pulls a gun on an unarmed teen. 7 years later, justice at last</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/a-cop-pulls-a-gun-on-an-unarmed-teen-7-years-later-justice-at-last</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Taya Graham and Stephen Janis]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Mon, 08 Apr 2024 22:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Baltimore]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Prisons and Policing]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[baltimore]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[police accountability]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=311710</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="654" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?fit=1024%2C654&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Jawone Nicholson and his mother Erica Hamlett describe to TRNN his harrowing encounter with an off-duty Baltimore city police officer. Photo: Stephen Janis and Taya Graham" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?w=1280&ssl=1 1280w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?resize=300%2C191&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?resize=1024%2C654&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?resize=768%2C490&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?resize=1200%2C766&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?resize=400%2C255&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?fit=1024%2C654&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>A federal jury recently awarded $250,000 to Jawone Nicholson for pain and suffering after an off-duty Baltimore cop, Damond Durant, pulled a gun on him in Howard County. The award is the result of a protracted battle by the family to hold the officer accountable.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="654" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?fit=1024%2C654&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Jawone Nicholson and his mother Erica Hamlett describe to TRNN his harrowing encounter with an off-duty Baltimore city police officer. Photo: Stephen Janis and Taya Graham" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?w=1280&ssl=1 1280w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?resize=300%2C191&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?resize=1024%2C654&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?resize=768%2C490&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?resize=1200%2C766&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?resize=400%2C255&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-08-at-12.56.22 PM-Large.jpeg?fit=1024%2C654&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
When Erica Hamlett’s 16-year-old son Jawone Nicholson called her from a Howard County cul de sac while waiting for a bus, she assumed it was a routine check-in to let her know he was en route to an after-school program.
Instead, he told her a man he didn’t know had pulled out a gun and pointed it at him. Terrified, Hamlett sprang into action.
She rushed to the site of the confrontation. Soon, she learned the man, dressed in jeans and a sweatshirt, was an off-duty Baltimore cop. Jawone told her the man had pulled the gun after confronting the teen over why he was lingering in the neighborhood. The yet-to-be-identified man had flashed a badge and was still standing menacingly nearby.
Hamlett called Howard County police. An officer quickly disarmed the Baltimore cop, Damond Durant. But Hamlett was so shaken she also started to shoot video from her phone as she confronted him.
That footage became part of a series of TRNN investigations <a href="https://therealnews.com/an-off-duty-cop-pulled-a-gun-on-teen-waiting-for-a-bus-how-will-the-city-respond" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">chronicling this fraught 2017 encounter</a> and Hamlett’s subsequent push to <a href="https://therealnews.com/when-a-cop-pulled-a-gun-on-an-unarmed-teen-this-mom-fought-back-and-won" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">hold Durant accountable</a>—efforts that came to fruition last week when a federal jury awarded $250,000 to Hamlett’s son.
<figure class="wp-block-pullquote"><blockquote>“The verdict in support of Mr. Nicholson is a clear message that members of the community will not stand for unwarranted violence against its members.”</blockquote></figure>
The judgment was the result of a federal lawsuit filed by Baltimore attorney Carey J. Hansel. The filing describes how the troubling encounter caused Nicholson mental duress, including insomnia, panic attacks, and the need for months of therapy.
Hansel tried the case with his associate, Tiana Boardman. She said the jury’s decision was a clear statement that the community would not tolerate casual threats from officers.
“The verdict in support of Mr. Nicholson is a clear message that members of the community will not stand for unwarranted violence against its members.”
The impact of Officer Durant’s actions was first recounted to TRNN in 2018 in a series of interviews in which Nicholson recalled the tense moment when Durant confronted him.
“He pulled the gun and then we put our hands up and started walking away, and he followed us,” Nicholson told TRNN in an interview shortly after the encounter.
“He came up and he never identified himself as an officer. He asked us why we were over there, asked us a few questions, and then he pulled his gun.”
For Hamlett, the encounter was frighteningly similar to many often-deadly interactions between American police and young Black men.
“He can be doing everything right, everything right, and that man had every opportunity to kill my son,” Hamlett told TRNN.
“And from the lies that he’s told since the incident, he would have had no reason not to tell a lie to make it seem like my son provoked him to do what he did to him.”
The settlement has received widespread coverage in Baltimore. However, Hamlett’s nearly seven-year odyssey has received less attention.
Initially, she tried to file an internal affairs complaint against Durant over her concern that Durant’s reckless use of a gun could occur again.
“This particular police officer broke somebody’s jaw a few years ago. The city paid out a large settlement to the suspect. And then, here is this incident that occurred with my son. So, to me, it makes the officer feel like “I can do what I want with no accountability,” she said shortly after she filed the complaint.
The city did initially accuse Durant of violating departmental regulations by filing administrative charges. But a judge tossed the case after ruling that the city filed after the statute of limitations had expired.
Hamlett also tried to obtain a restraining order against Durant, representing herself pro se in a Howard County court. The judge ruled in her favor. For her, the ordeal has been a lesson in the obstacles to holding police accountable.  
Hamlett said to TRNN, “We are relieved that after seven long, difficult, even fearful, years, we finally received some form of justice. Holding police accountable for their actions isn’t a clear nor easy path. The officer is still a Baltimore City police officer and my son still has the fight of collecting his award, but we can finally celebrate a win… but without you and those 1 million-plus comments I’m sure our story wouldn’t have gotten the attention it deserved.”
Previously, Hansel’s firm was the lead litigant in a landmark civil rights case against the Baltimore Housing Authority. The suit alleged maintenance workers traded sex for repairs at the public housing complex Gilmor Homes. The city settled for $8 million in 2016.
Hansel Law Firm has become an important facet of government accountability for Baltimore residents, as they have reached out to assist victims in litigation after our investigative series in Gilmore Homes, Perkins Homes, and now Erica Hamlett’s family. 
Hamlett told TRNN, “No one else really listened before you… We just hope that others will gain the strength to fight for justice as well.”
]]></content:encoded>
<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">311710</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>47 years later, Leonard Peltier is still not free</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/47-years-later-leonard-peltier-is-still-not-free</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mansa Musa]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Mon, 08 Apr 2024 16:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Prisons and Policing]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Rattling the Bars]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=311652</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="719" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C719&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Protesters at the nonviolent Navajo Indian Protests of 1973, in Gallup, New Mexico, organized by AIM, the American Indian Movement, protesting the mistreatment of Navajo people by federal government agencies and law enforcement agencies, 1973. Photo By Buddy Mays/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C211&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C719&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C539&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1078&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1437&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C842&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1101&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1404&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C281&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C719&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Despite being eligible for parole since 1992, Peltier remains in prison—a sign of how determined the federal government is to repress and criminalize the American Indian Movement.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="719" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C719&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Protesters at the nonviolent Navajo Indian Protests of 1973, in Gallup, New Mexico, organized by AIM, the American Indian Movement, protesting the mistreatment of Navajo people by federal government agencies and law enforcement agencies, 1973. Photo By Buddy Mays/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C211&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C719&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C539&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1078&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1437&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C842&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1101&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1404&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C281&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1739662109-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C719&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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In 1977, American Indian Movement member Leonard Peltier was convicted of the murder of two FBI agents, and has remained a political prisoner of the US ever since. Peltier’s conviction has long been contested by activists and legal experts. Despite the recantation of three key witnesses, his case has never been brought back to trial. Peltier has been eligible for parole since 1992, and the federal government has ignored calls to free him for more than 30 years. <a href="https://twitter.com/rachel_thunder?lang=ja" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Rachel Dionne Thunder</a> joins Rattling the Bars to discuss Peltier’s case and the radical vision of the American Indian Movement which the federal government has sought to repress through Peltier’s incarceration.
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Studio Production: David Hebden Post-Production: Cameron Granadino
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Mansa Musa:
Rachel Thunder, her name speaks for itself, was reared in the spirit of the American Indian Movement and active in freeing Leonard Peltier, the longest held political prisoner. Welcome to Rattling the Bars, Rachel.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
Hi. Thanks for having me.
Mansa Musa:
Tell our audience a little bit about yourself, Rachel.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
So my name is Rachel Dionne Thunder. I currently live in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I come from an AIM family, that’s the American Indian Movement, which is a Civil Rights movement for American Indian people that started here in Minneapolis in 1968. I’m also one of the co-founders and board members of our organization here called the Indigenous Protector Movement.
And so, growing up as a girl, as a little girl in AIM, I always heard stories of Leonard Peltier and those founding members of the American Indian Movement, and the injustices that they fought during the Civil Rights era in the late ’60s and early ’70s. And so, our work today is carrying that on, but also not forgetting our now elder, Leonard Peltier, who is the longest-held indigenous political prisoner. He’s been held for nearly five decades at this point.
Mansa Musa:
We’re talking about people whose nation, these are nations that’s asking for… The thing with Leonard Peltier is because of, like you said earlier, the Civil Rights. But it’s more about the human rights of a people who are claiming nationhood and the right to self-determination and the right to govern themselves. And it’s because of this that we find a situation with Lewis Peltier. But not only with him, but other indigenous people that have came and gone. And so, let’s talk about, as you spoke earlier, about AIM. Now, we recognize that, and it came out, I think the birth is in the Minneapolis, if I’m not mistaken.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
Yeah. In 1968.
Mansa Musa:
1968. We know that during that period, a series of events took place that led up to AIM being organized into an entity. We had all the tribes, various tribes come to Washington during the Nixon administration to try to get treaties that was signed, giving back properties, getting out the way of indigenous people from having their own nation. That they came to Washington with the sole and purpose of educating the populace about what was going on on the reservations, and then the different parts of the country where indigenous people was populated.
As a result of that, that put them on the radar, because they took over the Bureau of Prisons… Not the Bureau of prisons, but it took over the Bureau of Indian Affairs because they came to Washington with the understanding that they was going to be, that this was an opportunity for the federal government to acknowledge what they doing, and to pave the way for the various nations to come together and get their own autonomy.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
Right, and you’re speaking on what was the Trail of Broken Treaties.
Mansa Musa:
The Trail of Broken Treaties, right. Go ahead, talk about that.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
Which, that was a caravan that took place, where thousands of individuals went to Washington D.C. with 21 points to honor, what you were saying, our sovereign indigenous rights as sovereign nations existing here in what we call Turtle Island, which is effectively the United States and Canada. And so, as a sovereign nation, we exist separate from the United States government and the Canadian government. We are effectively our own countries, our own nations, and there are treaties that were signed with the United States government and with the Crown, actually, it’s not the Canadian government. And every single one of those treaties that were signed, which is over 570 in the United States alone, have been broken.
And in those treaties, you can find things all the way from land ownership, to hunting and fishing rights, to the rights to be able to supply our own food, our healthcare, our education. And so, all of these points in these treaties were broken, and so that was the point of the Trail of Broken Treaties was to raise awareness to that effect and to bring that issue to Washington.
And once they arrived, they found that they were not going to be hosted the way that they were originally planned to be.
Mansa Musa:
[inaudible 00:05:26]
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
Yep. And so, that was when the occupation of the Bureau of Indian Affairs occurred in Washington D.C.
Mansa Musa:
And we want to acknowledge that when things was articulated about what that actually happened, actually the distortion was that it didn’t have nothing to do with all the aforementioned things. It had something to do with savages coming to District of Columbia, taking over the Bureau of Indian Affairs. But the recognition is that no, this was an organized activity designed around and not getting an acknowledgement of certain treaties that was around it.
But as we move forward, out of this came what we know as the American Indian Movement, because that’s when it became, the organization structure started to take shape. And it’s at this juncture, and I remember it distinctly because I was incarcerated, and I was involved with a collective that was the Black Panthers, and the black Panther papers always keep us abreast of what was going on with different movements during that period. And this was one that was being highlighted, because not only did they do that, they had took over… It was a series of events that took place. They took over the island where the prison was at.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
Alcatraz.
Mansa Musa:
They took over Alcatraz, and they started policing. They started providing security for the various reservations where the Bureau of Indian Affairs and their proxies was terrorizing the community. Talk about, like you say, you are a child of AIM. Talk about your views on those things as you know them to be today.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
So the way that I was told is that the American Indian Movement was born in the prison system. Our people are incarcerated at some of the highest statistical numbers. And so what we saw during that time and what we were told is that there was a renewal, a rebirth of our traditional spiritual practices in the prison system. Our men were able to return to the sweat lodge, they were able to return to the drum, and once they had received that traditional healing in the prison system, they came back out on the streets and they brought that back to the people.
And so, Clyde Belcourt, Eddie Benton-Benet, Russell Means, Dennis Banks. These are all co-founders of the American Indian Movement. And here in Minneapolis, police brutality against our people was at a high. And so when they came out of the prisons, they enacted AIM Patrol, which was protecting our people from the Minneapolis Police Department. And that hasn’t gotten too much better today, but that’s a different podcast.
Mansa Musa:
Right, right.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
But specifically in South Dakota, to kind of flip things towards Leonard Peltier, Wounded Knee, the occupation of Wounded Knee happened in 1973. And so, that was led by the American Indian Movement in an attempt to bring attention and awareness to protect the traditional people of the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation that were being attacked, that were being assaulted, that were being murdered by the FBI and non-traditional natives and a corrupt tribal council that had been effectively bought out by the FBI.
So, the occupation of Wounded Knee began a period of time known as the Reign of Terror. So in 1973, it was a three-year period of time known as the Reign of Terror that was led by corrupt tribal chairman, Dick Wilson, the Goon Squad, which is the guardians of the Oglala Nation, and the FBI. And so, what you had during this three-year period of time was intensive local surveillance, repeated arrests, harassments, 64 local murders of natives there on the reservation, and over 350 serious assaults during that time. So you have to understand that context, that atmosphere of violence at that time.
Mansa Musa:
That’s right.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
That the traditional people were experiencing. And so, what happened was they called AIM. They called AIM here in Minneapolis, and they asked for help. They asked for protection. And so, responding to that call were warriors that went there to the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation to protect their traditional people, so that they wouldn’t be murdered, so they wouldn’t be assaulted.
And so, one of those individuals that responded to that call was Leonard Peltier, that went there to the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation to protect the people. And ultimately, almost three years later, after the occupation of Wounded Knee, we have what’s known as the Incident, the shootout at the Jumping Bull Camp, which happened in June of 1975.
And so in June of 1975, there was a camp set up of AIM members and traditional people, mostly women and children at the Jumping Bull Residence on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, and some of the AIM members who were there setting up camp as well. And on June 26th, two unmarked cars, which were later found to be two FBI agents in civilian clothes, but two unmarked cars followed a van into the complex, and what ensued afterwards was a shootout. And you have to remember the violence that was happening there on the reservation.
Mansa Musa:
Right, right. [inaudible 00:11:58]
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
Yep. So a shootout happened, and at the end of that shootout, both agents, later to find out agents, were dead. And one Native American man, Joe Stuntz, whose death has never been investigated, and no one has ever been charged with his murder. But two FBI agents, Ronald Williams and Jack Coler, were both dead at the end of the shootout.
What ensued after that was a manhunt to seek justice for these two FBI agents that have been shot, and for the FBI to make an example out of native people, saying that if you resist, if you stand up, if you don’t go along with this strong arm of the United States government, if you stand on your traditional values and your traditional ways, this is what will happen to you.
Mansa Musa:
Right. And Rachel, we recognize that the Reign of Terror, but right there, they had the lackeys that was from the Bureau of Prison, the lackeys that were responsible for suppressing anybody on the reservation, anybody, any indigenous person, to suppress or repress their, any desire they had to have any type of self-determination. That they was primarily there, when they was trying to get him out, when they was trying to get the Bureau of Indian Affairs, the representative is trying to get him out. This whole thing, FBI, the military came to prop him up, or to solidify their reign, in terms of terrorizing people. But talk about how they wind up identifying Leonard Peltier as being involved in these agents being killed.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
So what ended up happening, so these two agents were originally going in, apparently, to serve a warrant for a pair of stolen cowboy boots.
Mansa Musa:
Two agents for a pair of cowboy boots?
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
Yeah, two FBI agents.
Mansa Musa:
Two FBI agents. Right. Okay.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
For a pair of stolen cowboy boots. They were serving a warrant for a man named Jimmy Eagle, and they were following a van in that reportedly had been known to be Jimmy Eagle’s van.
But what ended up happening was, there were arrests made at the end. And so there were three arrests made. There were Bob Robideau, Dino Butler, and Leonard Peltier. But Leonard Peltier was not arrested until later. First it was Bob Robideau and Dino Butler were both arrested, and they were tried in Cedar Rapids, and they were both found not guilty and acquitted on the grounds of self-defense. And then later, Leonard Peltier was arrested in Canada.
But the way that Leonard Peltier was linked to this case is that, on the Kansas Turnpike outside of Wichita, in Wichita Kansas, there was a van that exploded on the turnpike, and magically in this van that exploded… This is a separate date later on, there was an AR-15 found in the van, there was Agent Coler’s .308 rifle found in the van, and some homemade explosives.
And from this van that magically appeared in Wichita, Kansas on the turnpike, they determined that the AR, that specific AR-15 was Leonard Peltier’s AR-15, and that AR-15 was the one used to kill the agents, even though there were multiple AR-15 there at the shootout that day, and to say whose was whose…
Mansa Musa:
Right. Exactly.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
And so…
Mansa Musa:
Go ahead. Go ahead.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
Part of the belief that Leonard Peltier was specifically targeted was because of his leadership in the movement, in the American Indian Movement. Because during that time, even outside of Pine Ridge, outside of Wounded Knee, when you look at all of these strategic calls to justice that the movement was doing at the time. You mentioned them, the BIA takeover, the takeover of Alcatraz, standing up against the system. There was a nationwide manhunt for leaders in the American Indian Movement and heavy, heavy COINTELPRO happening in the movement too, to cause division. And so anytime there was an opportunity to place any of the leadership in a situation that could be used against them, it would be used. And so, in this instance, that was the case for Leonard.
Mansa Musa:
And I wanted to bring that point home about COINTELPRO, this is just my philosophy, right? If COINTELPRO is involved in your case, then you ain’t get a fair trial, because their whole design is, this is what their design is, to manufacture evidence, to coerce witnesses, to outright lie, to isolate the individuals, to attack their support base, and at the end, to get a conviction, which is not going to be hard to get under those circumstances. Because like in Peltier’s case, they claim that someone that was supposed to have knowledge of the incident was around when it happened. Later we can say, well, they was coerced. And then when we can say they was coerced, the state and the system say, oh, well, they suffer from some type of mental illness.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
You’re speaking about Myrtle Bear.
Mansa Musa:
If your word can’t be taken on your recantation, how can your… Because of your mental state, if I recant, you’re saying I can’t be trustworthy on my recant because of my mental health, but yet my initial statement has validity? That in and of itself is suspect. But talk about why you think, and you hit on a little bit, why you think they’re so adamant about holding Leonard Peltier, even in the face of overwhelming evidence and information that he was set up by the FBI because of his political involvement with AIM.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
I wanted to touch a little bit on what you just said too, because Myrtle Poor Bear signed, there was two affidavits that were based off of Myrtle Poor Bear’s testimony that was used to extradite Peltier from Canada to begin with. So he should have never even left Canada after he was arrested, to even be brought to the United States to have a trial. He should have stayed in Canada, because the affidavits were based off, of course, testimonies.
But in the big picture of what you’re speaking on, because our people, as indigenous people of Turtle Island, let’s just go ahead and throw South America into indigenous people of North and South America. We have been resisting and fighting colonization and the colonial governments of the United States and Canada and South America for over 530 years, since they first stepped foot here on these lands. And in that genocidal war that we have been in for over 530 years, their genocidal tactics have only shifted faces. Hundreds of years ago… Well, actually less than a hundred years ago, in some instances, they could just outright massacre our people.
And today, because of political environment, they can’t just outright massacre our people, but they can massacre us in other ways. They can massacre us through the justice system. They can massacre our people by not fighting the drugs and alcohol that are plaguing our communities. They can massacre our people by making sure that we don’t have access to healthcare or to education.
There’s different tactics that genocide follows over years. And Leonard Peltier is a piece of that. They’re saying, if you resist our colonial government systems, if you resist colonizing your traditional ways, and you want to stay traditional, and you want to continue to fight the system, this is what will happen to you. And it doesn’t matter if you did it or if you didn’t do it, we’re going to make it look like you did it.
Mansa Musa:
Right. And that’s where I wanted really to emphasize the point, because I said earlier, reparations, if you were saying that you was interned as a Japanese during World War II and you want to be compensated for that, that’s a behavior and an act that was inflicted on you as a citizen of this country. That was an act that was inflicted on you when you was brought to this country as a slave.
But the issue, and I really want to emphasize this issue for our audience, the issue of indigenous people is, this is our land. You on our property. You signed treaties to say that we have the right to sovereignty, to autonomy. And when we seek to exercise that, because now you find out that where we are at is on mineral-rich soil, or where we are at is more important for corporate America or capitalism and imperialism. Now you going to say that, well, we don’t want to give you independence. We want to acclimate you and become an American, and through that process, ignore your rights to have your own autonomy.
And this is why I think that I was asking about why Peltier, because it stands to reason, to be held that long under the most dubious circumstance. Even like Geronimo Pratt. It was obvious he was innocent. It was obvious that they spent all that time to hold onto that fabrication. But at some point, it unraveled. But with Peltier’s case, even in the face of the evidence saying that he’s innocent, even in the face of the evidence saying that he’s being held captive because of his stance on his right to be treated, have a right to self-determination, that that right there seemed like to be, like for the United States of America, a line in the sand. It ain’t even asking him, like to renounce status. They saying, we just going to let you die a dead of a thousand cuts. Do you get that same impression?
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
Yeah, no, I do. I was just sitting here listening to what you were saying, and it made me think about just how unfair his trial was. I don’t think we’ve really touched on his trial.
Mansa Musa:
Come on, talk about it.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
Because Bob Robideau and Dino Butler were both tried in Cedar Rapids, right? So we touched on that Leonard was extradited from Canada. So he had a separate trial in a separate location. He was brought to Fargo, North Dakota, so he was not tried in the same location as Bob Robideau and Dino Butler, where they were found not guilty on self-defense.
So he was in Fargo, North Dakota. He was with a different judge. All of the evidence and testimonies from Dino and Bob’s trial were not allowed to be in Leonard’s trial. It was found inadmissible. There were coerced testimonies. There was evidence tampering, with the whole AR-Fifteen and the van that exploded in Wichita, Kansas. At the end of his trial, the jury only deliberated for six hours, and at the end of his trial, he was found guilty and sentenced to two consecutive life sentences. And so, what he was found guilty of was murder at that time.
Later on… Later, we’re talking decades later, in the year 2000, with the Freedom of Information Act, a lot of information came out about the injustices in his trial. It was proven. And so, through that, his sentencing or his charges actually changed to… They changed it. They changed it to aiding and abetting the murder of Ronald Williams and Jack Coler. But that’s an interesting point in itself, because Bob Robideau and Dino Butler were both acquitted and found not guilty. So who is he aiding and abetting? Himself? Can you aid and abet yourself?
Mansa Musa:
Yeah, aid and abetting. I’m aiding and abetting you in self-defense. You are defending yourself, so I’m aiding and abetting, I’m helping you defend yourself. I’m helping you defend yourself. I’m not doing nothing to the person that’s trying to do something to you. I’m aiding and abetting you in defending. That’s the illogic of this whole thing.
But talk about where we at right now in terms of, because I told you earlier when we came on, how important it is for Real News and Rattling the Bar, how important it is for us to be able to get this information out there and beat this drum constantly about Leonard Peltier there. We don’t want to be in a position where we’re eulogizing our freedom fighters, we’re eulogizing our comrades, because now we holding them up in high esteem because of what they stood for. We want to be able to say that we fought the fight to the end, and no matter what, that’s our position. He’s innocent. He should be let home. So talk about where we at right now with his case and if you have knowledge of it.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
Yeah, I actually, I just talked to Kevin Sharp yesterday. So Kevin Sharp is Leonard Peltier’s lawyer that’s in charge of overseeing his parole hearing that’s coming up, passionate release and clemency petitions. So those are the three paths that Leonard Peltier currently has to being released. And so, I can kind of touch a little bit on each one of those.
Peltier first came eligible for parole in 1993, and so he’s eligible, but on all of those hearings, he was denied parole, obviously. But he is eligible for parole now again this year. So there is that avenue. There is the compassionate release avenue, which there has been three compassionate release petitions filed for Leonard Peltier over the years. There’s a fourth currently being pushed through the system. And then the third opportunity for freedom, it would be clemency through the Biden administration. So those are the three possibilities right now.
And then, in reality, we have to be very real about the situation. Leonard Peltier is 79 years old. He’s going to be 80 years old in September. He has type two diabetes. He has an abdominal aortic aneurysm that is fatal if it ruptures. He’s lost 80% of vision in one of his eyes from a stroke. And what Kevin was telling me yesterday is that he has lost most of his vision now, at this point, and that’s a mixture between cataracts, glaucoma, and his diabetes affecting his eyesight. So if one of these three avenues, the clemency, the parole or the compassionate release, don’t happen, and they don’t happen soon, we will be in a situation where it’s too late and Leonard Peltier will have died in prison.
And in recent years, there has been a really strong push for Peltier. In 2022, myself, I led, along with other members in the American Indian Movement, we led a walk, where we walked from Minneapolis to Washington D.C. It took two and a half months. It was 1,103 miles, and we had rallies along the way. We had rallies in Madison and Chicago and Cleveland, Toledo, Pittsburgh. And we had a rally in D.C. where we met with senators and representatives there to advocate for the release of Peltier.
Just this previous year, there was a caravan from South Dakota to Washington D.C., where it ended in a large rally in front of the White House, where several arrests were made. Several of our people were arrested there, protesting in front of the White House. And we have a lot of support through the National Congress of American Indians, through the Senate, through the House of Reps for clemency, for compassionate release for Leonard.
And so, all of this energy and culmination of history and sacrifice of people and work of people over the decades for Peltier is really coming to this head point now, that if something doesn’t happen now, it won’t happen. And there’s, in several speeches and several times during the walks, during the caravans, during the meetings with representatives, we have made it very clear that they don’t want Leonard Peltier to die in prison. If they want to keep relations with indigenous people and native people in our communities somewhat positive, then they need to let Leonard Peltier go.
Mansa Musa:
Right. And as we close out, tell us about your organization, how we can get in touch with you, and how people can stay abreast of what’s going on now with your organization, with upcoming events around Leonard Peltier.
Rachel Dionne Thunder:
I would say that there are two organizations to follow. One would be our organization, the Indigenous Protector Movement, and we are on all social media handles, and NDN Collective, and that’s the letters N, D and N Collective. They’re based out of South Dakota. They work a lot with Kevin Sharp, working towards the freedom of Leonard Peltier. And so, both of our organizations are heavily involved. We’ll share updates.
And I would say that the biggest ask that anybody could do would be to call your senator, call your local representative, and say that you support the release of Leonard Peltier and that you want their elected official to do the same. Because a lot of this is a political game at this point.
And I’ll just kind of wrap up by saying that, through these stories that I’ve heard growing up of Leonard, of carrying on this fight for Leonard in my life and seeing it come to this point, that by holding Leonard, they’re holding a piece of all of us as indigenous people. That until Leonard is free, none of us are free. And if they can do it to him, they can do it to any of us. And I don’t mean only native people, anybody that resists the long hand of the United States government.
Mansa Musa:
Right. Turtle Island. And thank you, Rachel, for coming in and rattling the bars. You definitely rattle the bars in the spirit of indigenous people, like you say, warriors fighting for the rights that they not asking for. I’m not asking you to acknowledge my rights. I’m asking you to get out of my way while I exercise my right to my freedoms. I’m not asking you to give me nothing. I’m asking you to get out of my way as I go forward and live my life as my ancestors lived their lives. I’m not asking you for no monies. I’m asking you to get off my land so I can cultivate the land and produce the necessary minerals and resources to feed my people and strengthen my people.
And I agree with you. Peltier is all of us, or Angela Davis say, they come for you in the morning, they’ll come for us at night. Well, as long as Peltier remains captive, all of us is captive, and we need to really step forward and let people know. And we encouraging our listeners and our viewers to really look at what Rachel Thunder is saying about indigenous people, and really listen to what she’s saying about Leonard Peltier and the fact that according to this country, you have a freedom of speech and a freedom of thought, but it’s only if you not indigenous or a person of color, do these rights get acknowledged. Thank you for coming in, Rachel. Thank you for rattling the bars with me today.
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<title>From layoffs to lawsuits, billionaires are striking back to crush worker power</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/from-layoffs-to-lawsuits-billionaires-are-striking-back-to-crush-worker-power</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Hedges]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2024 16:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[The Chris Hedges Report]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[labor]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=311530</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Jeff Bezos looks on from the sidlines before kickoff between the Kansas City Chiefs and Los Angeles Chargers at GEHA Field at Arrowhead Stadium on September 15, 2022 in Kansas City, Missouri. Photo by Cooper Neill/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>A legal challenge to abolish the NLRB is just the most obvious attempt by the ruling class to squash the rise of working class militancy in the US.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Jeff Bezos looks on from the sidlines before kickoff between the Kansas City Chiefs and Los Angeles Chargers at GEHA Field at Arrowhead Stadium on September 15, 2022 in Kansas City, Missouri. Photo by Cooper Neill/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1243266925-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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The resurgence of the labor movement in 2023 galvanized and emboldened unions around the country—and sent capitalists scrambling to squash the nascent militancy of their workers. Among the attempts of the billionaire class to retaliate is a major legal challenge to the National Labor Relations Board, the government body that has protected the right of workers to collective bargaining for 89 years. This latest attack on the rights of workers is the culmination of a decades-long assault on the working class in the US, which has been caught between an economic system hemorrhaging jobs and a political system that refuses to address their problems. <a href="https://twitter.com/les_leopold?" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Les Leopold</a>, executive director of the Labor Institute and author of <a href="https://www.chelseagreen.com/product/wall-streets-war-on-workers/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Wall Street’s War on Workers</a>, joins The Chris Hedges Report to discuss the full-spectrum assault on worker power taking place before our eyes.
<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
Studio Production: David Hebden Post-Production: Adam Coley
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Chris Hedges:
The country’s major corporations seeking to crush union organization have filed legal papers to shut down the National Labor Relations Board, or NLRB, the federal agency that enforces labor rights and oversee unionization efforts. Elon Musk, SpaceX, as well as Amazon Starbucks, and Trader Joe’s have targeted the NLRB after it accused Amazon Starbucks and Trader Joe’s of breaking the law and battling against unionization, as well as accusing SpaceX of illegally firing eight workers for criticizing Elon Musk. The attempt to get the federal courts to overturn the 89-year-old National Labor Relations Act, which has governed labor relations since Franklin Roosevelt was president, is one more assault in the war against workers by corporations and Wall Street. Laws and regulations put in place by the New Deal have been steadily dismantled. The NLRB, for example, has already been rendered largely toothless.
It is unable to fine corporations for breaking the law, including when corporations fire workers who are attempting to organize. If NLRB judges are declared unconstitutional, the goal of the legal challenge, it would halt judges from hearing hundreds of cases brought against corporations for violating labor laws. This latest attack on workers is part of a broader decades long assault that includes the mass layoffs of workers and costly stock buybacks to enrich shareholders at workers’ expense. This assault has not only caused financial distress among the working-class, it has not only seen wealth funneled upwards into the hands of the billionaire class, but has had negative repercussions for our society and our democracy. The Democratic Party’s abject betrayal of the working-class, especially in rural America, lies at the heart of the rise of a demagogue like Donald Trump. Rather than halt this corporate pillage, the victims of this assault are demonized as ignorant, racist bigots.
Those Hillary Clinton called deplorables. They are written off as a lost cause politically. The statistics, however, point to a strong correlation between the decline of the Democratic Party and mass layoffs along with onerous trade agreements that ship manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China. The claim by many Democrats and pundits such as New York Times columnist Paul Krugman, that there is a massive reactionary working-class populist base in America is a fiction. Even the January 6th, 2021 storming of the US Capitol, it turns out, was not in fact a white working-class riot, but it is easier to dismiss the white working-class rather than ameliorate their very real suffering. This failure to act is ominous. As labor journalist Hamilton Nolan writes, “The people who fancy themselves as the captains of the ship are actually the wood eating shipworms who are consuming the thing from the inside until it sinks.”
Joining me to discuss the war on workers and how it imperils what is left of our anemic democracy is Les Leopold, who co-founded the Labor Institute and is the author of Wall Street’s War on Workers: How Mass Layoffs and Greed Are Destroying the working-class And What to Do About It. So your book, I think, makes a very convincing case that the defection of the white working-class in particular, which is largely often rural, is caused by this economic distress, and you have lots of data and statistics and charts to back it up, but I want to begin, as you do in the introduction, you lay out the cost, the emotional cost to workers who lose their jobs. You write that it’s the seventh considered the seventh most stressful life event ranked more stressful than divorce, than recovery from the psychological trauma of job loss takes two years on average. You talk about developing new health conditions rise by 83%. And I’ve seen that among my own family in Maine. Let’s talk about just to begin what that job instability does to one’s physical and emotional state.
Les Leopold:
Well, I saw this in my own family. My father was a factory worker. When he was laid off through a mass layoff, it was traumatic. He felt terrible about himself. We were fortunate that my mother had a full-time job, and so we didn’t completely crash economically, but he just felt pretty worthless. Another fortunate thing was this happened to be during the recessions of the early 1960s and when the economy picked up, he got a job and he basically was able to hold it for the rest of his career. But today what’s happened is then it was during recessions. That’s when you’d see mass layoffs. Corporate CEOs were embarrassed to do mass layoffs. They thought it was a sign of their own failure. Now it’s a sign of financial prowess. Good times, bad times, it doesn’t matter. So you’re seeing people go from one mass layoff to the next mass layoff and it’s totally debilitating. You feel terrible about yourself. It’s hard.
It becomes increasingly hard to make ends meet and you feel let down by your society. Everybody talks about the economy, the economy, the economy. What does it mean if a democratic country and its economy can’t produce a modicum of stable employment? You are in trouble and the people start losing faith in the system all around them. It’s no accident that the opioid epidemic grew up in this environment. It’s no accident that people started to abandon the Democratic Party. They just feel let down and they don’t know where to turn and frankly, where do we tell them to turn? I see a few politicians who are brave enough to take on Wall Street and they’re doing well like Sharon Brown in Ohio, but most people just duck. They want to talk about something else where they talk about jobs in the future. That’s the other thing I’m finding difficult to handle. I’m all for the infrastructure bills, I’m all for the CHIPS programs, all these things that create jobs in the future, but what is it going to do for the person that’s laid off?
Now, we had a plant go down in Olean, New York that’s on the southern tier right above Pennsylvania, very rural, once very industrial. So a plant goes down there and in a few years, a battery factory is opened up in Buffalo three, four, five hours away. It doesn’t do anything for you. You’re being told, “Move. Take your family your life and just rip it up and move.” Anyway, this kind of pressure has been studiously ignored. So that was one finding of our book is, as you’ve mentioned, explained it very well. We found there was a high causal correlation between the rise of mass layoffs in especially in the rural counties in the blue wall states, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, and the decline in the Democratic Party going back to 1996, not just during the Trump election. And the second thing we found that you mentioned was that the white working, especially in these rural areas, are not becoming more illiberal. They are not a basket full of deplorables.
Yes, there’s some people like that. We estimate nationally, maybe max 3% would fit into Hillary’s basket full of deplorables. Let me just give you the one statistic that a couple that just blew my mind. When asked 20 years ago whether gay or lesbian couples should be able to adopt children, the white working-class, on average, only about 38% said they approved of that. Now it’s 76%. The other one’s probably for religious reasons or something. Another one, how about legalization. This is an important one, because this is the one you would think would be completely hated by the people left behind. “Do you approve of granting citizenship to illegal immigrants who’ve been here three years, no felonies and have been paying their taxes?” Well, 15 years ago, only about 32% agreed with that statement. Now it’s 61.6%. Almost two thirds now say, “Yes, we believe that there should be a path to legalization for undocumented workers.” To me, that was phenomenal when I saw that.
So President Obama said… There’s a certain mental gymnastics that goes on here to rationalize this away. He said, “Yeah, we know that they’ve been left behind economically A, there’s nothing we can do about it because it’s the forces of trade. It’s the globalization and technology, and besides that, it’s their fault that they’re clinging to guns and religion. We’re not making them do that.” Well, it turns out we saw no evidence that people are getting more religious. We saw no evidence that they’re cling to their guns. They’re not more homophobic, they’re not more racist, they’re getting more liberal, but they’re angry. And as you said that very well, they’re disgusted that no one is reaching out for them to them, not just to pat them on the back or wear a hoodie and make them feel good like we look the same. No people that will actually intervene and stop mass layoffs. That’s what has to happen. Direct intervention to stop mass layoffs and the tricks that Wall Street plays to promote them. Leverage buyout, stock buybacks.
Chris Hedges:
We should just be clear, as you made clear in your book, that the financial structures have changed with the rise of corporate raters, we now politely call them private equity firms, and I did a good interview with the Pulitzer Prize-winning financial or business reporter, Gretchen Morgenson on her book on private equity.
Les Leopold:
[inaudible 00:11:56].
Chris Hedges:
So the model changes where a private equity firm comes in and harvest a corporation to sell off its assets, in essence to destroy it. They’re not trying to sustain it, and that has fueled, we’ll go back to certainly Clinton would go back to Reagan probably, but that has over the last few decades, seen wave after wave of mass layoffs. I wrote a book called America: The Farewell Tour, and wrote a chapter out of Anderson, Indiana. That’s where GM used to make its cars, good union paying jobs, a middle class city. They literally packed up the equipment and moved it to Monterey, Mexico where they pay workers $3 an hour, and the city has fallen into a death spiral with all of the attendant problems that you point out, opioid addictions, suicide’s very high.
And yet the Democratic Party just utterly fails to address this issue. Right? Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer and Bernie Sanders had golden opportunities during the pandemic to stop two significant mass layoffs, one in Morgantown, West Virginia, the other, as you mentioned in Olean, New York, the failure to act contrast sharply with Trump’s strikingly symbolic and partially successful effort to prevent the carrier global corporation from moving jobs from its Indiana facility to Mexico in 2017. And I think this is an issue that many people who dislike Trump don’t pick up on, although of course he’s a con artist, but he does speak to this pain directly in a way that no other democratic politician does with maybe the exception of Bernie Sanders, and Sherrod Brown, of course.
Les Leopold:
Well, look, that’s an excellent point. First of all, it was a very self-conscious effort on the part of the Democrats and the Republicans from Reagan on to rip up the new deal controls, get rid of the guard rails, just like you talked about the NLRB, that’s another one they’re now trying to get rid of, but basically these corporate raiders, the harvesters that just wasn’t going on before deregulation, that was frowned upon, that was easily stopped. SEC would walk in and say, no, you can’t do that.
Chris Hedges:
Well, I just want to interrupt you. As you point out in your book, stock buybacks were used to be illegal.
Les Leopold:
Yeah, well, it was basically so controlled that no more than 2% of corporate profits could go to stock buybacks. Now we’re talking close to 70% of all corporate profits in society, and some companies, not just a handful, but hundreds and hundreds spend more than a hundred percent of their profits on stock buybacks. They’re basically taking their money and returning it… Returning it. Giving it to the largest stock owners. They’re not investors. These are stock sellers and these are the hedge funds and other large institutions that swoop in demand the stock buyback.
Actually, that’s why Carrier was moving to Mexico, not to keep up with the competition, but its parent company and I, technologies had a bunch of hedge funds took a position in that company and said, “We want a $6 billion stock buyback.” So they figured, “Oh, we can save $60 million by moving our most profitable division to Mexico,” and Trump did intervene. The story of, it’s so painful to bring this one up, but I connected with the president of the union at the Morgantown West Virginia facility. It’s a mile in pharmaceuticals, and there’s a whole CD history there with Joe Manchin’s daughter, and she got like a hundred million.
Chris Hedges:
Right, they produce EpiPens for $10 and then sell them for hundreds of dollars,
Les Leopold:
But there’s a whole bunch of… Let’s put that aside. She was gone and the new owner wants to move it to India in the middle of the pandemic, and they’re making generic products. So this local union was steel workers, former oil, chemical atomic workers, progressive organized, and they got Bernie Sanders crew, our revolution to support them. They appealed to Biden administration, they appealed to Bernie, they appealed to Manchin. They even suggested to the state government, why don’t you buy the company and then we’ll produce generic products for the VA and for Medicaid? Pretty smart, right? Nobody did anything. So 1500 of the probably the best blue collar jobs other than coal in all of West Virginia 1500 jobs, average pay, 70 grand goes under, and this was when they could have used the Defense Production Act. They did that with the baby formula just before this period, but they didn’t want to do it, and I can’t figure out why.
This was such an easy way to bring national attention to, “We’re not going to put up with mass layoffs.” It’s funny, the president of United Technologies had a great line when they asked him, “Well, why did you give into Trump?” He goes, “I was born at night, but I wasn’t born last night.” We get 10% of our revenue comes from federal contracts, right? So there’s 760 billion a year in federal contracts. What if you told them, “Guess what, from here on in, no more mass layoffs, no more stock buybacks.” You don’t want to do that. Don’t take the contract. We’ll find somebody else set up. You can use the bully pulpit. You can use the federal contract. Now, people will say, whoa, wait a second. You’re messing with capitalism. It’s not going to work. Well, you know what? These large corporations are enormously flexible. The other thing we found, this is another sad one, that Olean plant in upstate New York was Siemens Energy.
90,000 employees was spun off, but still connected to Siemens, which has 400,000 employees, a German based company. Well, 1700 US workers lost their jobs when they stopped making a certain kind of compressor for oil rigs or fracking or something. In Germany, 3000 were going to lose their jobs, but because they have codetermination there, half the board members are workers, including high-level union officials. They did all these investigations, they did all these pressure tactics, and the company agreed to no compulsory layoffs, plus, this is the part that was really mind-blowing. In other words, you have to buy the worker out before they leave, otherwise you can’t get rid of them. The six facilities that were making the product that they were shutting down, they agreed to put something else in the plant and keep the six plants open, so that could be part of your federal contract.
No compulsory layoffs, no plant shutdowns, no stock buybacks. But you have to interfere with capitalists and Wall Street prerogatives. That takes guts. And I keep asking myself, “Don’t they see that it really works for Sherrod Brown in Ohio?” Bernie in Vermont and Elizabeth Warren in Massachusetts, those are democratic states, but Ohio Brown outpaced Trump by 15% in 2020. So people respond to those who are really trying to protect their jobs, and it just has to happen. My big fear is that the right is going to wake up. They’re going to see what Trump did. The polling, by the way, after that show, that was enormously popular with the American public and with Democrats for that matter, they’re going to wake up and say, “You know what? Instead of going after these companies because they’re too woke or for diversity, let’s go after them because of their layoffs.”
Chris Hedges:
Now, you make an interesting point that… Reminds me of Gaza, actually. So we have no leverage over Israel unless we stop the arms shipments, but it isn’t going to happen so we have no leverage. So the Democrats have no leverage over these large corporations because they won’t halt these massive government contracts. And you have, I forget the name of the CEO, but when Biden does his infrastructure bill, signs it. He’s standing next to, what’s the name of the woman, who just eradicated all sorts of jobs
Les Leopold:
[inaudible 00:21:17] right in front of him.
Chris Hedges:
Yeah.
Les Leopold:
I’m afraid that’s what’s happened is Schumer’s famous line from 2016 has become the defacto policy. He said, “For every blue collar worker we lose in western Pennsylvania, we’re picking up two Republicans in the suburbs,” and that goes for Michigan, Ohio, and Wisconsin as well. So that’s essentially telling people, you’re writing them off. That there are more suburbanites than there are rural working-class people or working-class people in general. By the way, it’s not just rural. You’re talking about Staten Island and Queens and other places in heavily urban areas. We found no difference, by the way, in people’s attitudes, whether they were urban, rural, or suburban amongst the white working-class. People are pissed.
They don’t want to be buffeted from their job. I can’t remember who just wrote this, a recent study, and they were asking people what they felt about the economy and almost to the person, they said, “Greed, it’s rigged.” It’s rigged. People feel it’s rigged against them, and that the Wall Streeters are walking off with the money and the CEOs and that the politicians are too eager to get campaign donations and frankly also have their eye on, well maybe get a good Wall Street job after they leave office. Too many people are geared up that way, and it’s now permeated into the political culture. Everybody feels it, unless they’re really benefiting from it, and that’s a very small number of people.
Chris Hedges:
Well, they feel it because it’s true. It’s not a feeling, it’s a fact. And so not only do these corporations lavishly fund politicians like Barack Obama or the Clintons, but they take care of them as soon as they leave office. There’s payback. Speaking fees, the hundreds of thousands of dollars, insane donations to their foundations, which allow them to spend their life flying around in Learjets, et cetera. It’s just legalized bribery.
Les Leopold:
Well, again, I keep asking myself, but why do they want to lose? Why would so many Democrats in swing states with large rural populations, working-class populations, why do they want to lose? Sherrod Brown put out three essays with the title Wall Street’s War on Workers. He did this before the 20 election he did in ’17, ’18, ’19. Why don’t people see that they could actually do something to help working people by stopping these mass layoffs opposing Wall Street using that framework? That’s what I’m saying.
What blew my mind is I believe that that framework was incredibly powerful. It showed up in all the statistical work that we did to sort of prove that it was powerful. Then you get a guy like Mike Luxe, the Democratic pollster. He’s no radical. He did this report just recently a year ago called Factory Towns, and his conclusion is this. I’m close to the exact phrase. He says, “The working-class wouldn’t care that much about the woke thing if the Democrats gave a about the economy.” Substitute the word mass layoffs for economy, and I think he’s exactly right. And now we discover that Sheriff Brown’s onto this framework as well. What’s holding everybody back?
Chris Hedges:
Well, plus they’d win by a landslide if they actually push through FDR type new Deal reforms. But the Democratic leadership as it exists, 80-year-old Biden, Nancy Pelosi, they wouldn’t exist because they’re creatures of Wall Street and their power comes from one that they’re funded by corporations, but even more importantly, they control the flow of campaign or corporate donations to anointed candidates. So I think they’d rather go down in their privileged first class cabins then become politically irrelevant because if there was a pivot where they actually challenged corporate power, the democratic leadership as it exists presently would be eradicated. In a fair election, not one saturated with corporate money, Bernie Sanders would’ve beat Hillary Clinton and probably would’ve beaten Donald Trump.
Les Leopold:
I agree. I agree. The story in the book that we stumbled on there, really saddening, is the story of Mingo County, West Virginia. Can I dive into that one a little bit?
Chris Hedges:
Yeah, sure. This is the opioid capital.
Les Leopold:
Yeah. So Bill Clinton wins Mingo County, a small county in West Virginia. At the time that Bill Clinton won, it had 3,300 coal jobs, he got 69.7% of the vote, a landslide. Every four years thereafter, the Democrat got less and less and less and less, and Biden ends up with 13.9%. that’s a pathetic amount. You’d get more than that by far. If you were a writing candidate in that area, I could run your campaign and get you more than 13.9%. So this county has an incredible history. This is where Mother Jones came and spoke during the Cold Wars of the early 20th century. There was basically a war going on there between the United Mine Workers who was trying to organize and the thugs that were hired by the coal industry. In fact, state and federal troops had to come in there to basically put it under martial law.
Chris Hedges:
Well, there was an armed uprising in Player Mountain for three days. They fought them off.
Les Leopold:
Yep. And finally with the New Deal in Roosevelt, unions were recognized. The United Mine Workers started to prosper. Workers started doing better, and they rewarded the Democrats with their votes. All right, so what was going on between 1996 and 2020 in a county that has 23,000 people in it? The coal mining jobs went from 3,300 to 300, so this was the perfect place for the Democrats to do a real workers work progress administration, go from town to town, ask people what they need, and then create public jobs to produce what they need. They’re going to say, we need better schools. Okay, build new schools. Our roads are falling apart, build new roads. We don’t have internet. Wire them up. We need better healthcare facilities, produce more healthcare facilities. The strip mining legacy has to be cleaned up. Bring conservation corps in, clean those places up, get the rivers below or polluted, fix them.
There were tens of thousands of jobs to be created in Appalachia in West Virginia and thousands that could have been created just in Mingo County, and the Democrats didn’t do anything nor did the Republicans, but we didn’t expect them to do anything, so they relied on where they rely on the private sector. What did the private sector do to enterprising? You can’t this up. A guy who just got out of prison being a pimp, set up a drugstore, got some doctor to fill out prescriptions so that he could put out a prescription per minute, and then a second drugstore competed with the first. That’s free enterprise, right? You come in and take advantage of the market. This little county became the pill Mill of America put out more. That one drugstore was the 22nd largest distributor of opioids in the whole country. You’re talking New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Houston, no, Mingo County, West Virginia in the top.
Number 22. You think these people are going to reward the Democrats for creating a huge handful of jobs in a drugstore. This is, if I were to try to write a spoof about how to destroy yourself politically, I couldn’t have made this up. And then on top of that, Wall Street came in and fed on the carcass of these coal mines that were going under and tried to rip the health benefits away from the coal mining retirees, and that was all legal. UMW Union fought them very hard, but a lot of coal miners lost their retirement healthcare benefits. And we have to stop that. Progressives have to stop… You can’t call yourself a progressive and not fight mass layoffs and not fight Wall Street. You just can’t. You can’t say, “Oh, this is all okay, and the system’s going to work itself out by itself.” It doesn’t. Left to itself, it flows to the bottom, not to the top.
It takes human will undo that regulation that allows those stock buybacks. Don’t let them put debt on a company when they do a leveraged buyout, a corporate rate. Don’t let them use borrowed money. They have to use their own money. They play a completely differently, and there wouldn’t be immediate mass layoffs. The other big fiction, then I’ll stop pontificating here, is that, “Okay, get an education, get a job in high-tech.” This is what we’ve told people to do. “Maybe you can’t do it, but your kids will do it and then things will be fine.” Have you have a bright new future stable employment? Well, last year, the high-tech industry did probably a hundred billion dollars in stock buybacks. How did they pay for it? They did 260,000 mass layoffs. 260,000 workers lost their jobs in the high-tech sector through mass layoffs another 50,000 so far this year. These are the jobs of the future.
Don’t get me going. Then people say, “Well, no, no, no, you can’t… It’s AI. It’s new technology that’s doing it.” Baloney. There’s no indication at all that any of these jobs are lost to AI. Oh, I take it back. Maybe the dismissal notices were sent to people through an AI type program, but that’s not why these jobs were lost. Stock buybacks are why these jobs were lost. The history of technology is that, yes, jobs change, but it’s over a much slower period of time. There’ve been dozens of studies done on technology that’s not the driver of mass layoffs and job insecurity now. By the way, I don’t think trade is either. I think it’s the deregulation of corporations. Of course, the corporate trade agreements, the kind of which you’re very familiar with that have taken place over the years. This all can be stopped. Human will created this, human agency created this, human agency can stop it, but we need a movement to deal with it, and that’s got to be built.
Chris Hedges:
So the Democrats and the Republicans in every election fight over this very narrow slice of the electorate that could have undecided voter, which we’re seeing again, and as you point out in the book, they write off a whole segments of the electorate, and I am just going to read from the book. “The Democrats currently are leaving behind somewhere between 20 and 50% of white working-class non Democrats who are moderately to very liberal on the most divisive social issues. This translates into approximately 10 to 25 million socially liberal white working-class people who are non-Democrats. Given how close elections currently are, neglecting these workers should be considered political malpractice.”
Les Leopold:
I’m really glad that you spotted that one. That was one of the most amazing findings we came up with because we broke the electorate. There’s data long-term, not like polling before an election, long-term voter surveys where you could break the electorate into seven different political classifications. So we put all the Republican leaning people who were working white working-class into one pool, and then we ran all these questions through that pool, and it was stunning. It was stunning how many of these rabid Republicans and heavily leaning Republicans were, in fact socially liberal. But the thing that triggered them, the one problem with these long-term surveys is they’re not put together by people like you or Gretchen. So they don’t have a lot of job oriented questions, but they have a couple that hint that way. One was on environmental job loss and the other one was on trade job loss, and the responses to those questions went through the roof.
People were really angry and worried about those kinds of issues. So that again, I think goes back to the fundamental point. There are millions of socially liberal, so-called Republican conservatives who are freaked out about job loss and they want some kind of job stability and they don’t. Here’s the other little thing we noticed. We do a lot of work with trade unions and a lot of workshops, and what I’ve noticed is that when people feel that the union can’t protect them and that the Democrats can’t protect them, they lean towards the Republicans figure, “Well, we might as well do deregulation or something because that’s the only group now that could help protect my job. Let’s help the companies.” Maybe they’ll protect their jobs. That’s what happens when you have only 6% of the private sector in trade unions. That’s what happens when the Democratic Party doesn’t fight against mass layoffs. People start leaning to the company for some sort of protection.
Chris Hedges:
And we have to talk about trade deals because it was Clinton that pushed through NAFTA. It was Hillary Clinton that was trying to push through the TPP. These trade deals essentially break down barriers so that sweatshops in China, Vietnam, Mexico can mass produce products and they can be brought back into the United States at virtually no cost. When they drive the new GM trucks up for Monterey, Mexico. They still sell at the same price, but instead of the money going to workers, it goes in the pockets of the CEOs and the upper echelon of these corporations. But these trade deals have been devastating to the working-class, and the working-class knows it.
Les Leopold:
Oh, absolutely. The idea of structuring a trade deal to enrich corporations is obviously why the corporations help write these trade deals, and it goes even more so for financial services, the Wall Street part of it, but we’re finding that behind a lot of these trade deals, the drive for profits to use them is not to fend off the competition, but actually to create more cashflow for the stock buybacks. I’d like to see somebody add a little clause to a trade deal that says, guess what? You can use this trade deal, but you can’t do any stock buybacks.
We’re not going to allow you to recycle money that you make back into stock buybacks. We’re not going to allow you to lay the other thing saying, guess what? No forced layoffs add. Add those two things to a trade deal the way you could to federal contracts, and you change the way trade happens globally. But yes, they’ve been remarkably devastating, but in more recent years, they’re often tied like with to the desire to get more cash flow for stock buybacks. So that little loophole that started in 1982, they’ve driven a truck through it, the same Mack truck that’s coming up from Mexico.
Chris Hedges:
I want to talk about the Republican Party. I thought this was a very important point. In your book, you talk about McCarthy’s as ruthless anti-communist campaign, a campaign that most liberals also supported Sidney Hook. I added that. That’s not you. In less feral in forms, the working-class masses did not create the federal loyalty oath instituted by President Truman’s Democratic administration, and those masses did not create the blacklist that harmed the careers of so many in government education in Hollywood for McCarthy as the most primarily an elite phenomenon, not a mass phenomenon. And you say the same is true today. Explain what you mean.
Les Leopold:
Yeah. I got turned onto this reading a book called The Intellectuals of McCarthy by Michael P. Rogan and the Pluralist, the Political Science and Sociology establishment of basically the ’50s and the ’60s. We’re trying to explain how did totalitarianism rise? Why do you have Mussolini and Stalin and Hitler and then McCarthy? These people have no trash, minorities, trash, all kinds of rights, civil rights of all kinds. Why do you have them? Well, the theory simply put was masses run wild that this happens because the masses run wild, and the proof of McCarthy’s masses run wild was Wisconsin was a populous state. It had a lot of, had a populous governor, Congressman had a socialist mayor in Milwaukee, and it grew out of the populous movement of the 1880s and 1890s and flowed into, and it still had remnants of that.
And McCarthy was popular in Wisconsin, and therefore the masses run wild, explains McCarthyism. Well, this guy Rogan did something which I tried to emulate in writing this book, which is let’s take a look at what actually happened in the voting patterns. And he looks at the old populous districts, and it turns out they voted against McCarthy. That’s not where he got his strength. The ideology didn’t come from the populace. The ideology came from the conservative Republican intellectuals. The base, the most fervent part of his base were the small towns, doctors, lawyers, real estate agents and such. And, he then kicks it up another level, he says the elites allowed him to do what he did in Washington, his hearings, his attacks, his ruining people’s careers.
As soon as he started to attack the army, Eisenhower for the first time turned on him, and in six months, McCarthy was gone. For example, had the Republicans turned on Trump, we wouldn’t be talking about him anymore, right? Anyway, we’ll get to that in a second. So his claim was, it’s an elite phenomenon. So we then started to look at, well, you mentioned January 6th. Well, let’s take a look at that. Well, there’s been some great work. On the surface, it looks like it’s a white working-class riot, and it would support this pluralistic argument that it’s the masses run wild. Well, it turns out that the University of Chicago has a project where they look at the demographic characteristics of those people who are arrested, and they’re disproportionately white collar and business owners.
Chris Hedges:
Let me just read the figures. I have them right in front of me. 93% were white, 54% were white collar or business owners, only 22% were blue collar, non-business owners. No college decree and 25% at a college degree.
Les Leopold:
It makes sense. What I see when I look at Trump, I see a basket full of lawyers, thousands of them.
Chris Hedges:
Well, they’re pretty deplorable.
Les Leopold:
Thousands of them. That’s the guts of his power structure. I don’t see a working-class person standing up anywhere front. Yeah, they put them in their audiences and stuff like that to make them look a certain way, and he gets a lot of rural support, but that’s not the guts of his movement. And so I think that there’s a strong parallel between him and McCarthy, and I think it’s the same thing if the elite opinion makers in his own party and let him run wild, which they clearly have done, you’re going to have him succeed.
Chris Hedges:
But they stoke it because their actual policies have no popular support. There’s a reason they stoke this stuff.
Les Leopold:
See, I think if we just dig down one more level, what is the motivation for each of these people? Well, I’m sure it’s slightly different, but one of the clear motivations is money and power, and riding Trump’s coattails. If you see a path to money and power, you’re going to do it, and if nothing’s blocking it, you’re going to keep doing it. And the policies that you support are money and power policies, policies that you think you’re going to get good donations, good jobs in the future, prominence, fame, power, and glory. There are a few, I’m sure, Republicans actually believe what they’re saying, but I have trouble. I think what they’re really saying is, “I want fame, power, and glory, and this is the way I’m going to get it.
Chris Hedges:
Well, as you point out in the book, however uneasy that relationship might be. Sometimes the business community in Nazi Germany had no problem working with the fascists, especially since after mayday, they shut down all the unions. Capitalism, and as you point out in China, can function quite well with totalitarianism. I just want to read this paragraph for Democrats in the media to blame The white working-class for this dereliction of duty by Republican elites is to make the same mistake the plural is made with McCarthyism. The white working-class does not have the franchise on authoritarianism, racism, sexism, xenophobia, homophobia, religious intolerance or violence. Authoritarianism can only irreparably damage society. If political leaders refuse to hold the authoritarians to account. Liberals too can become unwitting enablers by blaming the white working-class for the sins of these elites.
Les Leopold:
Good paragraph.
Chris Hedges:
Yeah. Well, you wrote it. It’s all right.
Les Leopold:
Yeah. Well, I stand by it.
Chris Hedges:
But you nailed it. That’s it. And that is the kind of the most crucial political problem of our time in that unless the Democratic Party is willing to accept responsibility, we’re finished. when Trump comes back into power and he may very well come back into power, it isn’t going to be like the last time and it’s going to become a banana republic.
Les Leopold:
Well, look, I came up through the 1960s, and let’s face it, there was a lot of chaos going on there, and there was a lot of struggle, but I never thought that the democratic system itself was going to break even with all the bombings and the assassinations. it was just like 1968. I never want to live through that again, and I was at the Democratic National Convention. I was in the South. I saw it firsthand, but I had faith in the underlying support that people had for democracy. I am worried now because after 40 years of job instability, you’ve now threatened the very essence of what people need to live to not spiral down. The death spiral you talked about for a community is also the death spiral for each person feels really letting their family down, letting themselves down.
40 years of this, and I think that this system is now threatened. I hate to pin all my hopes on the labor movement, but that’s where I am, and I think that Shawn Fain at the UAW is onto something. He’s the first labor leader in decades that speaks for the class as a whole. When he talks, when he got up and said, “Billionaires should not exist,” just like that. That’s a sign to me that he understands that a movement can be built. What I’d like to see him do is to create, in a sense, a nonpartisan political movement for like a dollar a month or something anybody can join, and a very simple platform. No more mass layoffs, no more stock buybacks, no more leveraged buyouts. Very simple.
I think millions of people would join and that would give him leads to organize. Look, I’m trying to get into the ear of his assistance and comrades, but something has to break where another movement gets built because there are not enough shared Browns or Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. They’re just not enough, and to get them to be enough, you need something to I think come up from below. And what I saw, I was impressed with what happened with the UAW, and it was also the communication. Workers of America are very, very good. By the way, they run courses for a thousand workers a year based on my runaway and equality book, and now based on this book as well. They really… Day-long courses, they spend like a million dollars a year educating their own members to run through these courses, that there’s some hope there. But we need a lot-
Chris Hedges:
Well, that’s what a lot of people forget. One of the fundamental roles of labor in society is education.
Les Leopold:
Exactly. That was a trusted source of information. It still is a trusted source, but with only 6% of the business sector and unions, we got problems. We’re better off in the public sector, but you need that private sector organized and where you started this conversation with the NRB laws, if that goes, you are not going to see hardly any more union organizing, and you’re into the modern form of feudalism. You’re back to the Mother Jones period where you can’t organize. It’s going to be against the law to organize, and we can’t head in that direction. The scary thing is you’ve got a guy like Jamie Demon from a CEO of JP Morgan Chase, supposedly liberal guy. He says, oh, we can work with Trump. He’s already said it.
Chris Hedges:
Lloyd Blankfein said, “If Bernie Sanders was the nominee, he’d work for Trump, one of a major Democratic Party donor.”
Les Leopold:
What’s interesting, the UAW strike was really popular. It’s been a long time since the strike was actually a majoritarian support for a strike, so there’s something out there where people, it’s that basic system, a little model I put forth before, if you’ve got all the power with corporations and the Democrats aren’t protecting you, then you got to have it at least a union. The Starbucks workers, we’re working with these Amazonian United workers right now providing education. They understand. They’re telling me I’m too conservative. I’m not attacking capitalism enough. He says, “Workers are totally comfortable attacking it because they’re living it every day.” They’re basically throw away people. They’re treated like you can just toss them away. Work them to death, and then get somebody else. We need some sort of an uprising that is structured. Not another [inaudible 00:51:44] Square, Arab Spring or We Are the 99%. We need it structured. You need an organization that actually has the infrastructure to hold us together-
Chris Hedges:
But we also need an organization that has the power to strike, because that’s the only weapon working-class people have to fight against their overlords. That’s it, the strike.
Les Leopold:
Yeah. If they take that away, you’re going to see violence.
Chris Hedges:
Well, that’s what we’re watching it right now with the NLRB. That’s what they’re doing.
Les Leopold:
Anyway.
Chris Hedges:
All right. On that hopeful note.
Les Leopold:
I’m going to be a little optimistic. For the listeners here, I’m trying to be optimistic. The book’s not as pessimistic as we are being right now.
Chris Hedges:
Oh, I don’t know. I think we better face what’s in front of us.
Les Leopold:
You’re right.
Chris Hedges:
We’re not going to resist by selling hope.
Les Leopold:
You’re right.
Chris Hedges:
That’s not our job. Our job is to sell truth. Not sell it, but say it.
Les Leopold:
You can’t build something unless you face up to it.
Chris Hedges:
No. I learned that in war. People had a pollyannish view of their own immortality didn’t live too long. We have to see what’s in front of us and then we have to resist. But I highly recommend your book. I think you nailed it. I think it’s a really, really important book, and I want to thank you for writing it.
That was Les Leopold, co-founder of the Labor Institute and author of Wall Street’s War on Workers: How Mass layoffs and Greed are Destroying the Working-Class and What to do About it. I want to thank The Real News Network and its production team, Cameron Granadino, Adam Coley, David Hebden, and Kayla Rivera. You can find me at chrisedges.substack.com.
]]></content:encoded>
<post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">311530</post-id> </item>
<item>
<title>‘Seguiremos trabajando por nuestro comunidad’: La comunidad Latina en Baltimore responde a la crisis del Puente de Francis Scott Key</title>
<link>https://therealnews.com/la-comunidad-latina-en-baltimore-responde-a-la-crisis-del-puente-de-francis-scott-key</link>
<dc:creator><![CDATA[Maximillian Alvarez]]></dc:creator>
<pubDate>Fri, 05 Apr 2024 16:32:26 +0000</pubDate>
<category><![CDATA[Baltimore]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Racial Justice]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[baltimore]]></category>
<category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
<guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=311537</guid>
<description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="1024" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?fit=1024%2C1024&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="TRNN Editor-in-Chief Maximillian Alvarez (far left) records an in-person podcast with members of the Baltimore Latino/Latine community, including: Victor (top left) and Claudia (top center), co-owners of El Taquito Mexicano restaurant; Lucia Islas (top right) of Comité Latino de Baltimore; Carlos Crespo (right center) of Centro de Apoyo Para la Superación del Inmigrante; Susana Barrios (far right) of Latino Racial Justice Circle; and Norma Martinez (bottom left), a high-school student in Baltimore from Honduras. Photo taken on March 29, 2024 by Ricardo Ortíz of Centro de Apoyo Para la Superación del Inmigrante." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=300%2C300&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=1024%2C1024&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=150%2C150&ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=768%2C768&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=1536%2C1536&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=2048%2C2048&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=1200%2C1200&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=800%2C800&ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=600%2C600&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=400%2C400&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=200%2C200&ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=1568%2C1568&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=2000%2C2000&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?fit=1024%2C1024&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>En este podcast bilingüe, hablamos con representantes de organizaciones comunitarias Latinas en Baltimore sobre sus esfuerzos para apoyar a las familias afectadas por el colapso del Puente Francis Scott Key y la situación de los trabajadores inmigrantes en los Estados Unidos hoy en día.]]></description>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="1024" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?fit=1024%2C1024&ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="TRNN Editor-in-Chief Maximillian Alvarez (far left) records an in-person podcast with members of the Baltimore Latino/Latine community, including: Victor (top left) and Claudia (top center), co-owners of El Taquito Mexicano restaurant; Lucia Islas (top right) of Comité Latino de Baltimore; Carlos Crespo (right center) of Centro de Apoyo Para la Superación del Inmigrante; Susana Barrios (far right) of Latino Racial Justice Circle; and Norma Martinez (bottom left), a high-school student in Baltimore from Honduras. Photo taken on March 29, 2024 by Ricardo Ortíz of Centro de Apoyo Para la Superación del Inmigrante." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?w=2560&ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=300%2C300&ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=1024%2C1024&ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=150%2C150&ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=768%2C768&ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=1536%2C1536&ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=2048%2C2048&ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=1200%2C1200&ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=800%2C800&ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=600%2C600&ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=400%2C400&ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=200%2C200&ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=1568%2C1568&ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?resize=2000%2C2000&ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?w=2340&ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_1860-edited-scaled.jpeg?fit=1024%2C1024&ssl=1&w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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Cuando el icónico puente de Francis Scott Key en Baltimore colapsó alrededor de las 1:30 am del martes, 26 de marzo, ocho hombres que se encontraban trabajando en el puente en ese momento fueron arrojados a las frías aguas del río Patapsco. Dos de esos hombres fueron recuperados con vida, los otros seis no. <a href="https://therealnews.com/missing-presumed-dead-workers-from-key-bridge-werent-informed-of-mayday-call" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Así como TRNN reportó previamente</a>, toda la evidencia existente apunta al hecho de que estos trabajadores—que se encontraban trabajando para un contratista no sindicalizado, Brawner Builders, rellenando baches en el puente—<a href="https://www.democracynow.org/2024/3/27/francis_scott_key_bridge_collapse_baltimore" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">no recibieron advertencia alguna del despacho de emergencia</a> del buque de transporte Dali, el cual se encontraba a punto de chocar con el puente.
Mientras Baltimore aún se tambaleaba con el shock del colapso del puente, las investigaciones comenzaron acerca de cuál fue la raíz del accidente, mientras comenzamos a tomar lista del sísmico impacto económico así como los potenciales impactos ambientales que este catastrófico accidente tendrá a futuro, las familias de los seis trabajadores que fallecieron, lloran esta pérdida incalculable. <a href="https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/community/transportation/victims-key-bridge-collapse-3L35PNJLQVDWVBAO3Q5GTGSXTA/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Como Clara Long de Frietas escribe en The Baltimore Banner</a> “Todos los hombres que se han confirmado o se han presunto muertos habían emigrado de Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador o México. Ellos eran Alejandro Hernandez Fuentes, 35; Dorlian Ronial Castillo Cabrera, 26; Miguel Luna, 49; Maynor Yassir Suazo Sandoval, 38; Jose Mynor Lopez, 35; y un hombre aún no identificado… Todos ellos vinieron a Baltimore en busca de una mejor vida.”
En medio de la tragedia, voluntarios, organizadores de la comunidad, organizaciones de justicia para los inmigrantes y Latinos, negocios y muchos más han respondido con incansables esfuerzos para apoyar a las familias de los trabajadores fallecidos, y para brindar apoyo en general a las comunidades de Latinos y de inmigrantes de Baltimore. En este podcast especial bilingüe, grabado en tanto Español como en Inglés en el restaurante El Taquito Mexicano en Fells Point, El Editor en Jefe de la TRNN Maximillian Alvarez, junto con un panel de organizadores de justicia para los Latinos e inmigrantes y miembros de la comunidad Latina se prepara para discutir estos esfuerzos, que es lo que se sabe de estos hombres que estaban trabajando en aquel puente, y que nos dice esta tragedia sobre la difícil situación actual de los trabajadores inmigrantes de Baltimore y en los Estados Unidos. Los Panelistas incluyen a: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/ricardortiznews/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Ricardo Ortiz</a>, vicepresidente del <a href="https://www.lrjc.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Centro de Apoyo Para la Superación del Inmigrante</a> (CAPSI); <a href="https://www.facebook.com/susana.barrios3" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Susana Barrios</a>, vicepresidenta de <a href="https://www.lrjc.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Latino Racial Justice Circle</a>; Carlos Crespo, quien es voluntario en el Centro de Apoyo Para la Superación del Inmigrante (CAPSI); <a href="https://www.southeastcdc.org/who-we-are/staff/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Lucia Islas</a>, presidenta del <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/ComiteLatinoDeBaltimore/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Comité Latino de Baltimore</a>; Norma Martinez, estudiante de preparatoria en Baltimore, nacida en Honduras (y la hija adoptiva de Max); Claudia, copropietaria de <a href="https://www.facebook.com/eltaquitomexicanorestaurante/?locale=es_LA" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">El Taquito Mexicano</a>; Victor, copropietario de <a href="https://www.facebook.com/eltaquitomexicanorestaurante/?locale=es_LA" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">El Taquito Mexicano</a>.
<a href="https://secure.qgiv.com/for/265-mima-keybridgeemergencyresponse/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Baltimore Immigrant Community Fund Key Bridge Emergency Response</a>
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Studio Production: Maximillian Alvarez Post-Production: Alina Nehlich
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">TRANSCRIPT</h2>
Maximillian Alvarez: Welcome, everyone, to The Real News Network Podcast. My name is Maximillian Alvarez, I’m the editor-in-chief here at The Real News, and it’s so great to have you all with us. 
Bienvenidos a todos al podcast del Real News Network. Mi nombre es Maximillian Alvarez, soy el jefe de redacción del Real News Network, y estoy feliz que ustedes están aquí con nosotros. 
A reminder that The Real News is a viewer and listener supported network, and it’s only with your support that we are able to keep doing this work, so please support us if you can, head on over to <a href="http://therealnews.com/donate">therealnews.com/donate</a> and donate today. 
Este es un recordatorio de que el Real News es una publicación que solo existe con el apoyo de nuestra audiencia, y no podemos continuar nuestro trabajo sin sus donaciones. Pues, por favor, ven al <a href="http://therealnews.com/donate">therealnews.com/donate</a>. 
Six men, immigrant construction workers from Central America, died in the catastrophic Key Bridge collapse last Tuesday. 
Seis hombres, trabajadores de construcción, inmigrantes de Centroamérica, murieron en el colapso del puente de Francis Scott Key en Baltimore la semana pasada. 
We know the names of five of the six victims. They were: 
<ul>
<li>Maynor Yassir Suazo Sandoval, age 38, who immigrated to the US from Honduras</li>
<li>Miguel Luna, age 49, who immigrated here from El Salvador</li>
<li>Jose Mynor Lopez, age 35, originally from Guatemala</li>
<li>Dorlian Ronial Castillo Cabrera, age 26, also immigrated here from Guatemala</li>
<li>Alejandro Hernandez Fuentes, age 35, originally from Mexico </li>
<li>The sixth worker who perished is currently unidentified, but is believed to be from Mexico as well</li>
</ul>
Sabemos los nombres de cinco de los seis fallecidos. Ellos son: 
<ul>
<li>Maynor Yassir Suazo Sandoval, 38 años, de Honduras</li>
<li>Miguel Luna, 49 años, de El Salvador</li>
<li>Jose Mynor Lopez, 35 años, de Guatemala</li>
<li>Dorlian Ronial Castillo Cabrera, 26 años, de Guatemala también </li>
<li>Alejandro Hernandez Fuentes, 35 años, originalmente de Mexico </li>
<li>Pensamos que el sexto fallecido es de México también. </li>
</ul>
Our hearts are broken for these men and their families. While the media will quickly forget about them, members of the Latino community here in Baltimore are mobilizing to support their families. Three days after the bridge collapse, I had the honor of sitting down with community organizers and representatives of multiple Latino and immigrant justice organizations in the city. 
Sentimos mucho dolor en nuestros corazones ahorita, y nuestros pensamientos están con estos hombres y sus familias. La media va a olvidarlos… eso sabemos… pero Latinos aquí en Baltimore, miembros de la comunidad, se están movilizando ahorita para apoyar a esas familias ahora y en la futura. Tres días después del colapso del puente, yo tuve el honor de sentarme y hablar con organizadores de comunidad y representantes de varias organizaciones de justicia para latinos e inmigrantes en la ciudad.
I spoke with… Yo hable con… Ricardo Ortiz, vice president of the Centro de Apoyo Para la Superación del Inmigrante (CAPSI); Susana Barrios, vice president of the <a href="https://www.lrjc.org/">Latino Racial Justice Circle</a>; Carlos Crespo, who volunteers at CAPSI; Lucia Islas, president of Comité Latino de Baltimore. I also spoke with Claudia and Victor, co-owners of El Taquito Mexicano, the restaurant where we had this conversation—and my own foster daughter, who herself is an undocumented high school student in Baltimore, Norma Martinez, also joined in on the conversation.
Here is our conversation that we had, which we conducted in Spanish and in English. I really hope folks listen to it, and I really apologize for my bad Spanish. Obviously, I’m not a native speaker, but I tried my best. 
Aquí está nuestra entrevista, que conducimos en español e inglés. Espero que la gente vaya a escucharla, y disculpa mi horrible español… Obviamente, no soy un hispanohablante nativo, pero hice mi mejor esfuerzo… 
Maximillian Alvarez: Alright, well, I am sitting here. It’s around 8:00 PM on Friday, March 29th. We’re gathered at El Taquito Mexicano in Fells Point in Baltimore at the end of a very long and hard week. 
Estamos sentando en el Taquito Mexicano, aquí en Baltimore, en Fells Point, después de una semana muy larga e intensa.
But we’re sitting here as a community. I am sitting at this table with some incredible people, heroes of the community. 
Estoy sentando en esta mesa con gente increíble, miembros de la comunidad, quien está luchando para la comunidad, para trabajadores y familias de trabajadores, como los de los seis trabajadores que se murieron esta semana.
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They’re here fighting with everything they’ve got when they’ve got their own families, when they’ve got their own jobs, but they’ve been fighting all week for this community, for families, and for working families, and for workers like the six brothers that we lost on that bridge this week. And so, I wanted to just start by going around the table, and before we get into, you know… We’re going to ask our guests what we know about these workers. But, of course, we want to give space to the family more than anything. So, please, we’re going to provide more information to you all about that. But please respect those families and please respect that we are trying to give them space right now.
Vamos a presentar más información sobre los trabajadores cuando la tenemos, pero obviamente queremos dar espacio a las familias ahorita. Y por favor, todos quien está escuchando ahorita, envíen tus sentimientos buenos, pero también, por favor, dale espacio a las familias también. Y vamos a hablar en la mesa ahorita. ¿Cómo estamos? Como latinos en esta ciudad, como latinos en América, como miembros de esta comunidad en Baltimore?
How are we doing—as Latinos, as members of this community, as brown people in America right now after this tragedy? So, I’m going to shut up, and we’re going to go around the table.
Ricardo Ortiz: Hola, gracias. Yo soy Ricardo. Vivo en Baltimore desde hace cinco años y creo que esta semana ha sido amargo-dulce. Primero, muy triste porque perdimos a miembros de nuestra comunidad, personas que como nosotros trabajan día a día para sacar adelante a su familia, sacar adelante el país. Muchas familias inmigrantes estamos aquí por un mejor futuro y el presenciado esta catástrofe que ha afectado nuestra comunidad ha sido muy triste.
It’s been a very hard moment for us as a community here in Baltimore because we lost six people of our community. And as immigrants, we are here for our families, for a better life, or for work. But at the same time, it is very powerful to see how the Baltimore community supports us, and we can see how the people here are with us, and that makes us feel like we are part of this community also. So, that’s what I can say about how it’s going on with our community. But also, I think it’s a great opportunity to show the reality that our community faces. A lot of the community here works here just to make a better life, but the pay is very bad. They don’t have enough resources for them and their families. So, I think it’s a lot to face right now for our community. But I’m very happy to share this table with a lot of people like me who are very interested in supporting our community.
Y dentro de esto, amargo y dulce, ha sido también muy poderoso ver que hemos vivido el respaldo de la comunidad, porque nos han apoyado mucho. Inmediatamente, las autoridades salieron a apoyarnos y también hemos visto cómo la comunidad se ha acercado a nosotros para decir: «¿Hey, qué necesita tu comunidad?». Ha sido como muchos sabores, pero estamos también aprovechando el momento para decir las necesidades que enfrenta nuestra comunidad. Muchos venimos a trabajar por una mejor vida o por nuestras familias que viven en nuestros países de origen, y ahora nos damos cuenta de que la gente ya está poniendo atención a que las personas trabajadoras no les pagan lo suficiente, no les dan los artículos necesarios para protegerse en su lugar de trabajo, pero también las autoridades a veces «se hacen de la vista gorda», como dijéramos en México, de que saben que estamos enfrentando esto, tienen poder, pero no hace nada para cambiar las cosas. Pero a la misma vez ver cómo estoy con otras personas que nos hemos empoderado y nos hemos acercado para unir fuerzas y decir hasta un ¡ya basta!, pero también las cosas no están bien y tenemos que hacer algo desde nuestra comunidad.
Maximillian Alvarez: Y también, lo siento, podemos introducirnos también y nuestras organizaciones, si quieren.
Ricardo Ortiz: Claro. Yo soy Ricardo Ortiz, trabajo en una organización que se llama el Centro de los Derechos del Migrante. Somos una organización binacional que tenemos oficinas en México y en los Estados Unidos. Aquí en Estados Unidos tenemos oficina en Baltimore y nosotros nos enfocamos en apoyar a las personas trabajadoras, especialmente a las personas trabajadoras con visas temporales o seasonal workers, que vienen un tiempo a trabajar y regresan a México. Y que eso también es otra parte muy triste que enfrentamos, que a pesar de que estas personas siguen un proceso migratorio para poder venir a trabajar con un permiso de trabajo a este país, la situación que enfrentan es terrible y muchas veces tienen más violaciones que las personas que a lo mejor viven acá, entonces, es muy interesante.Y también estoy apoyando a CAPSI, que somos una organización local. Somos un grupo, un colectivo de líderes y lideresas en Baltimore que queremos empoderar a la comunidad.
So, my name is Ricardo Ortiz. I work with Centro de los Derechos del Migrante, or CDM. We are a binational organization, or nonprofit, and we support immigrant workers, and specific seasonal workers, or workers with H2A or B visas here in the United States. And it’s very interesting to see the other faces of the workers who came here with a work permission that also faced very difficult situation in their spaces of work.
Susana Barrios:
Buenas noches, mi nombre es Susana Barrios. Trabajo para una organización sin fines de lucro que trabaja para la protección y abogacía de las personas con discapacidades.
Good evening. My name is Susana Barrios. I work for a nonprofit organization that works… it’s a protection and advocacy agency for people with disabilities. 
También soy vicepresidenta de otra organización que se llama Latino Racial Justice Circle y soy voluntaria también con CAPSI.
I am also the vice president of Latino Racial Justice Circle, and I also volunteer with CAPSI. 
Me siento ahora culpable. Me siento mal porque quisiera ayudar más, pero a la vez estoy en mi casa cómoda y sé que hay muchas personas trabajando, entonces me siento mal por no poder ayudar más.
So, right now, I feel guilty because I am home. I feel bad for everybody, but I am home, and I am worried about the first responders that are out there working. And I wish there was more I could do.
Carlos Crespo: Bueno, mi nombre es Carlos Crespo. Yo soy participante con CAPSI. Me gusta ayudar mucho a la comunidad.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Hello, my name is Carlos Crespo. I’m a participant with CAPSI, and I like to help the community.
Carlos Crespo: Soy un padre de familia que tengo una niña con discapacidad, pero eso no nos detiene a mi esposa y a mí para seguir luchando por nuestra comunidad.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) I am a father of a young lady that has a disability, but that doesn’t stop my wife and myself from helping the community.
Carlos Crespo: Y sinceramente, esta semana yo me he sentido un poco triste porque no tiene mucho que pasamos la situación de las familias que perdieron los dos niños y el primo.  
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And sincerely, this week, I have been feeling sad because it also hasn’t been very long since we helped a family that lost two young children and their cousin.
Carlos Crespo: Pero yo lo digo una vez más, nosotros estamos hechos de acero porque así como nos caemos, nos levantamos y seguimos adelante. Y afortunadamente, no necesitamos pedir del Gobierno para poder seguir luchando y trabajando.  
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And I’ll say it again, we are made of steel, because we might fall down, but just like we fall down, we will get up, and we don’t need the government to keep on going.
Carlos Crespo: Porque no estamos acostumbrados de estirar la mano y pedirle al país, sino nosotros, aunque sea tres trabajos, pero nos gusta trabajar y no estar pidiéndole al Gobierno, como mucha gente piensa que nosotros los hispanos vivimos del Gobierno.  
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Because we are not used to holding out our hands and asking for help from the government, because a lot of people think that we like to live off the government.
Carlos Crespo: Y esperemos que realmente en muy corto tiempo encontremos a un César Chávez o a un Martin Luther King, que luchó por las comunidades. Yo sé que por ahí anda, pero todavía no lo encontramos. Y esperemos que realmente encontremos a un líder como ellos, y yo sé que nuestras comunidades van a cambiar. 
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And let’s hope that, very soon, we can find a Cesar Chavez or a Martin Luther King. I know that that person is there. They were people that fought very hard for our communities, and we are hoping to find them soon.
Maximillian Alvarez: Y hoy es el día de César Chávez ¿No?
Susana Barrios: Oh, wow! OK. 
Maximillian Alvarez: Yo solo quería decir que estoy sentando en esta mesa con gente así. Todos. No, continúa, por favor, pero quería decirlo.
I wanted to say that I’m sitting at a table full of those people. You guys are it. We are it. You are it. You are fighting the same fight, and you are reminding people out there that we are the change we’ve been waiting for. We are the heroes we’ve been waiting for. 
Somos los héroes para quienes hemos estado esperando. 
God, did I butcher that? Did that make sense?
Estoy sentado en esta mesa con héroes. Lo siento, no quería interrumpir, pero solo quería decirlo.
Carlos Crespo: Es que yo creo que estamos cansados, que nos utilicen nada más como animales, que nada más vengamos a hacer dinero. Me estoy cansando de que nos vean como dinero, nada más, como política.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) I think we’re getting tired of people using us only as animals. I’m honestly getting tired that they only see us as a way to make money or seeing us as a political tool.
Carlos Crespo: Y sabemos que hablan de nosotros cuando vienen las elecciones, pasan las elecciones y se olvidan de uno, pero somos humanos.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And they talk about us only when there’s an election, but then, they forget about us. But we are human.
Carlos Crespo: Y sabemos, no es el tema que vamos a tocar, pero nosotros fuimos los más afectados de la pandemia.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And I know this is not the subject we’re going to talk about, but we were one of the most affected during the pandemic.
Carlos Crespo: Y hasta ahorita hay muchas personas que tienen problemas porque les dio el COVID y mucha de nuestra comunidad falleció porque no tuvieron los servicios médicos.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) As of today, there’s still many in our community that still have lingering effects because they got COVID, and many of our people died because they didn’t have access to medical assistance.
Carlos Crespo: Queremos que esto cambie, no queremos que nos vean como dinero, como oportunidad de pagarles menos y hagan el peor trabajo que nosotros no queremos hacer hoy aquí.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And we want you to not see us as easy money, a way to make money, where you can pay us less so that we have to do the work that nobody else wants to do.
Carlos Crespo: Y espero que yo realmente vea ese cambio.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And I hope to really see that change.
Carlos Crespo: Y vamos a seguir luchando por mi comunidad, porque yo no me voy a rendir. Y vamos a seguir dando la cara por los que no pueden dar la cara, por los que tienen que trabajar tres trabajos. Pero nosotros que tenemos la oportunidad de salir y hablar, lo vamos a seguir haciendo.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And we are going to keep fighting for our community. We are going to keep stepping up, be the face of the community. We are stepping up for those that have three jobs, for those, we are going to be the face of those that cannot step up.
Carlos Crespo: Y esperemos estas familias que tuvieron la desgracia puedan lograr algo y puedan estabilizarse. Sabemos que emocionalmente va a ser difícil, pero esperemos y realmente les den la ayuda que necesitan, a ellos y a sus hijos.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) We hope that these families that have suffered this tragedy are able to get stable. We hope that they are able to get the help they need, not only for themselves, but for their children.
Carlos Crespo: Porque sabemos que el dinero no les va a ayudar. La salud mental de ellos va a estar bien difícil que se vuelvan a recuperar.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Because we know that the money is not going to help them. Their mental health is going to be difficult, and they are going to need to recover.
Carlos Crespo: Y le voy a pasar ahora a la señora Lucía para que siga hablando ella.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Now, I’m going to hand it off to Señora Lucia so she can speak next. Thank you.
Lucia Islas: Hola, buenas tardes a todos. Mi nombre es Lucía Islas. Soy la presidenta del Comité Latino de Baltimore. Llevo 17 años trabajando para Baltimore, muy orgullosamente fundadora de muchas organizaciones donde ya no pertenezco, pero estuve trabajando. Soy parte de Mis Raíces, soy parte de CAPSI, Centro del Apoyo para la Superación del Inmigrante. La pregunta aquí es: ¿Cómo me siento el día de hoy?… 
Hi, everyone. My name is Lucia Islas. I am the president of Comité Latino de Baltimore. I’ve been working here in Baltimore for almost 17 years. I’m so proud to say that I’m a volunteer in many ONG like Mis Raices Also, I was one of the founders of one organization that now I left. But I’ve been working a lot and I’ve been working on the ground with my community.
El día de hoy, la verdad, yo soy muy fuerte. Yo me siento bien, pero en mi corazón hay tristeza por nuestra comunidad. Y lo más triste que puedo decir yo es que si nosotros no lo hacemos, ¿quién lo va a hacer?
So today, I’m here, I’m okay. I study psychology, and I always try to take care of myself. I do a lot of mindfulness so I know how to control myself, but my heart is crying. From the bottom of my heart, I can say that I always think that if we don’t do the work, who is going to do it? And Don Carlos once saying something about Martin Luther King, I always said that I also have a dream for my community. I have a dream for my community to be successful, to be the same way to everyone.
Como mi compañera estaba diciendo, yo siempre digo que yo también tengo un sueño como Martin Luther King. Yo quiero que nuestra comunidad sea igual, que tenga mucho progreso en este país y que sea tratado igual, sobre todo.
The day that this thing happened, it was so sad. I have a daughter, she’s 14 years old, and she told me, “Mom, look. What’s going on?”
El día que pasó esto, fue muy triste. Mi hija de 14 años me dijo. 
So I start looking everything, and I noticed that somebody, because everybody knows us here in this community, so we have a lot of WhatsApp groups.
Nosotros tenemos muchos grupos de WhatsApp y yo me di cuenta que gente estaba comentando cosas y haciéndonos preguntas.
So right away, and this is something that Susanna didn’t say, but right away that day from 8:00 A.M. and literally to 9:00 or 10:00 P.M. we were receiving calls.
Literalmente ese día, desde las ocho de la mañana hasta las diez de la noche, estuvimos recibiendo llamadas.
And we are always the ones that keep calling politics people saying, “This is happening, please do this. Pay attention to our community.”
Nosotros hacemos siempre eso. Yo puedo decir que tengo buena relación con mucha gente de aquí, que como sabe nuestro trabajo, nosotros empujamos un poquito diciendo: «Está pasando esto, por favor, tomen en cuenta nuestra comunidad».
And I can say that, yes, when we made a call, because they trust us and they know that we are working with the community, they always are listening to us. Since then, we are working with the community.
Desde ese día estamos trabajando con la comunidad.
Yes, we know some of the names.
Sí sabemos varios nombres
But we are always looking to have confidentiality. And I always think about dignity.
Yo siempre pienso confidencialidad y dignidad.
This is something that our people cannot lose. They cannot lose the dignity. Yes, they are suffering. Yes, there is a lot of help, but it has to be just private. We cannot say anything.
Yo creo que siempre tenemos que cuidar la dignidad. Están sufriendo, debe de ser privado.
And I think the most important thing right here in this table is that we are more than thankful that somebody is listening to us, and that everybody can hear what the Latino community is feeling about it.
Creo que lo más importante es que alguien como usted nos está escuchando y que todos los demás escuchen lo que nosotros sentimos.
This is something very hard for us. Even for my little one, she’s 14, she was like, “Mommy, what’s going on?” They don’t know. She just watched the news that something happened. But can you imagine everything that went through her mind? 
Nosotros no sabemos de verdad el daño que les hace hasta la gente que no estaba aquí, como mi hija, que ve algo y ella piensa: «¿Qué está pasando?». Entonces, es algo que tenemos que cuidar. 
Thank you. 
Claudia: Buenas tardes, mi nombre es Claudia. Soy la dueña de El Taquito Mexicano. Con mi esposo, el señor Víctor.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Good afternoon. My name is Claudia. I’m the owner of El Taquito Mexicano, with my husband, Mr. Victor.
Claudia: Y sí nos da pesar todo lo que pasa en la comunidad hispana, pero es algo bonito saber que hay un grupo de personas que se dedican a ayudar a la gente, que ponen toda su dedicación.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Yes, I worry a lot about what’s happening in the Latino community, or the Hispanic community, but it’s also very heartwarming to see that there’s a group of people that are worried about our community and the situation. 
Claudia: Y a nosotros nos agrada que tomen nuestro negocio para venir a hacer estas cosas. Con mucho gusto estamos aquí para lo que ellos necesiten.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And we feel grateful that they like to come to our business to have these types of meetings, and we welcome them with open arms.
Claudia: Sabemos que ellos son las personas adecuadas para brindarle el apoyo a la gente que lo necesita.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) We know that they are the appropriate people that can provide the support that they need. 
Claudia: Y sabemos que ellos siempre van a dar lo mejor para la comunidad hispana.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And we know that they will always give the best of themselves to the Hispanic community.
Claudia: Esperemos que las familias de estas personas que perdieron la vida en el accidente que hubo.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) We hope that these people that lost their life in the accident that happened… 
Claudia: … pronto se recuperen y sabemos que este grupo en particular los va a ayudar bastante.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) … that they’re able to move forward soon, and we know that this group will be able to help them.
Victor:  Hola, buenas noches. Mi nombre es Víctor, tenemos unos 15 años más o menos de vivir aquí en Baltimore.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Hello, my name is Victor, and I have lived here in Baltimore about 15 years.
Victor:  Después de la tragedia, que creo que todos estamos hablando, es triste que nos toca más siempre a los latinos.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And after the tragedy that I think all of us have been talking about lately, it is very sad that it always happens to us, Latinos.
Victor:  Es triste, pero yo recuerdo que hace unos 12 años caminaba por las calles de Baltimore y se asombraba cuando usted escuchaba hablar a alguien en español, porque no había casi hispanos.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) But it’s very sad, but I remember around 12 years ago when you walked the streets of Baltimore and it was very surprising to hear somebody speak Spanish because there weren’t that many Hispanics.
Victor:  De alguna manera nos sentimos orgullosos que seamos más gente trabajando en este país.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) In some ways, we are very proud because there are more of us working in this country 
Victor:  Porque lo primero que pensaban, es que cuando estábamos llegando pensaban que veníamos a delinquir, a robar. Y no es cierto, les estamos demostrando que estamos trabajando y seguiremos trabajando.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Because the first thing they would think when they saw us was that we would come here to commit crimes, to rob. And we are showing them that that’s not true. We’re working. We’re working very hard.
Victor:  Esperamos que se le apoye un poco más al hispano, porque de verdad somos gente luchadora y vamos a seguir adelante. Ojalá y alguna autoridad que escuche nos pueda ayudar. De verdad que vamos a hacer más grande Baltimore.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And we hope that they find a way to support the Hispanics more because we can go far. We hope that somebody that’s listening can help us, can give us that support, because we can make Baltimore stronger.
Norma Martinez: Hola, mi nombre es Norma Martínez y estamos aquí en la mesa hablando sobre todo lo que está sucediendo en Baltimore.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Hello, my name is Norma Martinez and we are here gathered at the table to discuss everything that’s happening in Baltimore.
Norma Martinez: Es increíble lo que está pasando, porque los mismos latinos estamos luchando para los que fallecieron.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And it’s incredible what’s happening here because Latinos are fighting to help those that passed away. 
Norma Martinez: Y la pregunta aquí es: ¿Dónde está la compañía donde ellos trabajaban? ¿En qué están apoyando?
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And the question here is where is the company where they were working? What are they doing to help? 
Norma Martinez: ¿Ellos se han contactado con los familiares? Han dicho: «¿Los podemos ayudar o algo?».
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Have they contacted the families? Have they asked them if they can help, or something similar?
Norma Martinez: Y otra cosa es que para los que están perdidos, es como que no están poniendo demasiado empeño, por ejemplo, el gobierno.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And another thing is, I don’t think that for those bodies that are lost, it doesn’t seem that the government is doing a lot.
Norma Martinez: Y es difícil ser latino porque es como que no importa si se murió o se perdió. Es como que tenemos que ser americanos para que el gobierno nos ponga atención.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And it’s hard being Latinos because it feels like they don’t care if we are lost. It feels like you need to be American for the government to worry about you.
Norma Martinez: O también no tener dinero los familiares para estar presionando al gobierno para que hagan algo.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And also, it’s hard that the families don’t have any money so that they can pressure the government for them to do something.
Norma Martinez: Y es muy triste de que el gobierno solo los utilice para trabajo, pero que cuando pase algo, es como que ellos no se dan cuenta o simplemente no importa.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And it’s very sad that the government is only using them for work, but when we need them, they are not there for us.
Norma Martinez: Es impresionante todo lo que está pasando.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And I don’t know, it’s very impressive, all of that’s happening.
Norma Martinez: Esperemos que todo salga bien y entre nosotros podemos ayudarnos.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And let’s hope that there’s a positive outcome and we are able to help each other.
Norma Martinez: Otra vez, que el gobierno se ponga pilas con los latinos, porque es como los que están trabajando más duro y no reciben nada a cambio.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And once again, I want the government to support the Latinos because we are the ones that are working very hard and we don’t get anything in exchange. Thank you.
Norma Martinez: Gracias
Maximillian Alvarez: Y también solo quería preguntar, que eres una joven y tienes amigos en esta ciudad ahorita, quien trabaja en construcción.
You are a young person. You’re 18, you have friends who work in construction. No?
Norma Martinez: Sí, y también de mi colegio, muchos latinos que quieren seguir estudiando se van del colegio porque no tienen cómo vivir.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Yes. And also in my school, there are a lot of students that would like to go to college, but they can’t because they have to leave school so they can go to work.
Norma Martinez: Sí, siempre ellos dicen: «Necesitamos ayudar a mis papás a pagar renta, hacer todo, porque el gobierno no nos echa ni una mano».
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And they say, “We need to go help our parents. We need to pay rent and everything because we don’t get any type of help from the government.” 
Norma Martinez: Y los padres no tienen suficiente dinero como también para pagar universidades y todo eso.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And the parents also don’t have enough money to be able to pay a college tuition. 
Norma Martinez: Y a veces, muchos dicen de que: «Los latinos son maleducados, que ni tan siquiera van a la universidad».
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And sometimes people say that Latinos are uneducated and that they don’t even go to college,
Norma Martinez: Pero no se dan cuenta que también no nos están ayudando para poder progresar.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) But they don’t notice that they’re not helping us so that we can succeed. 
Norma Martinez: Y la única opción que queda es dejar la escuela y trabajar.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And the only option that’s left is leaving school and going to work.
Maximillian Alvarez: Otra vez, es increíble sentar en esta mesa con esos humanos increíbles. Incluso mi hija. 
It’s just incredible to be sitting here at this table amidst this tragedy with just such incredible human beings, including my daughter. But I wanted to just sort of ask again. We’re going to give folks more details in the show notes for this episode about the men who died, the fundraisers that are being directed through the city, and links to the organizations represented by the amazing folks here.
Y vamos a incluir la información de los trabajadores que se murieron esta semana en las notas de este episodio. Y también vamos a incluir los enlaces de los sitios de estas organizaciones representados a los organizadores aquí en la mesa. Pero yo quería preguntar, ¿cómo fue esta semana? ¿Cómo fue el proceso de ayudar a esta comunidad? Y nos habla un poco más de las conversaciones con otros miembros de la comunidad que han tenido esta semana y los periodistas, quienes están hablando de esta tragedia y sus respuestas a eso.
So I just want to talk a little bit about what it’s been like for you all to try to do what you do this week, and try to help the community. A lot of people were asking, “Are there fundraisers? If so, who’s running them? Who’s helping the community?” So, yeah, if you could just talk about what it’s been like for you all in your different organizations this week and the kind of work you were doing, and the kind of conversations you’re getting into with other Latinos in the community
Ricardo Ortiz: Aquí, de nuevo, Ricardo. Y lo que hemos escuchado es que eran personas trabajadoras, que normalmente trabajaban por las noches, normalmente ocho o nueve de la noche salía de sus casas y regresaban al día siguiente. Tienen familias, varios de ellos son de México, Guatemala y El Salvador, Honduras. Y sabemos que estos trabajos de construcción es uno de los trabajos que más hace nuestra comunidad, pero al mismo tiempo, el segundo trabajo más peligroso en este país para realizar.
So we know that these six workers had families and they are from Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. And we know they work in construction. And construction is one of the most dangerous workplaces for everyone in this country. So this is something that we know. and yeah, I think that’s something I can share about it.
Maximillian Alvarez: Talk to me about what it’s been like for you to try to help or respond to this.
Ricardo Ortiz: Sí, realmente quien ha hecho mucho han sido aquí mis compañeros, apoyando. Yo desde CAPSI, nuestro grupo, hemos apoyado en redes sociales. Inmediatamente, cuando me desperté como a las siete de la mañana, algo así, Susana me mandó un mensaje de WhatsApp y me dijo: «Oye, ¿sabes esto? Sería bueno que publicáramos algo en nuestra página».
So when I wake up at 6:00 AM, Susana sent me a WhatsApp and she asked me, “Hey, do you know what happened a few hours ago? And it will be good if we can post something on social media to ask the people, ‘Hey, do you need any support? Are you okay or how we can support you?’” And we created a post where we ask the people, “If you need anything, just let us know.” And we had some conversation with government representatives from Baltimore County and Baltimore City, and we ask them, “If you need anything, we can support you.”
Y también nos contactamos con representantes del Gobierno de la ciudad y del condado para decirles lo que necesitemos, y también ellos, si conocen gente intercambiar esta información. Con autoridades del Gobierno de México también
So we also talk with the Consular of Mexico to say, “Hey, it’s some Mexican people here. Just keep an eye about it.” So yeah.
Susana Barrios: A mí me empezaron, desde las cinco de la mañana, me empezaron a mandar textos. La primera fue mi hija, que quería saber si estaba viva.
So at 5:00 in the morning, I started getting texts. The first person was my daughter. She wanted to make sure I was alive. And then I started putting on the WhatsApp group, “If anybody needs help, we are here to help.”
Empecé yo a poner los informes en nuestros grupos de WhatsApp, que si alguien necesitaba ayuda, estábamos ahí para ayudarlos. Luego, en mi caso, la cónsul de Guatemala, cada vez que hay una tragedia en Baltimore, se comunica con nosotros y nos dice: «Si hay connacionales, me dejan saber para saber cómo podemos apoyar».
And then the Consulate of Guatemala texted me and she said, “If there’s anybody that’s affected from our country, then let us know, so we are here to help.”
Nosotros empezamos a ver en qué podíamos ayudar, porque no queremos hacer algo sin las familias.
And then we started to see how we could help, but we couldn’t do anything without the families and knowing what it is that they need.
Y luego, en mi organización de Latino Racial Justice Circle, también como dijo Ricardo, estábamos en comunicación con los del condado. Luego nos comunicamos con el condado porque era una situación bastante complicada. La parte de la tierra pertenece al condado, el puente pertenece a la ciudad y el agua pertenece al estado. Entonces, era algo complicado. Ellos nos dijeron que podíamos hacer un GoFundMe, porque una persona estaba en directo contacto con las familias y las familias autorizaron que nosotros hiciéramos el GoFundMe.
So then we were in contact with the government agencies because it’s very complicated. The land part belongs to Baltimore County. The bridge belongs to Baltimore City. And the water belongs to the state. So we got the go-ahead from the families that we could start a GoFundMe, because the families were okay with us doing the GoFundMe. And with all the other organizations, what we usually do is we’re like, okay, this one organization is going to do it. And instead of doing a whole bunch of little GoFundMes, everybody sends us this direction.
Todas las organizaciones también sabemos de que en lugar de hacer un montón de GoFundMe, hicimos solo uno y todos los demás dirigían a eso. No esperamos que fuera la respuesta tan rápida.
We didn’t expect the response to be so fast.
Nosotros, Latino Racial Justice Circle, es una organización que solo son voluntarios, no estábamos capacitados para trabajar con mucho dinero.
Latino Racial Justice Circle is a volunteer-run organization and we don’t feel like we have the capacity to work with so much money. So then at that point we started to work with MIMA, the Mayor’s Office of Immigrant Affairs.
Ahí empezamos a trabajar con MIMA, la oficina del alcalde de Asuntos de Inmigrantes. Ellos ahí activaron la página de donaciones, que se creó como una asociación entre la administración de la ciudad de Baltimore y el Fondo Cívico de Baltimore. El Fondo Comunitario de Inmigrantes de Baltimore ya existía para apoyar a los inmigrantes en la ciudad con una estipulación que es la respuesta de emergencia y crisis.
So we work with MIMA and they activated the donation page that was created as a partnership between the administration of Baltimore City and the Baltimore Civic Fund. The Baltimore Immigrant Community Fund already existed to support immigrants in the city with one stipulation, being that emergency and crisis response. So in this one, I think they started when it was the COVID response.
Y esto empezó cuando fue la respuesta de COVID, ellos ya tenían el mecanismo, solo era de activarlo.
So they had that mechanism in place and they just needed to activate it. So we opened it at 9:00, but we really didn’t publicize it until I think more like 11:00. And we had to close it by a little bit before 7:00.
Lo abrimos a las nueve de la mañana, pero no lo pusimos público hasta como eso de las once de la mañana, creo yo. Y ya para las siete de la noche, ya lo tuvimos que cerrar. Pero entonces, todos los de medios de comunicación nos estaban llamando, porque querían hablar.
So a lot of the media and reporters, they were calling us and calling us because they wanted to talk to us. But it was because I think a lot of them wanted information about the families. We did not have any information about the families directly.
Muchos de ellos querían información acerca de las familias, pero nosotros no teníamos y no tenemos información directamente de las familias, porque estamos respetando y la verdad que no nos importa saber.
And the truth is that we really don’t care to know because we know that they are going to receive the money directly. And at this point we don’t need to know who they are.
Les vamos a entregar el dinero directamente, pero ahorita no necesitamos saber quiénes son. 100 % de lo que se va a recaudar se va a dividir entre ellos, nosotros no tenemos ningunos gastos en nuestra organización. Solo estamos esperando a que GoFundMe nos deposite el dinero para poder darles a ellos en un cheque.
So 100% of the proceeds are going to go to the families. We are volunteer run again and we don’t have any expenses. We are just waiting for the money to be released to our bank account so that we can make out the checks to the families once we identify who the next of kin is.
Solo que tenemos que identificar quién es el familiar más cercano de esas personas. Pero también estamos trabajando en conjunto con el Gobierno del Condado de Baltimore County.
And we are working along with Baltimore County government who is supporting the families.
Carlos Crespo: También lo que estamos empezando a hacer con doña Lucía es ver a los que son dueños de negocios como restaurantes.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And also what we are doing with Doña Lucia is we are talking to business owners like restaurants.
Carlos Crespo: Porque ellos nos ofrecieron la ayuda de llevarles comida a los familiares de los fallecidos.  
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Because they have offered to provide food to the family members of the victims.
Carlos Crespo: Porque sabemos que todos los que fueron afectados son hispanos y realmente el americano normalmente lo que lleva es comida en lata.  
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And because we know that they are Hispanic and what we know is usually what Americans donate, canned food.
Carlos Crespo: Y también quiero agradecerle a Vargas Bakery, porque él es una persona que también le pide uno la ayuda y él la da para la comunidad.  
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And I also want to thank Vargas Bakery because the owner is a person that if we ask for help, he always provides to the community.
Carlos Crespo: Y sabemos que más personas de negocios también lo hacen, pero él siempre levanta la mano.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And we know that other business owners also do it too, but he always raises his hand.
Carlos Crespo: Y sabemos que es un tiempo bien difícil para nuestra comunidad, pero como lo dijimos anteriormente, vamos a salir de esta también. 
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And we know that it’s a very hard time for our community. But as we said before, our community is strong and we will get through it.
Carlos Crespo: Y esperemos que realmente esas familias se recuperen del golpe que han tenido. Sabemos que va a ser difícil, pero no imposible.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And we hope that these families are able to surpass this. We know that it’s hard but not impossible.
Carlos Crespo: Y vamos a seguir trabajando para ellos. Vamos a asegurarnos que los hijos de ellos también reciban los servicios que ellos van a necesitar. 
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And we are going to keep working for them. We are going to make sure that their children get the services that they are going to need.
Carlos Crespo:  Y mientras Dios nos preste vida, vamos a seguir trabajando para nuestra comunidad.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And as long as God gives us strength, we are going to keep working for our community.
Carlos Crespo:  Gracias.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Thank you. 
Lucia Islas: El trabajo que se empezó a hacer desde el primer día es mucho más de lo que han dicho ellos.
So the work that we start doing since the first day, it’s more than they just said. Why?
¿Por qué? Porque como la gente tiene confianza en nosotros.
Because the community trusts us and they know us.
Nos empiezan a llamar para pequeños detalles. 
They start calling us. And I’m just going to give you an example.
Yo tengo una hija que trabaja en una escuela.
So I have a daughter that she works in a school, she called me.
Ella me llamó: «Mami, creo que hay un niño de las familias»
“Mommy, I think there is a kid that his father is one of the people that died.” 
So little things like that, they start calling us. She will not tell me if it is a kid or not, but she start receiving calls.
Mi hija empezó a recibir llamadas, 
Then she start calling me. Then a lot of restaurants, people that they know us start calling us saying, “How can we help?”
Restaurantes empiezan a llamarnos: «¿Cómo podemos ayudar?»
Politicians, reporters, churches, 
Políticos, reporteros, iglesias,
They start calling us. Why? Because they already know us.
Nos empiezan a llamar porque ya nos conocen.
So that’s how our work starts.
Es como nuestro trabajo empieza.
So what I do, I call Susana, I call Richard, Ricardo. We are more members. So I start calling everyone.
Lo que hacemos es empezamos a llamar a todos y todos tienen algo que hacer.
So Ricardo, he just said he’s the one that social media. Susana has a lot of contacts. Don Carlos also, he will call the restaurants. I will receive calls from the Red Cross. I will receive calls from politics.
Entonces, Ricardo empieza con social media, Susana empieza a recibir llamadas y a hacer contactos. Y don Carlos empieza a recibir llamadas de los restaurantes, yo también empiezo a recibir llamadas.
So one day we had a call from a woman saying that… It was not a call. So she put something in Facebook and she put a face like crying. And I said, “Can you call me?”
Ella puso una carita llorando, yo le dije: «¿Me puedes llamar?» 
And then we chat by Messenger. And then at the end I knew she knew me and I know her. So I was like, “Are you okay?”
Entonces, al final yo le pregunté: «¿Usted está bien?» Resultó que ella me conocía y yo la conocía.
And then she told me a story. She told me that, “No, I’m okay, but my son was just going through…” So her son just passed like five minutes before that happened. And can you believe the impact that this man, because he’s 45 years old, has? And I call him if he wants to talk about it, and he said not. So he used to work in the other side of the city, and regularly he comes at that time. 
Ella me dijo que su hijo acababa de pasar. Dice que unos cinco minutos o maybe menos que el hijo escuchó cuando eso se cayó. Entonces, su mamá, por eso puso la carita llorando, pero dijo: «No, yo estoy bien». Y la señora es mexicana. Entonces, yo le dije: «¿Quiere su hijo hablar?» Y me dijo que no.
So those little things make us work with the community. We are putting everything together like a puzzle. Like, “Okay, who needs this? What else do we need?” Susana was talking about taking care of the kids in the future. We are working already on that. 
Poquitas cosas que ponemos son como un rompecabezas y lo estamos poniendo ya junto. Susana ya está pensando qué se va a hacer con esa familia.
And something that is very important is that, even though we don’t know the families, we care about them. We really care about them. And we keeping receiving calls, like Ricardo just said. We put something in the social media saying, “Do you need something? Let us know.” And yes, we receive. We received response from the people. 
Como Ricardo estaba diciendo, él puso un post en Facebook y puso ahí: «Si necesitan algo, déjennos saber», y sí nos contestan.
So that’s the job that we do. Why they trust us… 
Porque antes, han pasado muchas cosas, no es la primera vez. Llevamos trabajando…
I’ve been working 14 years, Susana maybe more, not because she’s older than me, just because she has more experience… 
Yo llevo trabajando 17 años, Susana más, no porque sea más grande que yo, solo porque tiene más experiencia. Ricardo, Carlos, don Carlos… 
And like I said, we have Gevene, we have Edwin Perez, Mo. So we have also not just Latino. We have also African-American people together with us.
Tenemos mucha gente que nos ayuda y ese es nuestro trabajo
So I work at South East CDC. I am a case manager, 
Yo trabajo en Southeast CDC, soy case manager. 
And that makes the things easier because I know where to go and I know where to knock. 
Eso me hace más fácil a mí porque sé a dónde ir y sé a dónde tocar. 
Also, we have experience with many other organizations and we always are willing to participate with everyone. We’ve been working with, I think, most of them. As far as know, I think we have worked with all of them. 
Hemos trabajado con casi todas las organizaciones, de hecho hoy estuvimos en una rueda de prensa con Casa. Nosotros estamos donde nos necesiten,nosotros no tenemos ninguna barrera. 
We don’t have a line that divides us. We always are willing to participate, to have a partnership. It’s always for the future of our Latino community. That’s the only thing that matters for us. And thank you. 
Gracias. Es lo único que nos importa, trabajar y no tener líneas de división.
Maximillian Alvarez:
Well, I know, as we said, it’s been a long day at the end of a long week and we all need to go home and get some sleep. 
Yo sé que fue un día larga, fue una semana larga y tenemos que regresar a casa para dormir. Solo tengo una preguntita más. Al final, ¿qué queremos decir a la población de Baltimore y de los Estados Unidos de esta situación y la significancia de esta situación? ¿Cómo Ellos pueden ayudar la comunidad aquí? ¿Y por qué ellos deben ver nuestra comunidad en solidaridad con nosotros, no, [otro idioma 00:49:26] el opuesto, no contra nosotros? Como los hombres en East Palestine, Ohio, o en todas las partes del país.
So I just wanted to ask, by way of a final question, if we had any final thoughts that we wanted to share with the people of Baltimore, with the rest of the country, about what this tragedy says. What we really want people to take away from this. And also, what can we tell people out there about what they can do to help? From the people in East Palestine, Ohio, who have been texting me all week saying they stand in solidarity with us. How can we reach those communities? And what do we want to say to them about what they can do to support us and why they should?
Susana Barrios: Yo estoy agradecida por la respuesta, que no solo fue local ni estatal, sino que fue global. Se sintió el cariño y espero que le podamos explicar a las familias cómo la gente ha tratado de demostrar que les importa.
I am very thankful and grateful for the response that we received. And I hope that I can convey to the families all the well wishes that people not only local or in the United States, but globally were trying to show them. 
Y lo que sí quiero decir es de que esto no se va a acabar. Estoy segura que todos los reporteros se van a ir cuando pase alguna otra noticia en otra parte, pero estas familias van a seguir necesitando ayuda y que no se olviden de ellas.
And I want to say that the families will still be here, they will still have needs after all the reporters have left and they have moved on to the next big story. But these families will still be here and they will still need our support,, so please don’t forget them.
Ricardo Ortiz: I just want to start to say thank you to the people from Baltimore. Thank you for all your love, all your support. I think we are stronger now. And for me, just very thankful to see how the Baltimore city has opened their arms for us.
Quiero agradecer a la gente de Baltimore por todo el cariño, la solidaridad que nos han dado y nos han mostrado que este es nuestro hogar y que somos parte de esta comunidad.
And for the people who are listening, please call your representatives. We have the opportunity to have an immigrant reform, but we need your support. We need to push the politicians because they are doing nothing. And for more than 30 years we don’t have any immigrant reform. And why it’s important for our community? Because for that paper that say you are a citizen that’s the only reason why so many people don’t have access to the healthcare, they don’t have access to the school, they don’t have access for many, many, many things. And if you really want to support our community, we need to have citizenship for all and we need to have the same rights for everyone. So please call your representatives, call our organization. We can find us and Facebook as CASPI, and we want to educate your community. And you are welcome to support us in any way. So thank you, and share this information because we need more people to know the reality that is facing our community.
Y, por favor, si tú estás escuchando esta entrevista, llama a tus representantes, porque es momento de que tengamos una reforma migratoria. Han pasado más de 30 años en este país sin una reforma migratoria y el papel para nuestras familias significa tener acceso a educación, tener acceso a salud, tener acceso a mejores oportunidades de vida. Y también nos pueden seguir en nuestra página de Facebook como CAPSI. Nos encuentras así en Facebook, es C-A-P-S-I, Centro de Apoyo para la Superación del Inmigrante, y estamos recibiendo cualquier tipo de apoyo, sea para que conozca de nuestro proyecto o si quieres venir y acompañarnos a recorrer las calles de Baltimore.
Baltimore, you are welcome to join us. That’s it. Thank you.
Carlos Crespo:  Yo, por último, quiero darte las gracias a ti por darnos la oportunidad de llevar el mensaje a las personas que no saben lo que ha pasado aquí en Baltimore o que hagan conciencia.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And in closing, I want to thank you for helping us spread the word to those that don’t know what’s happening here in Baltimore so that they are aware.
Carlos Crespo:  Y esperemos que realmente nuestra comunidad aprenda de las tragedias y que nos unamos como comunidad.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And let’s hope that our community learns from tragedies and we learn to get together or work together.
Carlos Crespo: Porque si nosotros nos apoyamos como comunidad, podemos cambiar muchas cosas en la política.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Because if we support each other as a community, we will be able to change a lot of things in politics.
Carlos Crespo: Porque era lo que decía tu hija hace rato, que los hispanos nos tiramos con los mismos hispanos. Y no podemos avanzar porque ya nos tienen envidia o porque ya nos tienen coraje. Entonces, necesitamos cambiar eso.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Because it’s what your daughter was saying earlier, that Hispanics envy other Hispanics and we don’t come together. We’re jealous, we don’t support each other, and we have to change that.
Carlos Crespo: Y sí podemos hacer grandes cosas, pero es unirnos, alzar una sola voz. Aquí estamos en un país, el país se lleva en el corazón, pero estamos luchando porque queremos a América.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And we can do a lot of things if we come together and we become one voice. We have our home countries in our heart, but right now we’re in this country and our country now is America.
Carlos Crespo: Y sí se puede. Y muchas gracias una vez más.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And yes, we can. And thank you once again.
Lucia Islas: Yo quiero darle las gracias a ti y a tu familia, por haberte tomado el tiempo de hablar con nosotros, al Taquito Mexicano, por habernos permitido estar aquí. Pero también quiero darle las gracias a la ciudad de Baltimore, al gobierno, a las iglesias, a los hospitales, a los voluntarios que están ayudando allá en la búsqueda de los cuerpos. Yo sé que la ciudad está haciendo lo posible por encontrarlos a los que faltan, pero también tenemos que entender que no es fácil. Esto toma tiempo. Quiero darle las gracias al consulado de México, que siempre está trabajando con nosotros, que nos escucha. Y sobre todo, quiero darle de corazón las condolencias a las familias. Y quiero que sepan, como dijo nuestra compañera: «Los reporteros, la ayuda se va a ir, pero nosotros estamos aquí, CAPSI está aquí, nos pueden buscar y pueden preguntar». Y nosotros sí empezamos a ayudar del principio al fin, hasta que nosotros veamos, no les vamos a prometer nada, pero sí les vamos a ayudar a buscar esos recursos.
Now I’m going to say it in English. I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us. I also want to thank the city of Baltimore, the government, the churches, the hospitals, and the volunteers who are helping there in the search for the bodies. I know that the city is doing everything possible to find those who are missing but I also know that it’s not easy, that it takes time. Thanks to the Mexican Consulate, to the Red Cross for everything that it’s doing for us. And the most important thing: I want the family knows that, yes, like Susana said, the reporters and everyone will be gone, but this is not going to finish. We are going to be here. Please look for us. I’m Lupita Rojas on Facebook. I’m the president of Comité Latino de Baltimore. I’m also part of CAPSI. And look for us. Look Susana, look for Ricardo, look for Carlos. If you know me, you know that I really, really do what I said. Please reach out to us because we are going to help you from the beginning to the end. Thank you.
Por favor, aquellas familias que sufrieron esos terribles pérdidas, por favor, búsquenos a nosotros. Nosotros no somos los héroes, pero nosotros sí somos tal vez, como dijo aquí nuestro compañero, y perdón que nos estemos poniendo esos nombres, pero sí tenemos sueños para nuestros hispanos y queremos ayudarlos. Búsquenos porque les vamos a ayudar en lo más mínimo, pero eso sí, van a tener un fuerte abrazo de nosotros. Gracias.
Victor: Yo también reitero las gracias.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) I join everybody in saying thank you.
Victor: Bien contento por haber conocido personas que no había visto.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) I am very happy to meet people that I had not met before.
Victor: Nosotros, a lo mejor, no podemos estar con tiempo ayudando, pero las puertas de este negocio está abierto para lo que necesiten.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And maybe we don’t have the time to be helping, but the doors to this business are open to whatever you need.
Victor: Les aseguro que va a haber muchos negocios que van a querer aportar y nos apuntamos nosotros.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) I assure you that there’s going to be many, many businesses that are going to want to help. And we signed up too
Victor: Gracias por conocer a gente que usa su tiempo, sabemos que tienen cosas que hacer.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Thank you to the people that are donating their time. We know that they have things to do.
Victor: En cambio, usan su tiempo para repartirlas en diferentes cosas que la gente necesita.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And in exchange, they use their time to do things to help the people that need it.
Victor: Orgullosamente, son hispanos, igual que yo.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) And I am very proud that they are Hispanic, just like me.
Victor: Y gracias a todos.
(Translation, Susana Barrios) Thank you. Thank you, everyone
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